Folkestone Harbour Branch, what does the future hold?

SussexSpotter · 11 Jan 2013

Anyone know what the future holds for this branch line, I have read various things about this online and there is mention of it in the Southeastern franchise consultation. Network Rail propose to close it permanently, whilst I have read elsewhere that a long term option maybe to use it as a private preserved railway.

So what does the future really hold for this branch line? Would be nice to see it preserved rather than abandoned completely.

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SussexMan · 12 Jan 2013

More information from these two websites:

The Remembrance Line

Wikipedia

I know I read somewhere that at least one train had to run on the line each year (I think it was each year) otherwise the ownership of the land reverted to a previous owner or something. It might have been in the Railway Magazine.

rf_ioliver · 12 Jan 2013

A bit "pie-in-the-sky" thinking but I always wondered why Folkestone East couldn't be reopened and trains terminating at Dover (via Canterbury East) continue to Folkestone Harbour (via Folkestone East)...but then again I'd reopen harbour station at Dover and terminate everything there.

To be while Folkestone Harbour would be a potentially useful station, the connection to the mainline is in the wrong direction,

t.

Ian

David Goddard · 12 Jan 2013

Harbour station is certainly convenient for the seafront area, but still is about the same distance from the centre of town as Folkestone Central station- for arguments sake I am taking Bouverie place Shopping Centre as a notional "centre".

The condition of the line, and particularly the station, is not at its best, and any attempt to reopen to regular service would certainly need a new station, not necessarily on the existing site.

To be honest although there is a lot of passion from the Remembrance Line group and others I cant see much likelihood of a commercial reopening, and I very much doubt doubt that a tourist operation (something like just a ride from station up to Folkestone Junction and back) would take off either.

Xenophon PCDGS · 12 Jan 2013

rf_ioliver said:
To be, while Folkestone Harbour would be a potentially useful station, the connection to the mainline is in the wrong direction,

Indeed, you have highlighted a most relevant point.

High Dyke · 12 Jan 2013

I was in Folkestone last year and had a walk down to the harbour. The station is pretty run down and would need a lot of effort to return it to use. The track has been partially removed and a sculpture midway along the 6 foot. Either side of the crossing into the harbour complex is fenced off, but you can still access the platform as it is the way onto the harbour wall.

Greenback · 12 Jan 2013

David Goddard said:
To be honest although there is a lot of passion from the Remembrance Line group and others I cant see much likelihood of a commercial reopening, and I very much doubt doubt that a tourist operation (something like just a ride from station up to Folkestone Junction and back) would take off either.

I couldn't agree more. The only reason the line existed was to provide a direct conenction to the ships - there is simply no need for it now.

The run is too short to appeal as a tourist venture, it doesn't fall into the category of a scenic line, or a country branch line, so it is hard to see how it would have much appeal to the general public (this was partly the reason for the failure of the Swansea Vale Railway near me).

We cannot save every line that no longer has a reason to be used. Bette rto concentrate efforts elsewhere.

Paul Sidorczuk said:
Indeed, you have highlighted a most relevant point.

The layout of the junction has been a problem for the operation of the branch, at least in modern times, but the real reason for the closure of the branch is the decline of the ferries.

jopsuk · 12 Jan 2013

of course, one of the factors (as well as cheap air travel) that has led to the decline of ferry services in the Dover straits, and certainly helped kill off Folkestone as a port (and thus killed the harbour branch), is, somewhat ironically, the Channel Tunnel.

DarloRich · 12 Jan 2013

SussexSpotter said:
Anyone know what the future holds for this branch line, I have read various things about this online and there is mention of it in the Southeastern franchise consultation. Network Rail propose to close it permanently, whilst I have read elsewhere that a long term option maybe to use it as a private preserved railway.

So what does the future really hold for this branch line? Would be nice to see it preserved rather than abandoned completely.

Never, ever, going to happen. The whole line would need rebuilding as would the station. What purpose could this line serve?

SussexSpotter · 12 Jan 2013

DarloRich said:
Never, ever, going to happen. The whole line would need rebuilding as would the station. What purpose could this line serve?

Your probably right, and the costs would be high as well, but it does seem a shame to see a line like this fall into disrepair. I suppose its purpose would be from a historical point of view, running short shuttle services for enthusiasts up and down the branch between Folkestone sidings and Folkestone Harbour, and perhaps bring an economic boost to the area of Folkestone Harbour which has indeed declined in recent years.

MidnightFlyer · 12 Jan 2013

I was fortunate enough to do this line on a railtour a few years ago (cannot remember name or date, sorry), but it had very little by way of redeeming features - IIRC it just goes past people's back gardens between the station and NR connection, and Harbour station looked in a very poor, neglected state. Does anyone have any pics of the station, both now and in the past? It's quite hard to obtain any decent, station-focussed ones. I can't see how it would survive as heritage / preservation, unless you turned the station into a museum or something but let the rest of the line go.

Greenback said:
(this was partly the reason for the failure of the Swansea Vale Railway near me).

Wasn't that closed due to vandalism around 2007-2009?

SussexSpotter · 12 Jan 2013

MattE2010 said:
I can't see how it would survive as heritage / preservation, unless you turned the station into a museum or something but let the rest of the line go.

That's actually a pretty good idea, the museum could then tell the story of the Folkestone Harbour branch, and the history. There could be a small admission fee to pay for running costs.

MidnightFlyer · 12 Jan 2013

SussexSpotter said:
Your probably right, and the costs would be high as well, but it does seem a shame to see a line like this fall into disrepair. I suppose its purpose would be from a historical point of view, running short shuttle services for enthusiasts up and down the branch between Folkestone sidings and Folkestone Harbour, and perhaps bring an economic boost to the area of Folkestone Harbour which has indeed declined in recent years.

That's a very, very small market though. The line's been done a good few times on railtours so a lot of enthusiasts would probably count it as done, unless you got some sort of rare heritage DMU to entice that branch of interest, but unfortunately a lot either belong to other preserved railways or are in a state of severe disrepair. Then there's also the maintenance of units and track, and permission to access the NR sidings next to Folkestone East staff halt however many times you want to. I don't think it could survive very long I'm afraid.

Mutant Lemming · 12 Jan 2013

It could become a national preservation centre for third rail operated trains. It is as likely to happen as the line being re-opened commercially though.

Cletus · 12 Jan 2013

See this site for plans for the whole area.

http://www.folkestoneseafront.com/

Click 'The Masterplan' to see that a railway line or station is not included. Includes "Harbour Station Street - historic station geometry retained and activated with new uses"

Greenback · 12 Jan 2013

SussexSpotter said:
Your probably right, and the costs would be high as well, but it does seem a shame to see a line like this fall into disrepair.

I'm not sure that this would be any more of a loss than any other short branch into a harbour or dockside area. Unless of course, it has some sort of huge signifcance that I'm unaware.

SussexSpotter said:
I suppose its purpose would be from a historical point of view, running short shuttle services for enthusiasts up and down the branch between Folkestone sidings and Folkestone Harbour, and perhaps bring an economic boost to the area of Folkestone Harbour which has indeed declined in recent years.

Again, how many enthusisats would this appeal to? It is a short run, which, as far as I am aware, doesn't have a great deal of popular appeal outside of a relatively small circle of enthusiasts.

MattE2010 said:
Wasn't that closed due to vandalism around 2007-2009?

Yes, that is the official reason that was quoted at the time, and vandalism was certainly a problem. However, it was recognised amongst members that the project was never going to be anything more than a short section of track in an urban setting, which would never amount to anything more than a living museum at most.

It was a better idea to run the stock they had acquired on the Gwili, which is a longer and more scenic line in a more tourist centred area.

SussexSpotter · 12 Jan 2013

Greenback said:
I'm not sure that this would be any more of a loss than any other short branch into a harbour or dockside area. Unless of course, it has some sort of huge signifcance that I'm unaware.

It's the history of the line more than anything really, and the fact it was once popular with railtours and indeed the Orient Express before their operations were moved to Folkestone West.

Greenback said:
Again, how many enthusisats would this appeal to? It is a short run, which, as far as I am aware, doesn't have a great deal of popular appeal outside of a relatively small circle of enthusiasts.

I was thinking of a preserved electric railway, with heritage electric units. Also as MattE2010 suggested the possibility of a museum at Folkestone Harbour station. Wern't 'Southern Electric Group' looking to set up a museum at one time?

I think in order for such an idea that the branch becoming a preserved railway works and is viable there would have to be something provided that was unique and I think that using heritage electric units would be quite attractive to both enthusiasts and tourists.

Cliveblackpool · 12 Jan 2013

Imo Folkestone should not be too hasty in writing off their port.
Dover has the edge being the shortest run across the Channel.
With increasing traffic, (especially after the recession!) Folkstone could still have a future. Maybe 5 - 10 years away, and initially specializing in freight. Take some of the lorries out of Dover! Make a lot more money and employment than 750 houses!

Greenback · 12 Jan 2013

SussexSpotter said:
It's the history of the line more than anything really, and the fact it was once popular with railtours and indeed the Orient Express before their operations were moved to Folkestone West.

I don't think that would be sufficient enough appeal, to be honest.

SussexSpotter said:
I was thinking of a preserved electric railway, with heritage electric units. Also as MattE2010 suggested the possibility of a museum at Folkestone Harbour station. Wern't 'Southern Electric Group' looking to set up a museum at one time?

I think in order for such an idea that branch becoming a preserved railway works and is viable there would have to be something provided that was unique and I think that using heritage electric units would be quite attractive to both enthusiasts and tourists.

While I agree that an electric heritage line would be very popular with enthusaists, I don't think that it would have the same appeal that steam trains seem to have, at least in so far as attracting families, children and the general public.

Also, operating an electric railway will undoubtedly bring other problems and costs which could contribute to making the scheme a non starter. I am noe xpert in the H&S or legal requirements, so I will be happy to be corrected if I am wrong!

SussexSpotter · 12 Jan 2013

Greenback said:
While I agree that an electric heritage line would be very popular with enthusaists, I don't think that it would have the same appeal that steam trains seem to have, at least in so far as attracting families, children and the general public.

Also, operating an electric railway will undoubtedly bring other problems and costs which could contribute to making the scheme a non starter. I am noe xpert in the H&S or legal requirements, so I will be happy to be corrected if I am wrong!

I think it all depends on how the scheme went about really, and whilst I won't disagree that steam is indeed far more popular as can be seen at places such as the Bluebell Railway, I believe there is still a market out there for heritage electric railways in the south. There is certainly the possibility of running railtours to and from Folkestone Harbour a few weekends each year, similar to what Hastings diesels limited do. I don't really see how an electric railway would encounter anymore problems than any other preserved railway. Whilst the initial costs maybe high in the short term to electrify the small section of line, it would probably work out quite low in the long term and the railway could have potential of doing quite well if it was done the right way. I think with the regeneration of Folkestone Harbour in the masterplan as someone posted, the scheme does have some potential.

Greenback · 12 Jan 2013

SussexSpotter said:
I think it all depends on how the scheme went about really, and whilst I won't disagree that steam is indeed far more popular as can be seen at places such as the Bluebell Railway, I believe there is still a market out there for heritage electric railways in the south. There is certainly the possibility of running railtours to and from Folkestone Harbour a few weekends each year, similar to what Hastings diesels limited do. I don't really see how an electric railway would encounter anymore problems than any other preserved railway. Whilst the initial costs maybe high in the short term to electrify the small section of line, it would probably work out quite low in the long term and the railway could have potential of doing quite well if it was done the right way. I think with the regeneration of Folkestone Harbour in the masterplan as someone posted, the scheme does have some potential.

I won't disagree that railtours would find the Harbour an intriguing destination.

I am guessing that third rail electrification on a heritage line might need more bureaucracy and expense than a trditional heritage line at start up, and this may be suffiicent to deter would be operators. But I am not at all certain about this, as I am nowhere near knowledgeable enough about such matters to be sure about it.

I won't comment on the regeneration of the Harbour, as I have never been there and don't know anything about the plans!

jopsuk · 12 Jan 2013

Cliveblackpool said:
Imo Folkestone should not be too hasty in writing off their port.
Dover has the edge being the shortest run across the Channel.
With increasing traffic, (especially after the recession!) Folkstone could still have a future. Maybe 5 - 10 years away, and initially specializing in freight. Take some of the lorries out of Dover! Make a lot more money and employment than 750 houses!

the Ferry terminal is effectively gone. Google Maps shows it as having no linkspan.

The location would be terrible for a freight specialist ferry terminal- all those lorries pounding the streets.

As far as I know, neither Dover Eastern Docks nor the tunnel are anywhere near capacity. If Dover did start to get overcrowded, a redevelopment of the Western docks would probably be more cost effective.

Boulogne spent rather a lot of money on their port facilities. They haven't had any ferry services since 2010. Really better not to throw money away like that

CarltonA · 12 Jan 2013

I was on a Herts Railtours trip to Folkestone Harbour a few years back. One side had the rails removed except the juice rail and it was jokingly referred to as 1st rail. There was no traction current by that stage anyway. After that we had a run to Newhaven Harbour via Wandsworth for a crew change. More chance of Dover Marine making a comeback I reckon.

SussexSpotter · 12 Jan 2013

CarltonA said:
More chance of Dover Marine making a comeback I reckon.

Come to mention it what were the 'real' reasons behind the closure of Dover Marine?

Clip · 12 Jan 2013

Was it not just because of the tunnel and thus expansion of the ferry terminal on rt h we station?

SussexSpotter · 12 Jan 2013

Clip said:
Was it not just because of the tunnel and thus expansion of the ferry terminal on rt h we station?

I've heard various different things about why Dover Marine closed, I always thought it was something to do with the Channel Tunnel.

There's a video here showing what it was like back in the early 90's before it closed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=814WULoStV0

Clip · 13 Jan 2013

I'll check that vid later. Interesting how some say its approached from the vwrong direction as surely its the same time via Canterbury east as it is via Ashford?

yorksrob · 13 Jan 2013

Clip said:
I'll check that vid later. Interesting how some say its approached from the vwrong direction as surely its the same time via Canterbury east as it is via Ashford?

I did the branch on a railtour which approached from the Dover direction once. If I remember correctly the train had to do a double reverse at Folkestone East as there is no direct link from the branch towards Dover.

Greenback · 13 Jan 2013

yorksrob said:
I did the branch on a railtour which approached from the Dover direction once. If I remember correctly the train had to do a double reverse at Folkestone East as there is no direct link from the branch towards Dover.

I recall that to be correct from my visits in the 1990's.

jopsuk · 13 Jan 2013

SussexSpotter said:
Come to mention it what were the 'real' reasons behind the closure of Dover Marine?

Because it became convenient for almost nothing? Foot passenger only ferries had stopped, all the car ferries were using the eastern docks and even the western docks car ferry terminal/old hoverport is quite a long walk from Marine- though even this is irrelevant as that facility has since become disused entirely.

The liner terminal meanwhile has a single ship every couple of days. That's certainly not enough to sustain a railway station.

As for the western docks, they're a shorter walk from Priory than Marine.

There is simply no good reason to have a railway station at Marine, and there wasn't really a good reason any more when it closed. Note that it closed a few months before Eurostar started operating; blaming Eurostar for its demise is too simplistic as the passenger ferries had already died.

Folkestone Harbour Branch, what does the future hold?

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