Public Misconceptions!

Ticket Man · 27 Mar 2012

Misconception - the train is more than willing to wait for you whilst you get a coffee

RailUK Forums

cookiescrumble · 27 Mar 2012

Misconception - We will hold the train for you while you pop outside for a fag :roll:

SickyNicky · 27 Mar 2012

BestWestern said:
I have to say that I sympathise with them on this one, and I always think it's a tad crap that the service being run in lieu of the train doesn't allow the carriage of the same items the train itself would usually allow. It would annoy me if I didn't know any different!

It most certainly did annoy me last year when I would have been stranded with my dog had the bus driver not accepted her.

However, a later email to TPE (who were responsible for the bustitution) made it clear that the bus driver had the right to refuse carriage of dogs but if that were to happen TPE would pay for a taxi. I was a tad surprised, but I have the email in black and white.

trc666 · 27 Mar 2012

"I'm a Season Ticket holder - I don't have to take my ticket out of the wallet and put it through the gate because your duty is to open the gate for me."

Usual moan coming from the suits coming through Waterloo in the peaks.

Another one is "The barriers were open at *insert station here* so I don't need to touch in or out, I thought it was free" when people turn up with insufficient funds or a negative balance on their Oyster cards.

dangie · 27 Mar 2012

Not read every reply to this but it seems to me if rail enthusiasts can be a little unsure of regulations/tickets then what chance has Joe Public got! Tickets are still far to complicated.

For another head banging experience try booking a cycle reservation online. I tried it some years ago and if I remember correctly only East Coasts online booking would let me do it. All other companies were at the station only. Don't know if it's any better now.

Skymonster · 27 Mar 2012

QJ said:
Rail Replacement Services convey cycles, pushchairs, prams, dogs (other than working dogs) because the train does.

There will be one hell of a argument on the first occasion I buy a rail ticket, NOT be specifically advised that part of the journey is a rail replacement, and then find a bus driver refusing to carry something the railway would carry.

In fact, I've had an argument about carrying stuff on a rail replacement bus in the past... A while ago I travelled on a replacement bus from Grantham to Nottingham. The bus driver wouldn't put any bags in the underfloor lockers - in fact at first he tried to say that suitcases couldn't be carried on the bus - but in the end a number of passengers ended up taking suitcases and other large bags into the passenger compartment. The bus driver then insisted they be placed in the aisle so that all the seats were available for passengers. I put my suitcase on the seat next to me and refused to move it into the aisle - on the basis that having an aisle full of bags and suitcases constituted a safety hazzard should a need to evacuate the bus quickly arise. The bus driver argued back... right up to the point where I wrote down the bus driver's badge number, took a cellphone picture of several suitcases obstructing the aisle, and told him I would be reporting him for operating unsafely...

Andy

SS4 · 27 Mar 2012

-- genuine query --

Can you choose not to travel if bustitution occurred after ticket purchase and get a full refund? I certainly wouldn't be impressed if I'd bought a ticket to Wolverhampton and was bussed despite having a valid bus ticket [of course in reality one would get the metro and save money]
It doesn't seem unreasonable that if you paid for a train you should be able to get a train or not be punished for choosing not to travel

-- end of genuine query --

Split tickets (not seasons/rovers) are valid even on trains which do not stop at the splitting station
LUL is the only underground railway in the country
Railway food is not very nice

Ivo · 27 Mar 2012

How about this ~~misconception~~ brilliant idea:

The modernisation of the Blackpool and Fleetwood Tramway is the best way forward for Blackpool as a tourist destination

hairyhandedfool · 27 Mar 2012

SS4 said:
-- genuine query --

Can you choose not to travel if bustitution occurred after ticket purchase and get a full refund? I certainly wouldn't be impressed if I'd bought a ticket to Wolverhampton and was bussed despite having a valid bus ticket [of course in reality one would get the metro and save money]
It doesn't seem unreasonable that if you paid for a train you should be able to get a train or not be punished for choosing not to travel

-- end of genuine query --....

-- genuine response --

Depends on the circumstances.

-- end of genuine response --

RJ · 27 Mar 2012

QJ said:
Misconception -

Rail Replacement Services entitle passengers to travel free of charge between stops where the bus/coach calls.

Heard stories of FCC RPIs boarding RR buses at places like Hitchin and PF'ing people for using them without a valid ticket!

Failed Unit · 27 Mar 2012

I haven't read the entire thread so sorry if this is a repeat.

"The majority of passengers have access to advanced purchase tickets on thier choice of journey"

DaveNewcastle · 27 Mar 2012

SS4 said:
-- genuine query --

Can you choose not to travel if bustitution occurred after ticket purchase and get a full refund?
. . . .
It doesn't seem unreasonable that if you paid for a train you should be able to get a train or not be punished for choosing not to travel

-- end of genuine query --

A Rail ticket engages the Railway Companies in a contract to convey the passenger between the stations shown on the ticket. The Companies are not obliged to use a train to fulfill that Contract.

If a passenger "chooses not to travel" then that is their unilateral decision to decline the arrangements made by the Railway Companies. Where the reason for choosing not to travel is the passenger's preference for trains and nothing more, then the only entitlement to any refund will be any entitlement which may be available on that type of ticket (irrespective of the reason for non-travel).
There may be consequential issues (e.g. missed connections or last trains of the day) which are jeapordised by a slower bus service, and if these mean that any of the corresponding provisions for delays or incomplete travel are triggered, then of course they would apply just as if a connecting train was late.

John @ home · 27 Mar 2012

SS4 said:
-- genuine query --

Can you choose not to travel if bustitution occurred after ticket purchase and get a full refund? ...

-- end of genuine query --

The following information may be helpful:

National Rail Conditions of Carriage

E. YOUR REFUND RIGHTS

26. Refunds on tickets that have not been used

If you decide not to use a ticket (other than a Season Ticket - see Condition 36) to make all or part of your intended journey, then:
(a) if the train you intended to use is cancelled, delayed or your reservation will not be honoured, you decide not to travel and at that time you return the unused ticket to any ticket office, the Train Company responsible for that ticket office will, if it is in a position to do so, give you an immediate full refund as shown in Condition 27.
(b) if paragraph (a) does not apply and the ticket has been bought from a Train Companys ticket office (or a self-service machine) and you return your ticket at any Train Companys ticket office no later than 28 days after the expiry of the tickets validity, you will receive a refund (subject to the notes below); or
(c) if paragraph (a) does not apply, the ticket has been bought from a Train Companys telesales office or a Train Companys internet website and you return the ticket to an address notified by that Train Company no later than
28 days after the expiry of the tickets validity, you will receive a refund (subject to the notes below); or
(d) if paragraph (a) does not apply and the ticket has been bought from a travel agent, if you return the ticket to that agent no later than 28 days after the expiry of the tickets validity, you will receive a refund (subject to the notes below).

Notes:
(i) The amount of the refund will normally take into account any use you have made of the ticket and in some circumstances no refund will be paid.
(ii) In the case of a refund made under (b), (c), or (d) above, you may have to pay a reasonable administrative charge (not exceeding £10).
(iii) Your right to receive a refund of all or part of the price paid may be restricted in the case of some types of reduced and discounted fare tickets, for example, those with an advance purchase requirement. These rights are set out in the notices and other publications of the relevant Train Companies.
(iv) In the case of a refund under (b), (c), or (d) above, you will not receive an immediate refund but your refund application will be processed as soon as reasonably practicable.
(v) In the case of an Electronic Ticket, the refund process may require you to allow the person making the refund to delete the stored ticket data or to demonstrate to that person that you have done so in accordance with the conditions of that ticket

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

Advance ticket terms and conditions

If the train you purchased a ticket for is cancelled or delayed by more than 60 minutes, special arrangements will be made to accommodate you on another train (although a seat cannot be guaranteed). If, as a result, you decide not to travel, a refund will be offered on completely unused tickets and you will not be charged an administration fee.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/advance_conditions.html

My view is that, if a train is replaced by a bus after you have booked to travel by that train, then the train has been cancelled.

Skymonster · 27 Mar 2012

DaveNewcastle said:
A Rail ticket engages the Railway Companies in a contract to convey the passenger between the stations shown on the ticket.

Indeed, but...

NRCoC said:
(a) if the train you intended to use is cancelled, delayed or your reservation will not be honoured, you decide not to travel and at that time you return the unused ticket to any ticket office, the Train Company responsible for that ticket office will, if it is in a position to do so, give you an immediate full refund as shown in Condition 27

It doesn't specify any-old means of getting you to your destination is OK, nor does it say that provision of a replacement bus does not constitute a cancellation of a train - it says "if the train you intended to use is cancelled"... So, if you chose not to travel when a booked train doesn't operate and bus is provided instead - a refund is possible.

Don't believe me? I few months ago I had a first advance on EMT from Nottingham to London and a bus was provided from Nottingham to Loughborough without any warning being provided when I bought the ticket - I refused to travel on a bus, asked for a refund to which EMT initially refused, but I argued the case and I got one. So I suggest if anyone says you can't decide not to travel and get a refund if a rail replacement bus is provided - argue your case.

Andy

ainsworth74 · 27 Mar 2012

Skymonster said:
So I suggest if anyone says you can't decide not to travel and get a refund if a rail replacement bus is provided - argue your case.

But probably only if the bus was laid on after you bought the tickets. If you bought the tickets in the knowledge that a replacement bus was in operation I don't think you'd have a leg to stand on.

Greenback · 27 Mar 2012

Skymonster said:
Indeed, but...

It doesn't specify any-old means of getting you to your destination is OK, nor does it say that provision of a replacement bus does not constitute a cancellation of a train - it says "if the train you intended to use is cancelled"... So, if you chose not to travel when a booked train doesn't operate and bus is provided instead - a refund is possible.

Don't believe me? I few months ago I had a first advance on EMT from Nottingham to London and a bus was provided from Nottingham to Loughborough without any warning being provided when I bought the ticket - I refused to travel on a bus, asked for a refund to which EMT initially refused, but I argued the case and I got one. So I suggest if anyone says you can't decide not to travel and get a refund if a rail replacement bus is provided - argue your case.

Andy

You can argue your case, and you can be given a refund as a godowill gesture, but that doesn't mean anyone who asks/argues their case will get the same, nor does it mean anyone is entitled to a refund.

I suspect it very much depends on the circumstances of the journey, as well as whether you cna argue that the information was not provided or available when the ticket was bought.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

ainsworth74 said:
But probably only if the bus was laid on after you bought the tickets. If you bought the tickets in the knowledge that a replacement bus was in operation I don't think you'd have a leg to stand on.

I agree with this interpretation.

Solent&Wessex · 27 Mar 2012

Skymonster said:
There will be one hell of a argument on the first occasion I buy a rail ticket, NOT be specifically advised that part of the journey is a rail replacement, and then find a bus driver refusing to carry something the railway would carry.

In fact, I've had an argument about carrying stuff on a rail replacement bus in the past... A while ago I travelled on a replacement bus from Grantham to Nottingham. The bus driver wouldn't put any bags in the underfloor lockers - in fact at first he tried to say that suitcases couldn't be carried on the bus - but in the end a number of passengers ended up taking suitcases and other large bags into the passenger compartment. The bus driver then insisted they be placed in the aisle so that all the seats were available for passengers. I put my suitcase on the seat next to me and refused to move it into the aisle - on the basis that having an aisle full of bags and suitcases constituted a safety hazzard should a need to evacuate the bus quickly arise. The bus driver argued back... right up to the point where I wrote down the bus driver's badge number, took a cellphone picture of several suitcases obstructing the aisle, and told him I would be reporting him for operating unsafely...

Andy

DaveNewcastle said:
A Rail ticket engages the Railway Companies in a contract to convey the passenger between the stations shown on the ticket. The Companies are not obliged to use a train to fulfill that Contract.

If a passenger "chooses not to travel" then that is their unilateral decision to decline the arrangements made by the Railway Companies. Where the reason for choosing not to travel is the passenger's preference for trains and nothing more, then the only entitlement to any refund will be any entitlement which may be available on that type of ticket (irrespective of the reason for non-travel).
There may be consequential issues (e.g. missed connections or last trains of the day) which are jeapordised by a slower bus service, and if these mean that any of the corresponding provisions for delays or incomplete travel are triggered, then of course they would apply just as if a connecting train was late.

John @ home said:
The following information may be helpful:

My view is that, if a train is replaced by a bus after you have booked to travel by that train, then the train has been cancelled.

Skymonster said:
Indeed, but...

It doesn't specify any-old means of getting you to your destination is OK, nor does it say that provision of a replacement bus does not constitute a cancellation of a train - it says "if the train you intended to use is cancelled"... So, if you chose not to travel when a booked train doesn't operate and bus is provided instead - a refund is possible.

Don't believe me? I few months ago I had a first advance on EMT from Nottingham to London and a bus was provided from Nottingham to Loughborough without any warning being provided when I bought the ticket - I refused to travel on a bus, asked for a refund to which EMT initially refused, but I argued the case and I got one. So I suggest if anyone says you can't decide not to travel and get a refund if a rail replacement bus is provided - argue your case.

Andy

If a train has been replaced by a bus then that train has not been cancelled.

NRCoC says:

60. Carriage by road vehicles
These Conditions apply to passengers travelling and luggage, articles, animals and cycles
conveyed in road vehicles provided by a Train Company or its agents unless notice is given
to show that different conditions apply. The term train in this context includes any road
vehicle owned or operated by a Train Company or on its behalf.
A Train Company may replace a train with a road vehicle at short notice or on a planned
basis and your journey time may be extended. The Train Company may refuse to accept
some types of luggage, articles, animals and cycles in accordance with Condition 49.

So it is clear, a bus is in fact a train!

John @ home · 28 Mar 2012

kwvr45 said:
If a train has been replaced by a bus then that train has not been cancelled.

NRCoC says:

A Train Company may replace a train with a road vehicle

If a train is replaced by a road vehicle, then carriage is by a road vehicle, not by a train. What evidence do you have that the train has not been cancelled?

Jonny · 28 Mar 2012

XC-only tickets being valid on TPE services, as witnessed yesterday (Tues 27/03) on the 17:02 ex Newcastle, as some numpty stood near the guard's door found out to his cost in spite of the announcements!

bnm · 28 Mar 2012

John @ home said:
If a train is replaced by a road vehicle, then carriage is by a road vehicle, not by a train. What evidence do you have that the train has not been cancelled?

I'd say it's a bit of semantics. The service that the TOC has contracted to provide by way of ticket sale has not been cancelled. It has merely been changed from one method of transportation to another.

So, 'substituted' would be a better word to use than 'cancelled'. Or the near anagram, 'bustituted'.

ralphchadkirk · 28 Mar 2012

John @ home said:
If a train is replaced by a road vehicle, then carriage is by a road vehicle, not by a train. What evidence do you have that the train has not been cancelled?

The condition says "replace". A train can be "replaced" by a bus. Therefore if the bus runs, the service has not been cancelled.

This makes it quite clear if you are still unsure:

The term train in this context includes any road
vehicle owned or operated by a Train Company or on its behalf.

Oswyntail · 28 Mar 2012

"Poor drafting and resultant ambiguity works in TOCs favour against passengers". Shock horror, what a surprise.

pemma · 28 Mar 2012

John @ home said:
If a train is replaced by a road vehicle, then carriage is by a road vehicle, not by a train. What evidence do you have that the train has not been cancelled?

If you arrive for a train service at, say 10:40 and an emergency replacement bus timetable has been implemented with the bus leaving at 11:10 and taking 30 minutes longer than the train, I'm sure you should be entitled to compensation under the relevant operator's passenger charter. However, probably not if the change is advertised in advance.

Solent&Wessex · 28 Mar 2012

jcollins said:
If you arrive for a train service at, say 10:40 and an emergency replacement bus timetable has been implemented with the bus leaving at 11:10 and taking 30 minutes longer than the train, I'm sure you should be entitled to compensation under the relevant operator's passenger charter. However, probably not if the change is advertised in advance.

Agreed. In this case of last minute replacement, If you decide not to travel then you would be entitled to a full refund. If it results in a delay to your journey then you should be able to claim for being delayed, either via delay repay or passenger's charter as appropriate. If however the bus has been advertised in advance via the usual channels - ie the timetable is amended and advertised in advance - then I would suggest that no compensation should be provided, assuming they run as per the revised timetable.

SS4 · 28 Mar 2012

It goes without saying (IMO) that if you knew full well it'd be a bus when you book you've not got a leg to stand on. It's where you booked expecting a train but being told later it'd be a bus. For various reasons I don't like taking the bus and would rather reschedule.
You could have an advance booked 10 weeks in advance for example but only found out it'd be a bus 6 weeks in advance

EM2 · 29 Mar 2012

Away from the semantics of bus replacements, some people seem to think that headlights on trains are broken, as can be seen by this exchange on Twitter:

[name removed]: @FirstCC One of the lights on the front of the 08:35 train from new southgate to kings cross is STILL broken. Get it fixed please!!!

@FirstCC: [name removed] Trains have two lights on the front, one is headlight one is a sidelight which is much much dimmer. Its meant to be like that.

[name removed]: @FirstCC Ridiculous! What's the point of that? Wouldn't be great for car driving for example would it? And do I detect a hint of sarcasm?!?!

As yet, FCC have not responded

Scotty · 29 Mar 2012

Does he not realise that cars often have one light brighter than the other?

yorkie · 29 Mar 2012

EM2 said:
[name removed]: @FirstCC Ridiculous! What's the point of that? Wouldn't be great for car driving for example would it? And do I detect a hint of sarcasm?!?!

That person is either incredibly stupid and also liable to get worked up about things that do not concern them.... or, more likely, they're a troll.

ralphchadkirk · 29 Mar 2012

yorkie said:
That person is either incredibly stupid and also liable to get worked up about things that do not concern them.... or, more likely, they're a troll.

I doubt it, they have a vast number of tweets. I think they are actually lacking in the neurone department. One can short of a six pack.

Flamingo · 29 Mar 2012

They will probably want to know why there isn't a steering wheel, as cars have one!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Go on EM2, don;t hide their ID, name and shame! They chose to put their thoughts in a public forum (although when I want everyone to know my thoughts, what's wrong with a megaphone in Oxford Street, I ask myself)

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