Pendolino derailment at Greyrigg

[Julian G]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/6391633.stm


1S83 17.15 Euston - Glasgow has derailed at Lambrigg. Confirmed injuries. Unit 390033.
Ta Gwot

[joeholmes]

what time did this happen?

[westcoaster]

from me and everyone i hope all are ok, and not to badly hurt, my thoughts for the train crew and passengers.

[yorkie]

It's this (http://www.livedepartureboards.co.uk/ldb/train.aspx?C=GLC&T=CRSTRS&J=35882&Y=A&P=PRE&R=0&A=0)train, which was on time, so approx 1 hour ago, must be just north of Oxenholme.

What's the line speed in the area? Would it have been tilting? Sounds like it could be very bad :(

update: 4 carriages on their side :(

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a5/tubechallenger/pendo1.jpg

[Hentis]

And as on cue the rolling news stations are stroking themselves to get your pics or video. And then they will start dishing out all the wrong information as they usually do.

Hope no one is seriously hurt.

Cheers

Hentis

[Tom]

Felt like about 110mph when going southbound through that area in August.

[Rich]

Dear or dear. Apparently, according to eye whitnesses, it "seemed to hit something, jolt, then slide down the side of an embankment" :shock:

BBC News 24 now...

[Tom]

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a5/tubechallenger/pendo.jpg

[Jordy]

Doesn't sound good, hope there are no serious injuries :(

[yorkie]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/6391633.stm

[westcoaster]

would that be a glasgow/scotish train crew

[thefab442]

What happens if this requires the grounding of the entire Pendolino fleet... unlikely I know, but it would be interesting if so.

Also, if it was a tilt failure, again unlikely, could that mean 221s have to be grounded too?


On a more serious note, hope nobody is hurt or scarred by this incident.

[Tom]

Preston I'd guess.

[class 313]

Just for anyone who does not now what a Virgin Pendolino looks like...
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/4397/pendorb3.jpg

[westcoaster]

Preston I'd guess.

thought the accident was north of preston, would asume its a scotish crew going home

[Tom B]

Unfortunately, no doubt the media will begin wild speculation before anything is even established.

[Hentis]

What happens if this requires the grounding of the entire Pendolino fleet... unlikely I know, but it would be interesting if so.

Also, if it was a tilt failure, again unlikely, could that mean 221s have to be grounded too?


On a more serious note, hope nobody is hurt or scarred by this incident.

I think that Virign and Network Rail will want to find that out as soon ans poosible and will possibly sending some Virgin / NR personel up to speak to the driver if he's not to injured, to try and find out what exactly went wrong. If it is deemed to pull the Pendo fleet on safety ground it would be intresting to see what Viring can conjure up, possibly borrow in some HST sets or an 87 and coach fleet. Or as we heard the BBC's Rail Expert Christian Wolmar it will be utter chaos. As to the point we dont even know what happened then I think its a little hard to see for the time being what will happen.

Cheers

Hentis

[First ScotRail]

I thought that as well as it is the second last service out of euton to glasgow.

[Hentis]

Unfortunately, no doubt the media will begin wild speculation before anything is even established.


Taken from Sky News website what can I say.... But utter Fantastic,


"Cumbria ambulance service says the train was six carriages long and the second carriage has slipped down an embankment."


Where'd the other 3 go?

Cheers

Hentis

[175001]

Injuries are reported, but not any deaths. Hope everybody is ok, im supposed to be on a Pendo on Monday!

[Tom]

Don't expect to be on one....the whole fleet will probably be withdrawn if anything averse is found!

[westcoaster]

Virgin Trains can confirm that there has been an incident this evening between Oxenholme and Penrith involving the 1715 London Euston to Glasgow service and that emergency services are in attendance.

We will confirm further details as soon as they become available.
from the virgin website

[Chaz]

Let's stick to facts and not add stupid comments like "I hope it happens to all Pendolinos" or anything along those lines....

The Train hit something on the Track according to the BBC so it's unlikely that Tilt had anything to do with it.

Injuries reported but no deaths, thankfully.

[mbonwick]

For the record, the accident occured NORTH of Oxenholme.
It's quite scary as I only live 5 miles from Oxenholme/Kendal.
The WCML has been shut.



And last, but most certainly NOT least, I hope no-one is seriously injured.

[Hentis]

Not going to well for the virgin brand at the moment.

Virgin Media Vs Rupert Murdoch!!
Virigin Trains vs Gravity!!

It would be intresting to see how well the the contstruction of the train held up.

I was told it was 390033 City of Glasgow.

Cheers

Hentis

[Tom B]

*places admin hat on*

As Chaz pointed out, can we not do the 'wild speculation' and stick to the facts - not extrapolating, what you think might have happened, how all the pendos are going to be withdrawn etc.

*removes admin hat*

[Turbostar]

Don't the Pendolino's, as with all new trains I believe, have black boxes? If that's the case, they'll be able to identify what the cause was.

Mart

[voyagerdude220]

And last, but most certainly NOT least, I hope no-one is seriously injured.

I off course agee with you, but there again how couldn't you do so?

I'm just hoping that the very strong, well-built body of the Pendo has taken most of the force of the impact/derailment, and that the reports that there hasn't been any fatalities remains so.

[westcoaster]

the black box can tell you about speed and suchlike but not broken rails or objects on the line

[voyagerdude220]

Don't the Pendolino's, as with all new trains I believe, have black boxes? If that's the case, they'll be able to identify what the cause was.

Mart

Good question.

I'm sure they have the system which records on the TMS what the driver does e.g. how they use the throttle, brake- basically records every single thing they do.

[Hentis]

Don't the Pendolino's, as with all new trains I believe, have black boxes? If that's the case, they'll be able to identify what the cause was.

Mart

Yes.

Hentis

[westcoaster]

23 February 2007, 22:25
Statement Issue No: 1

Statement from Virgin Trains


Virgin Trains can confirm that a serious incident took place earlier today near Lambrigg, north of Oxenholme in Cumbria.

The incident took place shortly after 20:00.

The train involved was the 17:15 from London Euston to Glasgow Central, operated by Virgin Trains.

Virgin Trains staff are currently working with the emergency services to ensure that those involved in this incident are given every assistance.

All Virgin Trains services between Preston and Carlisle have been suspended until further notice. Alternative arrangements for customers, using road vehicles, are being made. We advise passengers to ring National Rail Enquiries on 08457 48 49 50 before commencing their journey.

An emergency services number for friends or relatives concerned about anybody travelling on the train will be issued as soon as possible.

Virgin Trains will keep you updated as we receive further information.

[Chaz]

OTMR (On Train Management Recording), black box if you like records, Speed, Acceleration, Braking Force, Traction Lever Position and a few other bits related to the TASS (Tilt) but doesn't record track condition because there isn't any real provision onboard the train to record track conditions anyway.

[Turbostar]

the black box can tell you about speed and suchlike but not broken rails or objects on the line

I know that :roll:, but can't it tell if it's component failure, i.e. tilting mech., motors, transformer, etc.?

[Nat the Ned]

Good question.

I'm sure they have the system which records on the TMS what the driver does e.g. how they use the throttle, brake- basically records every single thing they do.


EVERYTHING that operates on NR now has OTMR (a black box), the most advanced record loads of stuff, speed, braking, horn use, even what lights are displayed on the front of the train. However as pointed out, it wont show if there was something on the track or broken rail etc!!

[westcoaster]

I know that :roll:, but can't it tell if it's component failure, i.e. tilting mech., motors, transformer, etc.?

sorry, should imagion so,but not to shore.

[Chaz]

I know that :roll:, but can't it tell if it's component failure, i.e. tilting mech., motors, transformer, etc.?

That would be on the TMS (Train Management System) as it reports faults with the train.

[Derek Kaye]

News24 has just said it was 95mph

[Turbostar]

National Rail website: All services between Preston & Carlisle suspended until further notice (obviously), northbound trains nearby set back to Preston, all Scotrail sleeper services have been cancelled tonight. Passengers from Aberdeen, Inverness and Fort William will be conveyed to Edinburgh where a replacement coach service will run to London. Passengers from Glasgow will also be conveyed to London by coach.

Mart

[Chaz]

I've just read that a 57 would tow them over S&C for tonight? But I've got another conflicting message saying Weekend Engineering is now taking place.

Coach to London? Ouch.

[Turbostar]

Can't Caledonian Sleeper services not run via ECML?

Mart

[First ScotRail]

Not if the drivers for the night arnt trained, plus its easier to go by bus from fsr's point

[David]

I've just had a quick thought. Virgin can't divert around the accident either.

S&C closed between Hellafield and Carlisle.
Hope Valley closed
Tyne Valley closed between Hexham and Newcastle.

Going to be a fun weekend for passengers....

[Derek Kaye]

any reason why they can't use the cumbrian coast, at limited capacity?

[voyagerdude220]

I've just had a quick thought. Virgin can't divert around the accident either.

S&C closed between Hellafield and Carlisle.
Hope Valley closed
Tyne Valley closed between Hexham and Newcastle.

Going to be a fun weekend for passengers....

Yeah thats what i said on rail chat-

But i heard something go through the Ribble Valley at around northbound 20:20, but hadn't heard about this until I saw Yorkies note on MSN at about 21:45.

NRES states that all trains in the area returned to the last station they called at before getting to the Oxenholme area, to terminate at that last location.

Nationalrail Enquires

1810 Glasgow - Birmingham will go back to Carlisle an additional service will run as 2100 Preston - Birmingham.
1852 Edinburgh - Birmingham will go back to Carlisle
2010 Glasgow - Manchester will terminate at Carlisle
1446 Bournemouth - Dunbar will set back to Preston
1525 Plymouth - Glasgow has terminated at Preston.
-
22:16 All Scotrail sleeper services have been cancelled tonight. Passengers from Aberdeen, Inverness and Fort William will be conveyed to Edinburgh where a replacement coach service will run to London. Passengers from Glasgow will also be conveyed to London by coach.

Customers from London will be conveyed by coach to Edinburgh and Glasgow where onward train connections will be available

[Mintona]

I just hope no-one is killed after, and the good news is it currently sounds that way. Scary that I used the line last Friday!

[voyagerdude220]

any reason why they can't use the cumbrian coast, at limited capacity?

There must be a reason why, because when the WCML is closed between Preston/Lancaster and Carlisle, for engineering works, I get them go passed my house near Blackburn. (Unless the access to/from the coast is cut off as well?)

I'm not complaining about diversions though, because they're the favourite time of the year for myself.

[voyagerdude220]

I just hope no-one is killed after, and the good news is it currently sounds that way. Scary that I used the line last Friday!

It's scary that i was going to do the [FC] 09:18 Preston-Glasgow, 12:10 Glasgow-Birmingham, 16:33 Birmingham-Leamington last Wedinesday, for bashing and relative purposes, but the trip was moved to Friday, and a straight Preston-Manchester-Leamington bash was called instead.

I've only done the WCML north of Preston 3 or 4 times, all on 220/221s.

[Turbostar]

Just refresh my memory, how can I get onto chat?

Mart

[Derek Kaye]

Access to the coast is via Carnforth.. I don't think virgin drivers are trained, but they could put extra coaches on Northern's services.. dont know if voyagers / pendos are cleared for the route.

[David]

IIRC, Pendolinos and Voyagers are not cleared for the Cumbrian Coast, (probably because of clearence issues).

[Derek Kaye]

if pendos get grounded (whatever the term is on the railways), i've seen 47's + coaches on the coast.

[voyagerdude220]

Sorry to say this at this time of not knowing if everyone will be OK, but Daily Mail has published this piece on the internet:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=438182&in_page_id=1770&ico=Homepage&icl=TabModule&icc=NEWS&ct=5

I think all of the other newspapers have as well.

Notice the odd looking blue livery on the unit they used for the story

[westcoaster]

now saying driver is off the train (extracrated) does not sound to good

[Derek Kaye]

Just said that the OHLE is still on!!! :S

[westcoaster]

Just said that the OHLE is still on!!! :S

highly dout it once it is yanked down it will trip out the power, plus the e.c.o would have dealt with that

[Derek Kaye]

that's what i thought.. but there may be some residual current

[westcoaster]

if it is grounded then im not to sure

[voyagerdude220]

that's what i thought.. but there may be some residual current

I was wondering how the train lights were on the Pendo, having seen the picture in the media.

[westcoaster]

I was wondering how the train lights were on the Pendo, having seen the picture in the media.

train batts i think normally about 30 mins before they run out

[Turbostar]

Can someone tell me how to get onto rail chat please?

Mart

[westcoaster]

Can someone tell me how to get onto rail chat please?

Mart

railchatdotcodotuk

350 last about 45 mins of the top off my head

[Tom]

Or, if you're able to hit . then

www.railchat.co.uk/phpBB2/ ;)

[voyagerdude220]

Can someone tell me how to get onto rail chat please?

Mart

Sorry i originally thought you meant the chat function.

[Turbostar]

Sorry i originally thought you meant the chat function.

Aye, as in IM, IRC, I believe that's what was meant.

Mart

[voyagerdude220]

Aye, as in IM, IRC, I believe that's what was meant.

Mart

O in that case i don't know

I originally remember it being a menu option or something-

Mods should know?

[Turbostar]

I thought there used to be a chat room type thing for members?

Mart

[Tom]

On here?

Used to be ... not at the moment. Not really used.

[voyagerdude220]

I thought there used to be a chat room type thing for members?

Mart

Unless your talking about PM's -

Private Messaging system?

[ChrisCooper]

From some pictures on BBC news, it seems to be 390033 City of Glasgow, since car number 39133 was viable. This would be the back coach, which was clearly derailed but fairly upright, but the next carriage looked as if the front was down the embankment.

[Turbostar]

They won't say anything yet until they're sure what happened, otherwise the media will have a field day.

Mart

[Turbostar]

Anyone else chatting on MSN?

Mart

[1D53]

Watching Sky and they are trying to suggest allsorts of crap.

B*tards!

[David]

Watching Sky and they are trying to suggest allsorts of crap.

Always the case :roll:

[Derek Kaye]

BBC *seem* to be sticking to facts

[87015]

Just got in,
sky news showing very dark pictures and claiming coach being suspended by 'power cable'. Can't see much but looks like maybe bogies?

Hopefully no fatalities/serious injuries.

[westcoaster]

virgin spokesman says all pax off the train *umm*

[Peter B]

http://i15.tinypic.com/477xpaq.gif All unconfirmed:

Because of an OHLE problem extrication has been impossible and hence the OHLE is still live. This is presumably why only one coach is accessible.

One or more couplers have completely given way and the train has split.

4 critically injured, 390033 a very likely write off.

[westcoaster]

http://i15.tinypic.com/477xpaq.gif All unconfirmed:

Because of an OHLE problem extrication has been impossible and hence the OHLE is still live. This is presumably why only one coach is accessible.

One or more couplers have completely given way and the train has split.

4 critically injured, 390033 a very likely write off.

as said before power would have cut off straight away

[Max]

Just got home, this is terrible! :( Best wishes to all the families involved, hope none of the injuries are serious.

[Derek Kaye]

http://i15.tinypic.com/477xpaq.gif All unconfirmed:

Because of an OHLE problem extrication has been impossible and hence the OHLE is still live. This is presumably why only one coach is accessible.


OHLE was not live, but ambulance staff were unaware that it had been turned off (and lets face it, who would walk up and test it). there was supposedly a delay in communications from NR to the emergency services

[westcoaster]

bbc saying all pax off the train and no fatalities, thank good, speedy recoveries to all injured

[Derek Kaye]

just found this image on the BBC

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42608000/jpg/_42608629_train_pa.jpg

[westcoaster]

that will be the back off the train, the front looks to be further off the track, and the back still on or about the line

press conference at 02:00

[Derek Kaye]

Makes sense.. 1st class is normally at the London end

[Tom]

Bl**dy hell, live camera shot of a crumpled Pendo car there...

[Derek Kaye]

Live pictures now on BBC... one coach sticking up into the air

[westcoaster]

showing film off the train now on news 24, jesus how lucky?

[westcoaster]

1 dead according to news 24 R.I.P, from all on railuk and my self condolencies to the family and friends of the dead person

[Derek Kaye]

One fatality at Lancaster

[David]

Rest in peace. :(

[Tom]

R.I.P

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6391633.stm

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42608000/jpg/_42608643_railcrash2033.jpg

:(

[Tom]

If anyone is still watching News 24, it won't be much use as they're now simulcasting with BBC World.

[Derek Kaye]

Theres still the press conference at 2am to look forwards to.

[Tom]

True.

[tv pres fan mode]

Depends how much BBC World want to pick up on it though, as basically that broadcast can now be seen by about 53m people across the world.


[/tv pres fan mode]

[Derek Kaye]

Just been a shot of the front coach on it's side

[Death]

Hail all! :sad:
First things first, my sincere condolences to the family and friends of all those involved in this tragedy...And wishing a speedy recovery to anyone injured. Our prayers are with you at this time.

I only just found out about this an hour ago when logging out of Hotmail and seeing the article header on the MSN main page. I did spot a couple of Pendolinos on the telly down at the pub earlier last night at about 22:15 or so...But there was too much noise to hear anything, and I just passed it off as a report on more financial troubles at VT! :shock:

Anyway, I am rather freaked out by this incident for two distinct reasons concerning things that happened yesterday: I managed to find and download a time-lapse video of a Pendolino drivers view from Rugby to Glasgow, and was planning to use it along with some APT-P footage and a Moonsorrow track to create a full-on Hyperspeed train video. The visualisation speed of this video is about 5,000mph or so, and a low-res version can be viewed Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHbLBhANLY8).
Anyone who knows me well enough will know of my dream of an era of hyperspeed trains, capable of doing San Francisco > New York in 35 minutes...And how such a dream unfavourably relates to this kind of incident. :|


At about 16:00 yesterday, a thought drifted into my mind about how, out of all the rail companies out there, Virgin were the only one to have never endured (To my knowlege) a severe incident...Or indeed, anything worse than bad engineering works and train software problems. Now, almost exactly 28 hours later, what happens? :cry:
Back to the time-lapse video that I was watching: This happens to follow the same route as the derailed train in question, and I've gone through it and taken a few screen grabs of the line in that area. Sadly the screen-grabs don't show too much (The frames in between are transitional, and un-viewable out of context) but they give you an idea of the line layout. Just before the incident site, there are two sets of points (Crossovers) which would tally in with MSNs report that a points failure might be to blame...Although this is a site that also puts a "Pendolino" caption on a photo of a four-car Voyager! :D

http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/4378/wcmloxenholme01qi9.jpg
Points before derailment site. About a mile before this point is a 95mph sign.

http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/2296/wcmloxenholme02an4.jpg
Following right hander and (3 aspect?) signal.

http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/2968/wcmloxenholme03ug1.jpg
Entering the curve. Note 4° train cant and ground dropping away on left.

http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/4541/wcmloxenholme04ln5.jpg
Further around the same curve. Note No Refuges sign in left cess, indicating a possible drop.

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/8453/wcmloxenholme05hb3.jpg
Probable derailment site. Note steep drop on outside of bend. Train is now at it's 6° maximum tilt, although an APT-P would be leaning at 9° here whilst traversing the bend at the same speed.

I'm now praying to the Gods like it's going out of fashion...Not only for those affected by this incident, but also praying that my thoughs, emotions and actions yesterday aren't connected with this incident at all... :|

Farewell...And may no-one else be lost to this tragedy... :sad:
>> Colin B <<

[carlwestwood]

update: one fatality. An elderly lady.

my thoughts go with her relatives :(

[Death]

Hail again!
Just swung by the VT website and they have a new statement (Issue nr. 3) out: Urgent Information
24 February 2007, 04:35
Statement Issue No: 3
Statement from Virgin Trains

Serious incident in Cumbria

It is with deep regret that Virgin Trains can confirm that there has been one fatality in an accident that took place shortly after 20:00 on Friday 23 February 2007 near Lambrigg, north of Oxenholme in Cumbria.

The train involved was the 17:15 from London Euston to Glasgow Central, operated by Virgin Trains.

The first thoughts of everyone at Virgin Trains are with the families and loved ones of those who have lost their lives or been injured in this terrible accident. We will do whatever we can to offer assistance in the days ahead.

The emergency services have issued the following number for friends or relatives concerned about anybody travelling on the train: 0800 056 0146 (00 44 20 7158 0198 from overseas).

Trains travelling towards Edinburgh and Glasgow will terminate at Lancaster while those travelling from Glasgow/Edinburgh will terminate at Lockerbie. Replacement coaches will link the two stations.So sadly there is one confirmed fatality. Obviously I'm glad that it isn't one-hundred fatalities, but one life lost in an incident like this is one too many in my opinion.

Farewell... :sad:
>> Colin B <<

[jamie_]

Just Had a Press Briefing on BBC News 24, Police Inpector in charge has confirmed that the Points are central to the investigation.

[Hentis]

Its a shame that someone died and my thoughts go out to the elderly lady and her family.

So no problem with Tilt mechanism thats good Richard B can breathe a sigh of relief. As to the points the media are already stroking on that there were routine maintenance in "that area" last week. Which we know does not contsitute that it was on the set of points in question but the media are putting 2+2 together and coming up with 75!!!

Want to se bad track well take a lookie here!!! (http://www.hentis-rail.co.uk/PooleGallery/2007/Poolejan-june07/Poolejan-june07pge3.html) The state of just some of the sleepers through Poole Railway station. Email was sent to Network Rail and asked to look at the photos and to call back last week but nothing.

As to what will happen to the unit looks like it could well be an early retirement for 390033. Whether repairs will be santioned or its too badly damaged and uneconomical for repair could we be seeing a new 390054?

Cheers

Hentis

[class 313]

The coaches have stayed in very good shape considering what has happened! Maybe this has shown how safe Pendolinos are and how strong they are.

Today, I will be on the southern WCML (Watford - Euston) And will be making a tribute video of Pendolinos...

[Clockhouse]

I think we can all agree that this "plastic" has a major part to play in the thankfully small number of casualties. Especially judging by the shots above!

[87015]

Tragic that there has been a fatality - RIP.
Hope those still in hospital pull through...

Just glad it was such an empty service, half full at most from estimates.

[mbonwick]

Yes, apparently the pendolino carriges are supposed not to crumple, and therefore preserve occupant space.

My condolances go to the family of the dead. R.I.P



On a slightly more positive note, the embankment is not as big as I was lead to believe

[Captain Speaking]

I remember the Colwich crash back in the 1980s where the BR Mk 111s stood up remrkably well to high speed impact. Looks from these pictures like the Pendelino coaches are at least as good, which is reassuring.

Very sad there has been a fatality, but considering this was a high speed derailment, down an embankment, of a pretty full train, it could have been a lot worse.

I wonder how Virgin services will ne impacted by loss of this set? You can't just buy a new one like you'd replace a crashed car.

Very sad

RIP.

CS.

[Clockhouse]

The driver of the train is said to be one of the seriously injured. He was locked in the cab but freed around one hour after the fire service arrived. He is said to have suffered a number of injuries including head and neck but was able to talk to the rescuers whilst being freed.

[Humberside]

Firstly condolences to families and friends of the person who died

And I think its amazing how only one person has died. The scene looks awful. But this is down to our excellent train design

I see Mr Crow of the RMT is already speculating the cause is similar to Potters bar. In which case it is deeply suspicious.
Nigel Harris of RAIL has just been having a go at him on Sky News. Apparently Mr Crow didn't even know Network Rail do maintenance in house. Nigel Haris was definetly on 'damage limitation mode' for the railways

How come trains from Scotland at terminating at Lockerbie and not Carlisle? Any chane of the S&C opening up and the engineering works being cancelled?

[voyagerdude220]

Any chane of the S&C opening up and the engineering works being cancelled?

Thats what I want to know, as I'm currently at my mates house near Blackburn again.

During the night, I spotted a Super Market go southbound (with lights on the inside the train) at around 00:45, before which a slow moving, very squeeky freight train at 00:10.

Anyone know which 221s came through?

I was wondering why the engineering work along the S&C, and Lockerbie areas couldn't be suspended, since there's probably huge disruption at Preston, Carlisle etc. (I haven't actually been into Preston yet however)

My feelings and condolences go to the family who's lost a relative in this accident. Although, IMO It feels very bad to use the term "accident" at this stage.

How's the driver, TM, RSM, and FC hosts who were all on the train?

I believe the 17:15 ex Euston is a Pendolino Primo service, meaning the staff were probably rushing around, serving food in FC.

[Clockhouse]

Richard Branson has just named and praised the driver.

[voyagerdude220]

Richard Branson has just named and praised the driver.

Where?

Like i said, I do hope all the staff and pax go away without serious injuries, but like we have heard, there's unfortunately a single fatality.

I don't want to sound bad, but If this happened 10 years earlier, and didn't involve a Pendolino, or perhaps a Voyager, it would've been far, far worse.

As seen, at Ufton Nervot, the HST's buffet unfortunately jack-knived, splitting the train, and splitting the train.

I know the Pendo has done this, but not on the same scale.

[ChrisCooper]

We've had similar accidents in the past with various train types that have involved little or no fatalities. Anyone remember Colwich where one train smashed into another at 100mph with the only fatalities being the driver, and that involved Mk1, 2 and 3, and there have been nuerous high speed derailments with little or no fatalities. At Purley a Mk1 EMU hit another train and fell down an embankment (much bigger than this) with just 4 fatalities. In the fairly high fatality derailments at Potters Bar, Ufton Nervet and Polmont the fact that at least one coach was flung violantly around was the main reason for the deaths, although in all 3 cases coaches remained largely intact. That's not saying the Pendolino didn't stand up well, but no more than most types would have. If anything though, we've probably got the relativly light loading, in particular at the front which was most effected, to thank for the very low death toll and fairly low number of serious injuries.

[voyagerdude220]

We've had similar accidents in the past with various train types that have involved little or no fatalities. Anyone remember Colwich where one train smashed into another at 100mph with the only fatalities being the driver, and that involved Mk1, 2 and 3, and there have been nuerous high speed derailments with little or no fatalities. At Purley a Mk1 EMU hit another train and fell down an embankment (much bigger than this) with just 4 fatalities. In the fairly high fatality derailments at Potters Bar, Ufton Nervet and Polmont the fact that at least one coach was flung violantly around was the main reason for the deaths, although in all 3 cases coaches remained largely intact. That's not saying the Pendolino didn't stand up well, but no more than most types would have. If anything though, we've probably got the relativly light loading, in particular at the front which was most effected, to thank for the very low death toll and fairly low number of serious injuries.


When i used this very same train in FC, between London and Preston, it was quite busy. I did get a seat though. The 16:46 ex Euston has also been overcrowded before, due to TM annoyingly having a FC coach declassified when i was on it.

[matt]

When i used this very same train in FC, between London and Preston, it was quite busy. I did get a seat though. The 16:46 ex Euston has also been overcrowded before, due to TM annoyingly having a FC coach declassified when i was on it.

So you would rather standard class was dangerously over-crowded. Just because you travel first class stop thinking you are better than everyone else :mad:

[voyagerdude220]

So you would rather standard class was dangerously over-crowded. Just because you travel first class stop thinking you are better than everyone else :mad:

Sorry I forgot to mention the crucial fact that when we walked passed the declassified carriage, and SC, at Preston, it was quiet.

SC was not over crowded, and this was confirmed by the FC hosts, who were annoyed with the confusion, with whether it had been declassified or not.

I never said i'm better than everyone else in my post at all did I? :S [where's the confused icon?]

I just think that people should be aware of Value First singles, which could be used, at a similar price than the saver.

[Nick W]

Am I right in thinking the site is after Docker's Graft but before Grayrigg loops?

http://img87.imageshack.us/my.php?image=midlandpage28et2.jpg
Sorry i rotated it, saved it and uploaded it but it seems to have "forgotten" the rotation.

[Richard Armstrong]

We've had similar accidents in the past with various train types that have involved little or no fatalities. Anyone remember Colwich where one train smashed into another at 100mph with the only fatalities being the driver, and that involved Mk1, 2 and 3, and there have been nuerous high speed derailments with little or no fatalities. At Purley a Mk1 EMU hit another train and fell down an embankment (much bigger than this) with just 4 fatalities. In the fairly high fatality derailments at Potters Bar, Ufton Nervet and Polmont the fact that at least one coach was flung violantly around was the main reason for the deaths, although in all 3 cases coaches remained largely intact. That's not saying the Pendolino didn't stand up well, but no more than most types would have. If anything though, we've probably got the relativly light loading, in particular at the front which was most effected, to thank for the very low death toll and fairly low number of serious injuries.
Thank you for putting it into perspective Chris.

[Craig]

I just think that people should be aware of Value First singles, which could be used, at a similar price than the saver.
They're nowhere near as flexible as a saver though.

I don't think I'll be participating in this thread any more for the time being. I'd rather wait until the facts are established rather than randomly speculating and worrying about train numbers as some people have been doing.

My thoughts go to the injured and the family of the person who died.

[Peter B]

Cue the usual "trains are dangerous, no wonder more people tend to fly or drive" etc. rants. Hopefully the aftermath won't be a partial repeat of Potters Bar i.e. nationwide disruption as all the infrastructure is checked under paranoia that faults are more widespread, nationwide apprehension brought about by media coverage that the railways are unsafe, etc.

Although I obviously didn't want to share it, the initial speculation that I heard from the site at about midnight was that it was a points failure.

[Mojo]

I was on the 0850 from Euston to Birmingham New Street this morning. It was terminating at Lancaster (and the following services at New Street were too) with buses from Lancaster onwards.

The sleeper was sat in platform one with the loco at the platform end, so I don't know if it actually ran.

Cue the usual "trains are dangerous, no wonder more people tend to fly or drive" etc. rants. Hopefully the aftermath won't be a partial repeat of Potters Bar i.e. nationwide disruption as all the infrastructure is checked under paranoia that faults are more widespread, nationwide apprehension brought about by media coverage that the railways are unsafe, etc.

Interestingly, the majority of comments on BBC's 'Have Your Say' seem quite positive.

[Peter B]

Interestingly, the majority of comments on BBC's 'Have Your Say' seem quite positive.I noticed this too, albeit there were still pockets of "I'm going to stick to my car thankyou very much." Apparently, other than that Bob Crow bloke, the media seem to be somewhat moderated and mature.

I noticed one comment which basically went along the lines of "Branson for PM"

Also, Branson has reported to have said that VWC staff have reviewed 390033 and it may not be a write-off.

[Hentis]

Also, Branson has reported to have said that VWC staff have reviewed 390033 and it may not be a write-off.

It would be intresting to see what they will do. Although if they sanction repairs it would possibly be outta action for some time. If its more cost to repair then to build a new one then I would expect branson to order a new one. Also could we see a temp reformation of an 87 and appropiate stock running for the next few months.

Nine Al Alleys lorries on standby and apparently a temporary road has to be built

Cheers

Hentis

[voyagerdude220]

The sleeper was sat in platform one with the loco at the platform end, so I don't know if it actually ran. .


I didn't hear anything northbound run through the Ribble Valley during the night. I did however hear a freight train just after midnight, and saw a supermarket (2 5-car 221s) s/b at around 00:40.



Interestingly, the majority of comments on BBC's 'Have Your Say' seem quite positive.[/QUOTE]

O I never thought of looking on the bbc website at it, and am surprised that they're positive- i'll have a look now.

[Ascot]

ok don't know if these have been said but i'm in a rush to read 10 pages atm..

If it was a points failure wouldn't the signal not be cleared of interlocking and if it did unlock wouldn't the signal reset, unless it unlocked just after he passed...?

6 coaches? What happened, they leave the 1st class at Euston?

[voyagerdude220]

6 coaches? What happened, they leave the 1st class at Euston?

Nah they just removed all of the FC carriages, bar the kitchen carriage, and held a special free Primo catering service on every train, for all customers. :roll:

[Tom B]

As others have pointed out, it's nice to see that the majority of public comments are positive.

Also - 2002 to 2007, not bad going since the last incident - excluding obviously the ones outside the control of the railways, such as the level crossings.

[voyagerdude220]

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/download/managed_files/sunday_25_Feb_XC_plan-20070224140639.htm

The plan for tomorrows trains.

Mojo- How busy was the 08:50 from Euston this morning?

[adambro]

I see the BBC have managed to screw the map up!

What am I missing?

[Mojo]

Mojo- How busy was the 08:50 from Euston this morning?

Busy - 2 or so people standing in my coach from MK, the last few times I've been on VWC it's been similar - I dread to think what it's like on Sunday evenings.

[175001]

Its a tribute to the Pendo that it withstood such force without suffering substantial damage.

My condolences to the family who have lost a member in this incident. My thoughts are with those who are still critical.

I will travel in full confidence on a Pendolino Monday afernoon!

[inside_edge]

Hi all.
Richard Branson said that the strength of the Pendo reduced the number of fatalities. Apparently the carriages contain roll bars, rather like a racing car.
Does anyone know if Voyager and Super Voyager carriages are built in the same way as I believe 220s/221s were built earlier than 390s?

[175001]

As well as expressing my heartfelt condolences to the families of the people affected in last night's tragic events, I would also like to express my sympathy to the families of the 3 people killed on the A38 near Derby last night, especially as they will be forgotten by the media.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/derbyshire/6392313.stm

And a man was killed on the North Wales Coast line at Llanfairfechan station yesturday afternoon. Its not regarded as a suspicious death though.

It delayed my journey home by 90 mins, but times like that, you don't mind the delay.

[Kris]

I think that we can count ourselves as very lucky that there wasn't a bridge abutment nearby. It could have been an instant stop and a crash like the one at Eschede.

Also nice to hear commendations for the driver (although Richard Branson said at one point that he tried to steer out of the way). Another railway expert said "All express train drivers are heroes" :oops: . My apologies to those of you who only drive locals or freight - they weren't my words.

Hope the driver is not too serious - we often don't survive these things and in my 19 years I've lost 2 colleauges at Bomo. 1 at Clapham - Johnny Rolls and 1 at Holton Heath - Clive Brooker.

[Sprog]

Hi all.
Richard Branson said that the strength of the Pendo reduced the number of fatalities. Apparently the carriages contain roll bars, rather like a racing car.
Does anyone know if Voyager and Super Voyager carriages are built in the same way as I believe 220s/221s were built earlier than 390s?

Yes!

They are all safe and certified.

Do you think in todays Health and Safety overkill socitey that they would be able to run otherwise!!!!!!!!!!???

Please dont go into the General Publics panic mode and start questioning crash durability. 390s, 220s and 221s are all safe to do 125mph and withstand an impact.

Tests and Simulations where done when the classes where built, and today has just shown it in real life.

Thumbs up to the Pendolino and its Builders.

[ChrisCooper]

Just to further put the "wow, Pendolinos are so great to stand up to that" into perspective, take a look at this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Colwich-rail-crash.jpg

In this crash there was only one fatality, the driver of one of the trains. The coaches are crumpled but largely intact (most serious damage is to the ends of the coachs, where crumple zones are on modern stock), the mangled wreck in the centre is one of the locos. Middle right, and the middle of the 3 coaches at almost 90deg to the rails (behind the loco) can be seen some of those awfully dangerous Mk1s. They've come of suprisingly well havn't they. The rest of the coaches are a mix of Mk2 and Mk3. The latter is well proven in accidents, and has recieved significant praise, and the former has also shown to stand up well to accidents. The only real thing that seems to have been significant to survivability in this sort of accident is that the windows remained intact. The fact that they are so small on a Pendolino probably was a big factor. Then again, after numerous similar accidents where passengers have been ejected, the issue of strengthening windows comes up (something that could be done on any type of train), but it's seen as too expensive, and also prevents windows from being used for evacuation, although I have to say, this accident puts that into a whole new light (no windows broken, no ejections, no problems evacuating passengers), although oviously fires are still an issue. Of cource, the other thing that inevitably comes up is seatbelts. Overall though, it must be remembered that you're safer travelling in wooden bodied stock at high speeds with very little safety equipment than you are in the safest car (afterall, as has been said, at least 3 people died in a car crash last night, and that was probably a fairly modern car with quite a lot of safety equipment).
Just on a different subject, one thing that made me really mad last night was when watching Sky News and they were interviewing someone from Virgin Trains. The reporter kept asking him if they were planning to withdraw Pendolinos from service, and of cource he was trying to explain that there was nothing so far to suggest the train was at fault, but the reporter wasn't having it. How stupid can you get. I'm sure if anything had or does come up to suggest the train was at fault, appropriate action will be taken straight away, and if that means taking them out of service, then that will be done.

[Peter B]

Hi all.
Richard Branson said that the strength of the Pendo reduced the number of fatalities. Apparently the carriages contain roll bars, rather like a racing car.
Does anyone know if Voyager and Super Voyager carriages are built in the same way as I believe 220s/221s were built earlier than 390s?

Yes. If you'll recall the Copmanthorpe incident, the front of the train (221136) crumpled up - I don't even think there were that many injuries out of the 70 or 80 onboard.

Having just watched the ITV report, they are saying that the industry's safety record could be reviewed - as this accident occured after there were "it won't happen again" promises after Potters Bar and Hatfield. It is sad that some people anticipate a 100% accident-free safety record.

Also, it is interesting to note that the train (390033), in particular coach 68833 is the same train which derailed at Oxley on the 4th of April last year.

[ChrisCooper]

Well, if anyone promised that things like Hatfield and Potters Bar wouldn't happen again they deserve all the criticism they get. Railways, like everything else, are not without dangers, and whilst danger can be managed and reduced, it can't be eliminated. Accidents always happen, afterall, the railways are run and operated by humans, and humans make mistakes. Even automatic and safety systems where humans are not involved with operation, or at least are monitored and over-ridden if they make mistakes, were still designed and built by humans, and are maintained by humans. Also, however great your safety checks etc are, things will still slip though. The problem with accidents is that it's often a tiny little thing that starts of the chain of events, and often the tiny thing is so small it wouldn't be noticed by even thorough checks, but it works up into a catastrophic failure faster than there is the opertunity for further checks that might notice the developing problem. The best thing for everyone is to be straight about the risks, show how they are managed, and show how despite the risks, railways are still very safe. I was pleased that last night someone mentioned how train accidents are so major since they are so rare, since it's very true.

[Death]

Hail All! :twisted:
As previously, my thoughts are with the deceased, injured and their families at this time. However (Hoping that this isn't considered in bad taste.) I have to say that I am now seeing a much more positive side to this incident. :)

Like someone above correctly said; You wouldn't fair so well if crashing at this speed on the motorway. Come to think of it, I've seen nasty enough crashes with multiple fatalities occur at 40mph on the roads. For only one fatality to occur in such an incident (Remember that the train probabally derailed at the full 95mph speed limit.) is an astounding feat and testiment to the design of the Pendolino. I would also make a guess that the lady who sadly passed away last night may have been crossing between carriages at the time of the incident, meaning that she could have been between crumple zones and outside the protection of the coach roll-cage when the train derailed.

This incident did sadly result in one fatality, but it could have been worse...MUCH worse. A few people have already posted examples of other accidents to say that "The Pendolino isn't that über strong against other stock", but I do wonder what the death/injury figures would have been if this was an HST or APT incident. I know that the HST/Mark III carriages are pretty tough (Which are tougher, Mark III or Pendolino coaches?) and would probabally afford similar protection to passengers, but APT (Mark IV) carriages on the other hand are formed of longitudal aluminium extrusions, which I'm guessing would have buckled and possibly "tin-foiled" in such an accident...Aye, you heard me right - I just said that Pendolinos might be better than APTs as far as crash safety goes. Until a comparative simulation is run (A good idea, considering that the IC225s used on the ECML are all non-tilting APT-U sets.) we won't know for sure...But after seeing those photos above, I would rather have an accident in a Pendolino than an APT! :)

I'm hoping that Virgin don't decide to scrap 390033 as I would say that she's "earnt her wings" in staying in one piece and keeping all-bar-one passenger alive. Although it's possible that she might not be usable in passenger carrying service again, she could easily be used as a driver and staff trainer vehicle, maintenance trainer vehicle, staff transportation, and high-speed high-value goods transportation. I'll say this though, if I'm ever waiting for a Pendolino and 390033 turns up, I'd still ride her without a second thought. 8)

Come to think of it, I know that after this incident many people will be staying away from the railways and taking their cars everywhere. However, this incident has actually encouraged me to use rail transport more. Many would call me stupid for saying things like that, but I now know that if my Pendolino hits the dirt at 150mph, then I've got a much better chance of surviving than doing the same in a car or bus at a quarter of the speed. I'm going to London tonight by rail, and I'll be travelling on a 450 and maybe a 158/9 or 444. I imagine that the trains'll be rather quiet and the roads very busy, but when I get on those trains tonight, I know for sure that I'll be the one travelling in the safest way possible! :)

And after this incident, I'm never going to call a Class 390 a "Pendodildo" ever again. :)

Farewell... :twisted:
>> Colin B. <<

[devon_metro]

Bravo to the Pendolino, shows excellent safety and should re-assure the public. I notice how the front car of a pendo is now a power car :roll:

[Richard Armstrong]

What's with the ridiculous use of kilometres in Metroland's post?

[Peter B]

Metroland is correct, however, some people, notably the ones commenting on the BBC site, don't consider the actual statistics.

Hopefully the aftermath won't be a partial repeat of Potters Bar i.e. nationwide disruption as all the infrastructure is checked under paranoia that faults are more widespread

BBC is now reporting that 6 or 7 hundred sets of points are being checked as a "precaution". A one-off or just the beginning of what is to come? Also, how are they able to identify which sets to inspect?

[thefab442]

Bravo to the Pendolino, shows excellent safety and should re-assure the public. I notice how the front car of a pendo is now a power car :roll:

Well... it does have motors dunnit?

[voyagerdude220]

Hail All! :twisted:

I would also make a guess that the lady who sadly passed away last night may have been crossing between carriages at the time of the incident, meaning that she could have been between crumple zones and outside the protection of the coach roll-cage when the train derailed.

I know for sure that I'll be the one travelling in the safest way possible! :)





When my Mum originally told me about the fact that there's an elderly women who's died, I thought that she could have easily had arthritis (sorry dodgy spelling), and that if she did, her bones could break very easily if she just fell over, let alone be involved in a high-speed crash.

I'm sorry to say this with no dis respect intended what so ever towards the elerly women's family , or everyone else involved, but i think that anyone who is involved in a high-speed 95-mph crash on the adjacent M6 into the central reservation, has a hugely increased chance of dieing in a car, than any, especially Voyagers and Pendolinos which are very modern.



I'll say this though, if I'm ever waiting for a Pendolino and 390033 turns up, I'd still ride her without a second thought. 8)

I think that if 390033 is put back into passenger service, which she could do knowing the crash-worthyness of the Pendo which is currently becoming clear as time goes by, Virgin should perhaps suitably rename her, unless members and VT think that passengers wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot barge pole.



And after this incident, I'm never going to call a Class 390 a "Pendodildo" ever again. :)

Farewell... :twisted:
>> Colin B. <<

Well I've allways been a fan of Voyagers and Pendolinos, and aren't just saying it, now that the crash worthyness of the trains are coming known.

I obviously wasn't a fan because of the crash worthyness, as I didn't know about it at the time of the fleets being introduced.

In a way, once again with no dis respect intended, this accident makes me feel safer about travelling on trains, especially Virgin, simply because of the fact the Pendolino didn't split up as much as the HST at ufton nervot, and the fact that there's somehow only a single fatality at the moment.

I hope to God, that the death toll remains the same, and that all people on the train recover from their traumatic experience.


EDIT: Will VT have an emergency timetable inplace, diverting trains via the S&C next week during weekdays, as the estimate for the WCML to re open, is the Monday after the forthcoming one. 5th March

Edit 2: Couldn't Network Rail suspend the S&C engineering works over next weekend, in order to provide one through route from Birmingham/Preston to Carlisle, and Edinburgh over the weekend?

The reason why trains are being replaced by busses between Lancaster, and Lockerbie, and not Carlisle, is because of the scheduled engineering works. (That was asked on a forum somewhere)

[87015]

because of the fact the Pendolino didn't split up as much as the HST at ufton nervot,

Will you please stop comparing it to Upton Nervot, its a different kind of incident. That was a collision - which subjects whatever train involved to different forces to a derailment like this.

You might have to suffer a MkIII set in near future as a result though.

If possible, could someone with a better understanding of physics/forces etc than me propose how the leading DMS has 'doubled back' on itself?

[Dennis]

....longitudal aluminium extrusions, which I'm guessing would have buckled and possibly "tin-foiled" in such an accident...

Isn't the Pendolino's body, as well as Desiro's, Voyagers and most other modern stock, made from a load bearing aluminium (alloy?)extrusions? The shape is just as important as the ultimate strength of a material in determining how such structures behave on impact.

[voyagerdude220]

Will you please stop comparing it to Upton Nervot, its a different kind of incident. That was a collision - which subjects whatever train involved to different forces to a derailment like this.

You might have to suffer a MkIII set in near future as a result though.


I am comparing the incidents, because one involved an HST, and yesterdays involved a Pendolino.

[Death]

Hail All! :twisted: In a way, once again with no dis respect intended, this accident makes me feel safer about travelling on trains, especially Virgin, simply because of the fact the Pendolino didn't split up as much as the HST at ufton nervot, and the fact that there's somehow only a single fatality at the moment.Hear! Hear! 8)
That's what I was trying to imply in my last post...Obviously my bad way with words is showing itself again... :|

I bet you can guess why my signature has been changed... :notworth:

Farewell... :twisted:
>> Colin B. <<

[Peter B]

Comparing this incident to Upton shows the difference in durability between the two trains. That's not saying MkIII stock is unsafe - Upton showed that the stock was up to withstanding high speed crashes without vast loss of life. However, gave us (the public) really the first insight as to how well built these trains actually are. The train sides are strong and well secure, the windows are strengthened - had the sides crumpled then we would have probably seen further fatalities. The driver's life was probably saved by the shear strength of the body of the cab - I read one report commenting on how difficult it is to actually break into the cab or deform it in any way - given that HST cabs are, I heard, made partly of wood.

I trust anything made by Bombardier.

[voyagerdude220]

Comparing this incident to Upton shows the difference in durability between the two trains. That's not saying MkIII stock is unsafe - Upton showed that the stock was up to withstanding high speed crashes without vast loss of life. However, gave us (the public) really the first insight as to how well built these trains actually are. The train sides are strong and well secure, the windows are strengthened - had the sides crumpled then we would have probably seen further fatalities. The driver's life was probably saved by the shear strength of the body of the cab - I read one report commenting on how difficult it is to actually break into the cab or deform it in any way - given that HST cabs are, I heard, made partly of wood.

I trust anything made by Bombardier.

Thanks for backing my opinion/argument up

[Clockhouse]

I trust anything made by Bombardier.
Bearing in mind Pendos are Alstom.

[devon_metro]

Comparing this incident to Upton shows the difference in durability between the two trains. That's not saying MkIII stock is unsafe - Upton showed that the stock was up to withstanding high speed crashes without vast loss of life. However, gave us (the public) really the first insight as to how well built these trains actually are. The train sides are strong and well secure, the windows are strengthened - had the sides crumpled then we would have probably seen further fatalities. The driver's life was probably saved by the shear strength of the body of the cab - I read one report commenting on how difficult it is to actually break into the cab or deform it in any way - given that HST cabs are, I heard, made partly of wood.

I trust anything made by Bombardier.

But we can't compare trains with 30 years in safety between them...

[Peter B]

But we can't compare trains with 30 years in safety between them...

But not doubting that Bombardier and Alstom have created some outstanding trains?

[87015]

But we can't compare trains with 30 years in safety between them...

Not my point. Was saying that you can't compare the damage recieved in a derailment to that of a collision.

[voyagerdude220]

Not my point. Was saying that you can't compare the damage recieved in a derailment to that of a collision.

But your opinion 87015, is very likely to be biased, hence your name.

[Tom]

Ufton Nervet was a level-crossing crash, a head on collision.

This one is not a head-on collision judging by the pictures, they are totally different trains, totally different design and therefore totally uncomparable.

[devon_metro]

But your opinion 87015, is very likely to be biased, hence your name.

As is yours, hence you name...

[voyagerdude220]

As is yours, hence you name...

I somehow expected someone to notice that :wink:

[87015]

But your opinion 87015, is very likely to be biased, hence your name.

Where have I said anything anti-Pendo in relation to this event? The pendo has shown its survived the derailment very well, no denying that, and i'm very glad that is the case.

i'm trying to articulate that you can't compare it with Ufton Nervot. Its a different type of crash.

[Sprog]

Well... it does have motors dunnit?

*sigh*

But your opinion 87015, is very likely to be biased, hence your name.

:roll: :roll:

God, abit slow aren't we!?

Ufton Nervet had totally differant circumstances to yesterdays derailment....

..for example, the fact that with a Class 390, you havent got 70+ tonnes of dead weight forcing 30 year old Mk.3s forward into another 70+ tonne lump on the front at 100mph. Think about it.

Stop talking rubbish please, its get very irritating.

Yes, the 390 did a fantastic job of withstanding the impact

Yes, well done to Alstom and the designers for making this possible

Why all the 390 worshipping and associated tosh? Cant you just take a sensible, non childish, non rail-enthusiast view of this accident. Be realistic, it hasnt really 'earnt' anything, just done whats it was designed to do. End of stroy.

As for the condition of 033, well, 'apparently' (quote from Branson in an interview) it is repairable, but how on earth that can be assessed so quickly without any apparent technical inspection and in the current environment the train it is, this is utter rubbish :roll:

The unit may be written off..it may be not. Its highly likey the stresses the vehicles went through during the derailment would have compromised their structural integeraty. Although this will depend on the engineers once it is recovered properly and taken to Crewe (?) for investigation.

Once there, it will be asessed throughly and then the decesion will be made about whether the unit is beyond economical repair.

If they are built anything like Modern cars though, i would say that it may be write off, as they are designed to absorb impact forces and crumple under such forces to prevent more damage. I know for a fact its very easy to write off most modern cars with rather minor crunches, as once the 'crumple zones' are compromised, it becomes beyond economical repair.....but that is partly also the result of todays 'throw away' society.

We shall just have to wait and see.

Anyway, mennt to post this earlier, but never got around to it.

My sympathies and a quick recovery wished to the Driver, Traincrew and Pax involved.

And well done to all the Emergancy services personell aswell for such a swift and professional operation in difficult conditions.

Still only one fatality, which is impressive considering the speed/scale of the derailemnt. RIP though. Lets hope there are no more, though this seems unlikley now.

Was abit concerned last night as my girfreinds Aunty is a Buffet Steward based at Carlisle so a few phone calls where made and as far as i know, she had no involvment luckily.

Media are just talking total rubbish as usual. I was going to make a few phonecalls/emails to BBC/ITV complaining about their shoddy reporting, but so many differnt reporters etc, i lost track.

Didnt see Bob Crows interview though, or that Curley-haird Morons 'expert opinion', but they both sound just as moronic as usual.

Might make a complaint about Wolmar though, consideirng he pulled an identical stunt at Selby and Ufton Nervet aswell. Bellend. :evil: :evil: :evil:

Can further specualtion be avoided though please? In fairness, most of you dont know what your blabbering about and no one knows the full facts.

Lets let the RAIB do their job.

Cheers,

Tom (x)

[Sprog]

Hmn, Really Ufton was a derailment. Cars don't make any difference to trains, other than if parts get underneath the wheels. In this case, the leading wheel set derailed, and complete derailment took place at a set of points. Now there was no embankment much in that case, although heavy power cars were involved, I'd say the HST did much less well, which is understandable given its' age.

At Ufton Nervert, the cars Gearbox (pretty dam hefty bit of metal) got wedged under 43019s #1 Gearbox meaning when it reached the Facing points of Ufton loop, it jumped off the Down line and rapidly de-cellerated as it 'dug in' to the Trackbed, meaning the 70 1/2 tonnes of 43029 trailing the set kept pushing the rest of the Mk.3s casuing them to jack-knife. This resulted in the compression of the coach formation between the two dead-weights and hence the devestation and the 'folding' of the Buffet Car, as they are known from previous incidents at Southall and Ladbroke to be weak in accidents.

A Pendolinos weight is quite evenly spread throughout the train consit because of the Distributed drive and so this aided it in the crash.

Note from the pictures, the 2nd leading coach which has the Panto and associated Transformer gear on board ended up with the Panto end of the coach down he embankment leaving the lighter end of the coach suspended at approx 50 degrees in the air....

[Clockhouse]

I really don't think much of some of the media's reports. For example:

http://www.coxster.co.uk/stuff/Derailment_VT_Grayrigg_ITN_Report.jpg

[Nick W]

Considering the train was not the first to go over since the work on the point, it is very odd that they should simple be missing.

Shame the points in question have not yet been upgraded to a newer type.

[voyagerdude220]

*sigh*



:roll: :roll:

Stop talking rubbish please, its get very irritating.



No like i've said all along, I was simply comparing an accident which has involved an HST, and Friday's accident, and didn't say it's a similar impact etc

When i first heard that it could be points/track to blame for the accident, I was wondering, couldn't the previous trains which ran over this stretch tell a difference in track quality?

[Sprog]

Considering the train was not the first to go over since the work on the point, it is very odd that they should simple be missing.

Shame the points in question have not yet been upgraded to a newer type.

Newer type...............? :?

As far as we all know at the moment, what possible differance would that make?? :lol: :roll:

If this is a maintenance issue then, NICK, consider this:

You can have something brand new and shiney, but if you dont install and maintain it correctly, its just as usless/'unsafe' as the old one. :roll: This is a basic principle of engineering. :mad:

Think before you speak, seriously......!!

No like i've said all along, I was simply comparing an accident which has involved an HST, and Friday's accident, and didn't say it's a similar impact etc

When i first heard that it could be points/track to blame for the accident, I was wondering, couldn't the previous trains which ran over this stretch tell a difference in track quality?

Possibly, possibly not.

We dont even know what the actual defect was the the moment.

As for the track quality question...thats down to the drivers who cover the route every day to judge isnt it. Im sure anything relating to that will be revealed in the near future, when the interview the driver of the preceeding train(s) for example. It might have been a gradual fault, it might not...

Too be hounest, "me-know-no!" , and i bet no one else does either.

But all i can say is, if you beleive that dribble about Sabotage, then you must believe in the Tooth Fairy and flippin Father Christmas too?

[Tom B]

I guess the witness statements of staff and passengers will reveal more information, if there was problems beforehand. When and if did those problems start to be reported, if at all?

Presumably they will ask drivers/passengers on the previous trains if they noticed anything amiss?

[class 313]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/bsp/hi/image_maps/07/1172000000/1172327424/img/cumbria1_crash_all_629.gif

I see the BBC have managed to screw the map up!

I do believe the pantograph coach is the motor coach aswell, although I could be wrong!

[87015]

I do believe the pantograph coach is the motor coach aswell, although I could be wrong!

For what its worth...

DMRFO-MFO(A)-PTFO-MFO(B)-TSO-MSO(A)-PTSRMB-MSO(B)-DMSO

So all technically motor cars apart from the middle car (the added ninth) and the PTFO/PTSRMB - the two pantograph cars.
So, yes the driving cars are also power cars which is what the original point made was.

[Hentis]

Hope the driver is not too serious - we often don't survive these things and in my 19 years I've lost 2 colleauges at Bomo. 1 at Clapham - Johnny Rolls and 1 at Holton Heath - Clive Brooker.

Clive Brooker was my mate ( who I worked with at Autohomes UK brother and Johnny Rolls was my mates dads' mate). It such a loss to loose any one.

Hentis

[thefab442]

*sigh*

Thought they were both DMs? I guess they're DTs then...

[devon_metro]

As if anybody would wear one?

[neonison]

Fisrt post - thanks for letting me on here.

BTP spokesman on BBC News 24 suggested that it would at least next weekend (3/4 March) before this part of the WCML reopened.
Why does it need to take quite so long? and are rail cranes no longer available to perform heavy lifting operations now?

[Tom]

Think it's more to do with the fact that they rolled down an embankment and the rail cranes would need much more stabilising than normal.

[neonison]

Sunday Times published this photograph.

It appears to show a facing crossover but whether we're looking "up" or "down" seems unclear.

Whichever, I don't think this is on the running lines?

[westcoaster]

hi guys, looking at some of the pics in the paper today, and it seems to me by looking at them the train was off before the points( my opinion), but this damage could of been caused by the passing of the train.

[Sprog]

Sunday Times published this photograph.

It appears to show a facing crossover but whether we're looking "up" or "down" seems unclear.

Whichever, I don't think this is on the running lines?

IF its even the set of points in question.....

There is absolutely no way of telling if thats the case from that picture.

It could just be a libary picture some moron reporter has pulled up from somewhere.

[Humberside]

Will the S&C be getting any diversions this week?

[neonison]

IF its even the set of points in question.....

There is absolutely no way of telling if thats the case from that picture.



Agreed, but I'd give the ST a little more integrity to believe it was close, given that it is obviously a grainy and much enlarged shot.

Centre picture we're looking at the crossover between up and down lines. The "check rail" (not clear on that term) looks bent back. That there are bolts missing from the fishplate, but these won't be the same as bolts missing from a stretcher bar.

[First ScotRail]

Will the S&C be getting any diversions this week?


It will indeed, amended timetables for west coast and cross country are on virgins website

[wulfruna]

hi guys, looking at some of the pics in the paper today, and it seems to me by looking at them the train was off before the points( my opinion), but this damage could of been caused by the passing of the train.

Sorry to butt-in the flow of the conversation! Newbie alert! :)

I must say westcoaster I agree with you. I think this derailment is just like the one at Upton, where the train hit an object on the line, derailing the leading axel, only for the train to derail on a set of points further down the line.

Read Richard Branson's comments in the sundaymail. (http://www.sundaymail.co.uk/news/tm_headline=train-driver-is-hero-says-branson%26method=full%26objectid=18672754%26siteid =64736-name_page.html)

"The driver came around the corner, the line was defective and the train went off the line.

"But he carried on sitting in his carriage for half a mile, running the train on the stone.


He says "half a mile". An estimated guess. But I think this makes sense. The last car is no further than 70-90 feet behind the trailing crossover. If the train was derailed on the trailing crossover at 95mph, then the train would be off in a second, and at a stand in less than 4.5 seconds. No time to passengers to react.

The distance from the leading crossover to the site is around 100 yards. If the train were derailed by the leading crossover travelling at line speed, it would cover the distance to crash site in just 3 seconds. Again far too short a time, as passenger accounts do tell of time to make a reaction to the initial “impact” jolt. The BBC executive had time to think about the problem and push her table seat into the up position worried if she would be impaled on it.

So, if the train hit an object, 1/4 mile up the line - say in the cutting after the over bridge at Docker Hall, then the train would take aprox 10 seconds - taking into account the driver's delayed reaction to break hard - until the leading bogie which is off the rails (now travelling at 50-60mph) – strikes the cross over - and thus derails.

Looking at the aerial photos of the scene – the down line between the crossovers does not appear to be damaged. Suggesting that the train came off as a result of striking the trailing crossing. If the leading axle on the leading bogie was off to the left, it could of ridden over the frog on the leading crossing. But when approaching the trailing crossing, the leading bogie would be forced off the rails because the inner wheel is sliding down the turnout’s blade on the trailing crossing forcing the bogie left and off the rails.

Perhaps the leading wheels, being off the rails on hitting the leading crossing, damaged the tie bar forcing the rear bogie up the crossover to the upline where the angle of the coach would force the rear bogie to move forwards rather than sideways – thus ripping it off the rail – bending the check rail as you see it in the Sunday Times photo?? This would make the front car twist to the left snapping the gangway between first and second cars.

Of cause all speculation!!

[westcoaster]

welcome to the forum wulfruna, i looked at the pics and thought no train can stop that quick from the crossover, if it had you would have a horrific site, iirc the btp say there is three points of intrest the crossover, the ???, and the ????.

[ChrisCooper]

Of cource, were the train to have derailed before the points, when it hit them it would have probably have caused them some damage anyway. One of the big jobs of accident investigators is trying to work out which bits were broken by the accident, and which bits were broke causing the accident. Just to add to the idea that the initial derailment was futher down the line, before the crossover, it does fit with the low level of damage and low death toll compared to similar incidents, since it would suggest the train had lost quite a bit of speed by the time it fell of the embankment. One big problem with the likes of Ufton Nervet was that the train hit the points still at considerable speed, and was brought to a stop very quickly, leading to carriages being flung violantly around or compressed together. One big thing that suggest to me that there wasn't a sudden stop is that none of the crumple zones seem to have been particularly damaged, and they are weak points designed to absorb the force of sudden stops, rarther than transmitting it to the passengers. It's important to remember that these modern trains, like modern cars, arn't built like tanks, and able to take big impacts with barely a scratch, they are designed to take damage to protect passengers, whilst still maintaining survival space. Oviously, this is just educated speculation, not facts, but there is so much speculation now that I have the attitude of "if you can't beat them join them" (at least conflicting speculation allows people to see that there are various possibilities, and re-inforces the fact that the truth is far from known, wheras if only one line of speculation is made public, people may see it as more factual than it is).

[voyagerdude220]

It's important to remember that these modern trains, like modern cars, arn't built like tanks, and able to take big impacts with barely a scratch, they are designed to take damage to protect passengers, whilst still maintaining survival space.

Very good post Chris Cooper. Just a shame you've made a crucial error :wink:

I hate it when the media literally makes things up (which Sky news was), when we don't even know the full facts yet.

I must say however that BBC news was sticking to the known facts, and not telling false allegations. (Isn't there some kind of act against this?) I know of the trade description act, but I obviously don't see this being relevant at all.

Also to note, is next weeks emergency timetable which i've just seen.

The only northbound train being diverted via the S&C, has been wrongly timed in the emergency timetable on the nationalrail website.

It shows it as departing Euston at 19:46, and arriving Carlisle at 23:45.

If the diverted service is the 19:46, which VT confirm it is, it must take at least 90 mins more than normal.

e.g London Euston 19:46
Wigan 22:08
Preston 22:20 22:35 (Is that sufficent time for the 57 to attach?) Carlisle 00:55- 01:15, depending how much slower 57+390s are against Voyagers.

I've say that Carlisle to Preston takes exactly 2 hours 20 mins on a Voyager, and 2 hours 21 mins on a Super Voyager :wink:

(The real times for Voyagers are around those stated)

[Peter B]

I do believe the pantograph coach is the motor coach aswell, although I could be wrong!

The diagram is correct.

[leshuttle]

If the diverted service is the 19:46, which VT confirm it is, it must take at least 90 mins more than normal.

As far as I remember it took the best part of 3 hours via the S&C route when I travelled on a diverted Pendolino last May. It’s a pity that this alternative route hasn’t the capacity nor speed, otherwise Virgin could have diverted a great deal more of its trains this way. As it is the bustitution takes about an hour less than staying on the train which is more for the purpose of moving stock around judging by the timetable for tomorrow.

The Cumbrian Coastline & Lancaster-Giggleswick (Settle)/Long Preston for the S&C are some lengthy but doable valid alternatives by Northern Rail if you don't/can't use the bus.

[Kris]

welcome to the forum wulfruna, i looked at the pics and thought no train can stop that quick from the crossover, if it had you would have a horrific site, iirc the btp say there is three points of intrest the crossover, the ???, and the ????.

I looked at that and thought the same thing but then I thought about how I'd been brouoght to a halt from 100mph in a little over 1/4 a mile. I was approaching Wallers Ash on the down with a pig and the signal ahead of me around the bend had gone back to red. Therefore the overspeed on the TPWS kicked in and gave me a full brake application. I was amazed how quickly it stopped (The media still say it takes a mile for a train to stop from 100mph - but these are old figures from the days of brake shoes).

Just wondering if the friction against ballast, jacknifing and demolishing several trees may well have halted it in so short a distance?

P.S. They say Desiros are good for stopping at high speed but they're nothing like a 170. Four and a half bar on the brake in full service and they'll stop on a sixpence (a little under 3p to you).

[wulfruna]

i looked at the pics and thought no train can stop that quick from the crossover, if it had you would have a horrific site

Yes I was thinking on similar lines. I also agree with you ChrisCooper in that the points would have been damaged if the train was already off before hitting them.

If we are allowed to speculate! Going on the theory if the train hit something before reaching the crossing. Ms Thomson, chief operating officer for the BBC, said on their website (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/6391683.stm)

"It did a sort of bump and then one felt it beginning to move slightly and for a minute you thought it would sort of right itself.

"For a minute I thought don't worry this is fine. You knew it was something a bit more serious than normal.

Suggesting there was "sometime" before the train finally came off the rails.

The News and Star ( http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/viewarticle.aspx?id=470428) report Colin Smith, ASLEF rep, saying

“To stay at the controls for a quarter of a mile is very brave.

That would put the point of impact in the cutting after Docker Hall over bridge, before the viaduct.

The News and Star ( http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/viewarticle.aspx?id=470428) go on to quote Branson,

The driver Iain Black came around the corner, the line was defective and the train went off the line.

“But he has carried on sitting in his carriage for half a mile running the train on the stone. He could have tried to get back and protect himself but he didn’t and he has ended up quite badly injured.

I don’t know the line, but from the map it appears that you are rounding a blind bend approaching the skewed bridge carrying the A685 across the line. Did the train strike something after this bridge? This is within the distance from crossings, 29 seconds from crash scene travelling at 95mph. Ms Thomson recalls “a minute” of pondering after experiencing the initial jolt. Perhaps too great a distance – ¾ mile, as Kris says, modern stock breaking distances are much shorter than older “conventional stock”.

The location of the cutting at Docker Hall (before Garth Viaduct) is closer – around 1/4 of a mile and that would fit the reports of the driver “sitting in his cab for half a mile running the train on stone”. The line appears to bend slightly on approach to the cutting and appears to be obscured an over bridge. Did the driver see something in the last minute on the line in his searchlights as he passed through the cutting? Four seconds later he would be on the viaduct. Now breaking hard on wet rails and perhaps with the first axel off the rails, the train reaches the first crossing (12 seconds after impact), which causes the train to derail, but at a much slower speed. 50mph? As Chris suggests, this could be the reason why the coaches don’t appear to be badly crumpled?

If the reports are true in that the driver was battling for ¼ to ½ mile with the “train riding on stone”, then that would suggest Lambrigg Crossing is the final reason to why the train left the tracks, and perhaps not the initial cause.

BUT, if the train did suddenly come off on the leading crossover at 95 mph, the driver would of had no time to apply the breaks as the leading car would of left the rails and be plummeting down the embankment 2-3 seconds later (300 feet later at 90mph). Wouldn’t that imply the driver was a sitting duck? Could he of done anything in that time?

[Tom]

BUT, if the train did suddenly come off on the leading crossover at 95 mph, the driver would of had no time to apply the breaks as the leading car would of left the rails and be plummeting down the embankment 2-3 seconds later (300 feet later at 90mph). Wouldn’t that imply the driver was a sitting duck? Could he of done anything in that time?

Apparently it is incredibly easy for the driver to escape the train within about 5 seconds.

[JJUK]

I would just like to say that one of the staff members was a friend of a friend of mine and i have spoke to her a couple of times as she works for us on a website hobby of ours. but she is recovering very well and is just very badly shaken at the momment but has been said she will be back to normal in a week or two

[wulfruna]

Apparently it is incredibly easy for the driver to escape the train within about 5 seconds.

But can you survive falling from a train at 80 mph? Or do you escape by running down the train? I can understand if you were a driver travelling at low speed or stationary and say, see an on coming train approaching. You have 4-5 seconds to assess the problem then 5-6 seconds to bail from the cab. Thus aprox 10 secs from first assessing the situation.

In this case I don't understand why Mr Smith an ASLEF member (who I assume is a driver with experience) is saying To stay at the controls for a quarter of a mile is very brave. And yet the train left the rails only 100 yards after the leading crossing? But there again Mr Smith is quoted in saying
He [Mr Black] did speak but he wasn’t able to tell us what happened So does Mr Smith know if Mr Black was in the cab "battling for 1/4 mile"? Again, if the train came off the leading crossover at 95mph the cab would of hit the ground and flipped round within 5-6 seconds, which is about as long as it would take someone to realise the situation. Too quick for the driver to take any action. If he was battling for 1/4 of a mile to stop the train, then the train hit something further up the line and then came off the rails at the crossover.

94jw163 - I wish your friend of a friend, and everyone who is injured/affected by the crash, a speedy recovery. When you next see her, give her a big (((hug))) from all of us.

[JJUK]

94jw163 - I wish your friend of a friend, and everyone who is injured/affected by the crash, a speedy recovery. When you next see her, give her a big (((hug))) from all of us.

will do

[Tom]

If it continues for about a quarter of a mile, I could only assume that one of the leading bogies derailed and that the driver took evasive action in order to stop the train, typically throwing the train into full emergency brake, unless the TMS otherwise prevented this... I could only assume that the rheo wouldn't stop the train, and that the air pipe with whatever happened...

This is all speculation though.

[wulfruna]

If it continues for about a quarter of a mile, I could only assume that one of the leading bogies derailed and that the driver took evasive action in order to stop the train, typically throwing the train into full emergency brake, unless the TMS otherwise prevented this... I could only assume that the rheo wouldn't stop the train, and that the air pipe with whatever happened...

This is all speculation though.

Tom, this is what I am thinking too. Yes again - all speculation!

[Tom B]

It would be interesting to compare the cleanup time with other comparable accidents? From what I've read, lines have been reopened by the next day or couple of days - not 2 weeks.

[1D53]

They are certainly checking a large area - I drove on the A684 east of Kendal towards Sedburgh and the road crossing the WCML about a mile or so before the accident. Everything looked fine at this point. Either btp/raib were walking the line and the track itself was littered was stop markers.

[Peter B]

But all i can say is, if you beleive that dribble about Sabotage, then you must believe in the Tooth Fairy and flippin Father Christmas too?

I believe that sabotage could well be a distinct possibility. Also, for the sake of argument, I also believe in the tooth fairy and father christmas.

Also, Sleeper fans will be pleased to note that they will continue to run via York nightly until the line reopens.

[Death]

Hail All! :twisted:
Sorry if this seems a little OT, but for what it's worth I thought that I would post it anyway... :) I see the old seat belt chestnut has been brought up again by people elsewhere:

They have obviously forgotten about this report:

Airline-style seatbelts on trains could cause more injuries to passengers than they prevent, rail experts have said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4542952.stmI noticed this being the standard view on Greyhound buses when I was in the U.S. earlier this year. Anyone who uses National Express will know that most/all of their coaches have seat-belts fitted, which I personally use whenever they are available. When I got to the U.S. and rode on a Greyhound for the first time, I mentioned to the driver before departure my concerns at having no seat-belt available, where he cited the common opinion in America that coach passengers are safer without airline-style belts.

From what I know about physics etc, the seat-belts on aircraft are not so much intended to protect passengers from injury in the event of an emergency landing or head-on collision (With an airport vehicle etc.), but rather designed to keep passengers safely in their seats. Commonly, this is during take-off (In the event of a bumpy runway or irregular ascent), landing (Where up to 2G of forward force may be exerted on passengers), and turbulance (Where passengers may experience up to -1.5G of "airtime", as we call it in the rollercoaster enthusiast community)...Although they do contribute to passenger safety in the event of an emergency landing and thus should be worn whenever possible.

Looking at the differences between "airline" and "car" style seat-belts in a normal 60mph collision (Where a forward force of up to 8G may be exerted on objects inside the vehicle) a "car" style belt holds the passenger in their seat at the lap, but also keeps the torso on the back of the seat with the sash portion across the chest.
Conversely, "airline" style lap belts do keep the passenger in their seat, but as there is no torso support the passengers upper body will be thrown forward, leading to the passengers head making contact with any objects (Dashboard or seat back) that are in front of them. Aside from the obvious head and upper body injuries that this can cause, there is also the scope for injuries at the waist caused by the belt "cutting" into the passenger, and possible spinal damage or seperation at the lower back due to the forward force of the unrestrained torso against the restrained waist area.

If seat-belts were fitted onto trains, I would use them there as well...Although for the reasons and explanation that I've outlined above, I think that a three-point belt would be a much better option than a lap-belt.
However, the obvious impracticality of this is that not only would the train be heavily delayed through staff checking that passengers have their seat-belts on before departure, what would be done about standing passengers on busier services? Anyone who's ever used a Sunday afternoon service from Birmingham NS to Euston will know how crowded the train can get most of the time, which sometimes results in First Class being declassified and standees throughout the length of the train.
Back in the 80's, BR had a "no standing" rule in force on their APT services. That may have worked back then (Wasn't the APT a reservations compulsory service?) but it wouldn't work today due to the increased number of passengers using the network in a "walk up" fashion.
Finally, there would be the additional problem of seat belts wearing out quickly in heavy use by passengers, and the associated extra maintenance costs and vehicle downtime involved in installing/replacing seat-belts. :shock:

To make a quick-ish summary:
I'm personally not too bothered about having no seat-belt when I'm on board a train, although if they were fitted I would use them. I feel that three-point belts are safer than two-point ones.
However, my tip for increased safety (At least against a head on collision) would be to choose a rear-facing seat. Should the train come to a sharp emergency stop, your body weight (Remember that it would be up to eight times higher than normal) would be pushed back into the seat and the weight would be placed upon your back, which is better designed to widthstand such compression forces than the front. :)
Personally I prefer to face forward when I'm travelling, but I usually keep one restraining hand on the table or back of the seat in front so that in the event of a collision I can restrain myself. My arm will only widthstand up to 4G of forward force though.
(As an additional side note, this is why the DSA recommend that drivers hold the wheel in the "ten past two" or "quarter to three" positions - This would allow the driver to brace themselves against the wheel in the event of a collision. An especially important tip for drivers of older cars like my own that do not have air-bags fitted.)

Farewell, and pardon my ramblings! :twisted:
>> Death <<

[Mojo]

Anyone who uses National Express will know that most/all of their coaches have seat-belts fitted

ALL NatEx coaches have seatbelts fitted, it is now the law for a Coach passenger to wear one. I even saw the driver belt up with a proper car-style belt on my journey to London last week!

[Kris]

Apparently it is incredibly easy for the driver to escape the train within about 5 seconds.

All modern(ish) trains (not our slammers on the Lymmy line) have burst through doors. Locked on t