There are also people who possess an Oyster card but don't have it with them. I paid a cash bus fare a few weeks ago while visiting my parents over Christmas -- I have an Oyster card for occasional use, but usually when I'm in London I have either a through ticket to somewhere the other side of it, or a paper travelcard from my local station, so I use it very rarely and entirely forgot to take it with me on the offchance that I might want to use it sometime several days ahead. I guess being stranded would be an incentive to remember it another time!
I'm not aware of having a contactless card, and my current debit card isn't due to expire for nearly 18 months. (I'm not sure if I trust the idea of a contactless card anyway, but perhaps that's just unfamiliarity).
As for foreign cities, I've paid cash bus fares in two of them within the past 12 months, and in an unfamiliar city where you don't speak much of the language, not being able to figure out the fares system is a significant incentive to walk if it's a realistic option.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
As I understand it, one of the things you miss out on is the ability to find out how much money is on your card (other than taking careful note of what flashes up when you touch it on a reader), and therefore to know whether you've been charged correctly (maybe not an issue on a simple bus journey, but I've seen plenty of threads about problems with more complicated journeys).
-
Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
London buses have become cashless
- Thread starter GodAtum
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
martinsh
Established Member
Not in the countries I go to it isn't !
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Can I ask, what seems a simple question to me. Are people who wish to make a short trip to any British tourist destination now expected to make prior enquiries as to the possibility of a non-cash bus transport in the destination that they wish to visit ?
How many other large European cities operate non-cash schemes on their local transport systems ?
How many other large European cities operate non-cash schemes on their local transport systems ?
I'd agree with that. In fact my mates dad is a bus driver in the suburbs of Melbourne and he said that they have to let people on even if they don't have the fare. I know that that isn't universal throughout Melbourne and we always paid when there.
The time I went into negative when I had a 7 day travelcard because I used it outside the zones, it worked fine on buses but didn't work at stations without topping up. This is with a 18+ Student Oyster though. When I had a 11-15 or 16+ one going into negative would stop it working on buses even though they were free.
bb21
Emeritus Moderator
- Joined
- 4 Feb 2010
- Messages
- 24,151
That is actually a rather large number in absolute terms.
Anyway you are missing the point of having cash payment facilities onboard. It is not meant as a first-choice payment option. While it is good that they are allowing people one more ride when their credit runs low, and reviewing coverage of top-up facilities, there will always be situations which they cannot cater for. What if you are stuck with no credit on your card and needing to take two buses home at 2am in the morning? This is not exactly an unusual occurrence on a Friday or Saturday night, especially on the outer reaches of London.
That doesn't mean other people do not need to refund their cards. What about overseas visitors? What about people who have to purchase additional cards because they have unfortunately left theirs at home? I know that I certainly have no need for five different Oyster cards lying around.
Will all overseas visitors, who make up a significant proportion of passengers on the transport network in London, have contactless cards? What happens when card payment fails?
Re-read the bit I quoted
Oops.
transmanche
Established Member
- Joined
- 27 Feb 2011
- Messages
- 6,018
Well take the classic tourist. They will (like I guess most of us do when visiting a foreign city as a tourist) have looked up in advance to see how to get around London. They may have purchased a Visitor Oyster card, or paper Travelcards in advance - or buy paper Travelcards from the tube station. (The TfL Visitor Ticket Help Centre doesn't even mention cash fares.) By definition, such overseas visitors less likely to want to deal with coins (and on arrival, even to have coins) than locals.
Then there will come the time when such people will have to bite the bullet and get those cards refunded. If it's a bit of a faff, then tough... that's life!
I couldn't tell you. But I'll wager that overseas visitors make up a tiny proportion of the 1% who pay cash on board buses.
Visit London highlights the benefits of Oyster (and had links for overseas visitors to purchase a Visitor Oyster card). And Tfl has said they will work with Visit London to "raise awareness of the payment options for visitors and tourists from the UK and beyond before they arrive in London".
I think that's pretty much covered everything!
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
It's not that much of a faff. I had one refunded just before Christmas at Euston Square, it took them all of two minutes. The only faffy bit is the ID requirement, but most tourists would have some form of ID on them anyway. Not that you can get refunds of the deposit on Visitor Oyster cards.
A discussion about the same subject was had recently in another thread it seems that you're simply told to go away.
So really, when breaking things down, the only ticket method left which ensures entry to a bus is an Oyster card with auto top-up enabled. The irony being that auto top-up is impossible to set up on buses alone the only fully customer friendly option being to order a brand new Oyster with auto top-up enabled, and I wonder how many people realise that's possible to do?
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
If "cash" is said to be legal tender, what is the legal position on the offering of cash in situations where an arbitrary decision has been made not to accept cash as a method of payment ?
transmanche
Established Member
- Joined
- 27 Feb 2011
- Messages
- 6,018
That's nothing to do with what is or is not legal tender. You can't use £20 or £50 notes on most buses already.
Legal tender has a very narrow definition, which isn't what most people think it it. Legal tender is about the settlement of a (pre-existing) debt.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Perhaps my view of "cash" differs somewhat from yours, as £20 notes and £50 notes are not the higher currency values that I had in mind. I view currency from a 1p coin upwards as the type of "cash" that I had in mind. Perhaps your wallet sees different currency notes than mine as normally used currency notes. I have never had a £50 note in my possession in the 68 years that I have been alive.
I had assumed that legal tender was used as a financial obligation of payment (bus and train fares just as one small part of this) and I was under the impression the a surfeit of coinage of a certain denomination tendered would preclude this from being used as legal tender.
Can I therefore have a legal clarification upon my contention that legal tender can be proffered as the payment towards anything and not just for a "pre-existing" debt, as stated in the quote above.
Someone offering to sell something can choose to accept whatever they want - they could say the price is two pigs if they want.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_tender#United_Kingdom suggests that in the United Kingdom legal tender only refers to settling a pre-existing debt. This differs between countries.
I suspect many online shops will not take cash.
Many staff and academic canteens do not take cash but only an electronic card. Whilst it is usually possible to top these up at the same places they'll often only take a limited range of denominations or sometimes only card payments.
Last edited:
transmanche
Established Member
- Joined
- 27 Feb 2011
- Messages
- 6,018
You assumed incorrectly.
Well, seeing as you won't take my word for it, perhaps the word of the Bank of England will suffice.
Bank of England said:
Which I think you'll agree, is pretty much what I said earlier.
Many visitors to London, at least those visiting for leisure purposes, deliberately choose National Rail issued Travelcards so that they can take advantage of the various 2 for 1 offers at many of the attractions.
I would think that the number of tourists actually paying with cash on the buses is relatively low.
I wonder how many business travellers would use a bus compared to a taxi or the tube?
I would think that the number of tourists actually paying with cash on the buses is relatively low.
I wonder how many business travellers would use a bus compared to a taxi or the tube?
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
How wonderful it must be to be the fount of all knowledge. Perhaps you have now confirmed what my consultant said about the stroke that afflicted me in 2012 having the ability to affect my cognitive thinking ability and that certain parts of memory recall may not be those that I had originally committed to memory.
My wife used to be a Civil Servant.
When claiming expenses for travel she queried which category bus tickets should be put in and was told to put them in with train tickets but also that no-one in her department had ever claimed for bus tickets before (taxis being more usual).
She wouldn't catch the bus regardless but if there was one from the station to where she was going with a reasonable frequency or a short wait time she would.
transmanche
Established Member
- Joined
- 27 Feb 2011
- Messages
- 6,018
You asked a question and I answered it. You didn't like my answer and rather pompously dismissed it. And now you're using sarcasm to denigrate me for knowing the answer? Most people would just have said 'thank you'.
Last edited:
bb21
Emeritus Moderator
- Joined
- 4 Feb 2010
- Messages
- 24,151
I think you will be surprised. On no less than three separate occasions in the last month (and I have only been in London twice during that period) did I observe tourists refuse the recommendation of an Oyster card because of the hassle involved in the refund process. Yes, they bought Travelcards for some of the days they were in London, but two of those groups also decided that they would pay cash on the bus for the final day after being informed that they could get to the airport with one bus without changing. Visitors will have coins whether they like it or not, through other transactions, so paying cash fare on a bus ride is hardly going to make much of a difference.
Anyway this is sidetracking the original point I made that you were responding to. Overseas tourists will still need to refund the credits in their Oyster card, whichever version it is, and it is very much a faff trying to refund one if you don't have the right documentation. Twice in the last month I have witnessed people being turned away due to incorrect documentation, one of whom was going back to the US and god knows when she would be returning, so I guess TfL gets to keep the remaining £10 or so still left on her card.
So you are basically saying that TfL should be allowed to deliberately make life more difficult for people, for the sake of one bus journey. I don't agree with this attitude.
They don't need to make up a significant proportion (but I seriously doubt that they make up only 1% of the cash fare received if my experiences are anything to go by / YMMV). As I have already noted, there is a need at times, and cash payment can be a vital last resort payment option in certain situations as I have explained in previous posts, so should not be removed as a payment option onboard. There are various ways to make the system more efficient, such as not giving change, and the associated costs are likely to be low with the small number of anticipated transactions. By all means put the prices up if there is a significant shortfall in terms of fares collected vs costs but why ignore the benefits a cash fare facility brings?
transmanche
Established Member
- Joined
- 27 Feb 2011
- Messages
- 6,018
I think you're being a bit overdramatic here.
And if queueing up for a few minutes at a tube station is really too much of a faff, people can post their Oyster card back to TfL - who can even pop the money directly into their bank account.
bb21
Emeritus Moderator
- Joined
- 4 Feb 2010
- Messages
- 24,151
It is not just the process of refunding the card though, is it? There is the hassle of finding an Oyster ticket shop or station in the first place too. Why should it be such a faff just to make a bus journey?
What if there is nothing open nearby at the time you want to travel?
Now if there is an Oyster vending machine at every bus stop capable of selling and refunding, then I have no objection removing cash fare facilities onboard. (No, I am not advocating precisely this because I am not mad, but you get my point.)
ModernRailways
Established Member
- Joined
- 21 Apr 2011
- Messages
- 2,050
I personally have never seen tourists using coins. It tends to be Londoners who use coins to use the bus as tourists already tend to have a ticket/Oyster.
I think one possible solution would be to issue Oyster Cards for free to residents who can show they live in the London area. As I say most travelling to London already buy their tickets in advance, buy them from the tube ticket machines, or buy them on the train/in the Airport etc.
The problem only really arises at night and in the early hours of the morning. Obviously drivers will use discretion but what if they just don't believe the person's reason or are in a stroppy mood? Will the person be left on the street to try the next bus? Or will drivers issue a fare that must be paid at a later date - similar to a penalty fare but the price would be normal bus price - this could however take a while causing a good 5 minute delay to the service.
Does anyone know if the readers support NFC so that people can use their phones to pay?
I think one possible solution would be to issue Oyster Cards for free to residents who can show they live in the London area. As I say most travelling to London already buy their tickets in advance, buy them from the tube ticket machines, or buy them on the train/in the Airport etc.
The problem only really arises at night and in the early hours of the morning. Obviously drivers will use discretion but what if they just don't believe the person's reason or are in a stroppy mood? Will the person be left on the street to try the next bus? Or will drivers issue a fare that must be paid at a later date - similar to a penalty fare but the price would be normal bus price - this could however take a while causing a good 5 minute delay to the service.
Does anyone know if the readers support NFC so that people can use their phones to pay?
Last edited:
transmanche
Established Member
- Joined
- 27 Feb 2011
- Messages
- 6,018
I think those issues have already been well covered in this thread already.
Fact is, it's going to happen and the world isn't going to end.
bb21
Emeritus Moderator
- Joined
- 4 Feb 2010
- Messages
- 24,151
Yes, we have, and no, we did not reach any satisfactory conclusion.
I do not dispute this. TfL will do whatever it wants to, and there is nothing anyone can do. I am not happy about it, but whatever I say is hardly going to change the minds of those who made that decision.
All the talk about tourists came about mainly regarding issues of refunds and contactless cards and probably sidetracked the discussion of the core issue, which mostly centres around this.
Now excuse me for being cynical and not very reassured about the proposal as I have been in the exact situation before, twice. Once at around 3am needing to go from the South Kensington area to Earlesfield, and the other at 2am from Hounslow to Earlesfield. On both occasions I had negative balances after the deduction of two maximum fares due to unexpected OSIs (the second one an unexpected temporary OSI). Had there been no facility to pay cash fare onboard, I would have probably been stranded, or required to fork out for a taxi.
Well a couple I know recently flew in from Australia and just wanted to be able to pay what they needed after a 24 hour odd flight without having to worry about sorting out travel cards, oyster cards etc. Once they got in to central London they were transferring on to a guided European tour. Not my preferred method of travel but there is obviously a market for it. If they couldn't easily get on a train or bus they would have just got a taxi and forked out the cash.I can see the arguments both ways and I think the Oyster is brilliant and also the Octopus in Hong Kong. I am not sure removing the chance to pay by cash is a great idea though.
transmanche
Established Member
- Joined
- 27 Feb 2011
- Messages
- 6,018
So, making the same point over and over is not going to move the discussion forward...
So now is the time to plan ahead and set up an auto top-up for your Oyster, thus ensuring you won't get caught out in future.
I was a civil servant for a while, and on one occasion when I had to attend a meeting in London, there was a tube strike. I happily got the bus from Paddington, and walked a short way to get to the venue, which wasn't directly on any bus route. I arrived at the meeting five minutes or so later than I should have.
Over half of my colleagues were much later than me having queued for taxi's. Those that arrived on time had left home earlier than normal and either walked to the offices or spent time waiting for a taxi.
No one had opted for a bus, and when I explained how I had got there, the reaction was incredulity! Though I'm not sure how much of that was for me walking a few hundred metres or for using a bus = probably a bit of both!
Personally, I don't mind that cash fares are being withdrawn. i haen't paid cash for a bus journey for years, probably since the metting incident!
I understand the concerns about particular groups being inconvenienced, but as we move inexorably towards a society that is less reliant on cash, I can only see this sort of thing becoming more common.
ModernRailways
Established Member
- Joined
- 21 Apr 2011
- Messages
- 2,050
Maybe a feature needs to be implemented with a 'Get you home' kind thing. Whereby when you go into negative balance, you get 2 hours to complete your journey from that point. You have to activate it by telling the driver of the bus you're eventual destination and they will then use their machines to allow the fare to be deducted and a notice on the Oyster to allow the person to travel from that moment. The only real problem that would arise there is if someone used it during the day to get somewhere else, but then it could be argued that it's their own fault.
Maybe there needs to be something whereby you can top up your Oyster at home/on the go without having to touch in at a tube/rail station to activate it. The money goes straight onto your card. Some sort of card reader or something like that? Could an iPhone/Android app be capable of reading an Oyster card?
Two points from me please:
-i forgot my oyster once and paid cash on a bus in south London.
-can I invite every forum member to do as I have done, and call their bank to ask for a contactless card. The answer will either be:
-yes
-no, too young
-no, we don't offer them yet
-no, credit record not good enough
-no, customer not fulfilling criteria
I was rejected for the last thing, despite my affairs being fine.
Please can we all request one to see what happens?
-i forgot my oyster once and paid cash on a bus in south London.
-can I invite every forum member to do as I have done, and call their bank to ask for a contactless card. The answer will either be:
-yes
-no, too young
-no, we don't offer them yet
-no, credit record not good enough
-no, customer not fulfilling criteria
I was rejected for the last thing, despite my affairs being fine.
Please can we all request one to see what happens?
- Status