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failed 92 on 1S25! (14/04/15)

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sprinterguy

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Well maybe use a Locomotive supplier that has locomotives that are reliable enough and have enough of them not have to resort to some ancient Semi Preserved Loco's
Entirely agree. Even though one of the train faults was with the coaching stock train supply, was it not previously foreseen that this could cause problems with the chosen type of locomotive that is now being sourced?
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Sorry, but Serco shouldnt have been allowed to touch this, or the Northlink Ferrys opperation and I hear there now 1 of 2 bidders for the Western Isles ferrys.
Going off topic, but based on their track record with the Northlink Ferries, compared with the sterling service that CalMac have given on the Western Isles ferry routes, I would be utterly dismayed if this comes to pass. :(

"The Earth belongs unto the Lord
And all that it contains
Except the Kyles and the Western Isles
And they are all MacBrayne's" :p
 
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hibtastic

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From what I have read on this thread, the coaching stock tripped a circuit breaker on the 92. For the life of me, I cant work out why that would be Serco's fault.

Serco have some fantastic plans for the sleeper service which I am looking forward to trying out in the future so you wont catch me moaning and whinging about their appointment being a mistake.

Trains fail, every single day in fact. Shame for those onboard but I am sure they will get over it.
 

sprinterguy

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From what I have read on this thread, the coaching stock tripped a circuit breaker on the 92. For the life of me, I cant work out why that would be Serco's fault.
It was Serco's decision to source class 92s from GBRf over the previous arrangement of class 90s from DB Schenker. No idea if sticking with class 90s would have made any difference in this scenario, but as they do have a design lineage that goes back to the class 87s (updated with thyristor control and more advanced electronics, etc) I do wonder, if only idly.
 
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hibtastic

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It was Serco's decision to source class 92s from GBRf over the previous arrangement of class 90s from DB Schenker. No idea if sticking with class 90s would have made any difference in this scenario, but as they do have a design lineage that goes back to the class 87s (updated with thyristor control and more advanced electronics, etc) I do wonder, if only idly.

Did the 90s not fail?
 

sprinterguy

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Trains fail, every single day in fact. Shame for those onboard but I am sure they will get over it.
I feel that it is a little different for a dedicated sleeper service that runs only one train each day to/from each Scottish location, compared to the failure of a commuter or regional service where the next one is probably no more than half an hour away. If I had been on-board last night, the late arrival of the Fort William portion would have caused me to miss my typical Scottish Citylink reservation, despite the ample amount of time that I give in case of delays, and at a different time of year would also result in passengers potentially missing out on a pre-booked Jacobite trip. In the former case there are alternatives and in both instances passengers would be reimbursed the full price of their Sleeper ticket, but such a level of disappointment would give me cause for misgivings towards using the service in the future.

And what of those passengers who would have expected to arrive in London at 7am this morning, but instead probably didn't make it to Euston until 9:30am or perhaps later? That's not an inconsequential delay to whatever plans they might have had, even where they can be rearranged.

Hopefully, we are only witnessing teething troubles related to the introduction of the new loco type. With a dedicated franchise, I certainly hope that we will see a great deal of effort put into minimising the potential for delays and cancellations, as with only four trains (split into ten portions) in each twenty four hour period, any disruption will cause a dramatic reduction in PPM figures: Last night/this morning, 50% of the sleeper service either arrived at its' destination over an hour late, or failed to arrive at all!
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Did the 90s not fail?
Yes they did, but I am curious as to whether a loco change would have been required in this particular instance. Faults occur, but are Serco introducing additional complexity into the operation by sourcing locomotives that have been recently refurbished (are any of the Caledonian Sleeper locos examples that spent extended periods of time in store? They may not be, but I'm not sure), are more electronically complex than their predecessors and have no proven track record working regular passenger trains*, as opposed to sticking with the tried and tested alternative?

*Granted that the class 92s, through European Passenger Services and Nightstar, were designed with the full intention of working heavy and power hungry sleeper trains over the West Coast main line, but they have never been extensively tested on such duties.
 
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alexl92

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Nice that 86101's getting a run too.
Is there any difference in terms of capability between 86101 and the 86/4 they've got (I can never remember its number) ?
 

Clip

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And we can expect many more such failures thanks to the choice of Serco to pursue loco hauled sets for the lowland rather than entering the 21st Century with EMUs.

Wow - another who can see into the future.


Got this weeks lottery numbers for Friday and Saturday please?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I feel that it is a little different for a dedicated sleeper service that runs only one train each day to/from each Scottish location, compared to the failure of a commuter or regional service where the next one is probably no more than half an hour away. If I had been on-board last night, the late arrival of the Fort William portion would have caused me to miss my typical Scottish Citylink reservation, despite the ample amount of time that I give in case of delays, and at a different time of year would also result in passengers potentially missing out on a pre-booked Jacobite trip. In the former case there are alternatives and in both instances passengers would be reimbursed the full price of their Sleeper ticket, but such a level of disappointment would give me cause for misgivings towards using the service in the future.

And what of those passengers who would have expected to arrive in London at 7am this morning, but instead probably didn't make it to Euston until 9:30am or perhaps later? That's not an inconsequential delay to whatever plans they might have had, even where they can be rearranged.

Hopefully, we are only witnessing teething troubles related to the introduction of the new loco type. With a dedicated franchise, I certainly hope that we will see a great deal of effort put into minimising the potential for delays and cancellations, as with only four trains (split into ten portions) in each twenty four hour period, any disruption will cause a dramatic reduction in PPM figures: Last night/this morning, 50% of the sleeper service either arrived at its' destination over an hour late, or failed to arrive at all!
.

Yes it is poor form and people were late getting to where they were - has this never happened before on the Sleeper?

Yes local trains fail and theres normally one along in a bit but did you want first group fired from Thameslink when they actually had people trapped for 2 hours or something in the busiest part of the country?

did anyone on here? I don't remember seeing you bemoan them or wanting them stripped of their franchise then so why now?

Oh yeah. Because it is Serco.
 

sprinterguy

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Yes it is poor form and people were late getting to where they were - has this never happened before on the Sleeper?

Yes local trains fail and theres normally one along in a bit but did you want first group fired from Thameslink when they actually had people trapped for 2 hours or something in the busiest part of the country?

did anyone on here? I don't remember seeing you bemoan them or wanting them stripped of their franchise then so why now?

Oh yeah. Because it is Serco.
I don't, personally, wish for Serco to be stripped of the sleeper franchise - at no point have I stated such. That does not stop me from questioning some of the decisions that they have made, this is a discussion forum after all. ;)

I was also surprised to see an insinuation that passengers who have been delayed for two hours or more in some instances, and turfed off their train short of their destination in the case of the southbound Sleeper, should just be expected to "get over it".

In the world of UK railway privatisation, such a small, niche and yet operationally complex franchise is essentially without precedent, and hence is worth watching closely to see how it performs. Plus, the remaining sleeper services are a vestigial remnant of a historical aspect of Britain's railways with a long pedigree, so tend to elicit strong emotional responses within the enthusiast fraternity (and also amongst regular users, from idly chatting to folk in the lounge car). I dimly recall the heated nature of the exchanges within the letters pages in RAIL magazine during the mid nineties when the future of the "Deerstalker" Fort William portion of the sleeper was less than certain.
 
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Clip

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I agree it is worth seeing how it performs. Over a year not just over 2 weeks though so that you can actually get a bigger and better picture of their performance rather then some who seem to throw their toys out of the pram as soon as something like this happens.


Which happens to all TOCs
 

JonathanH

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Also note that the southbound "Lowland" sleeper was cancelled at Milton Keynes this morning, at which point, according to Real Time Trains, it was nearly three hours late. Presumably sleeper passengers will have had to make onward connections from there in order to reach London at all.

Strange that I can't see any mention of either of these events on the Caledonian Sleepers' twitter feed - Would have at least expected some disgruntled passengers to pass comment.

Most of the passengers on 1M11 (including me) arrived in London at 0938 aboard 1U20 (London Midland's train from Crewe) having been detrained at Milton Keynes.

Apparently, 92028 (my first 92 for haulage) was almost declared a failure at Glasgow and left 20 minutes late. I was travelling in the seated carriage of the Edinburgh portion but I ran out of phone battery at Edinburgh so didn't really know what was going on.

I first awoke for a short while at Stafford where we had stopped in the through line and thought that was unusual. As you can see from Realtimetrains, we had not really lost any extra time between Carstairs and Stafford. The next time I woke up, there was a lot of Mark 2 breaking noise approaching Northampton having been sent that way because of the problems.

I'm not really sure what happened at Northampton. We were held on the through line short of the station from about 0650 until 0805. During that time a succession of 350s went into Northampton station and it seemed like we were never getting the platform. However, for at least some of that time, the engine was being reset as the air conditioning went on and off a few times.

By the time we arrived at Northampton all of the fast trains had departed and the message was to stay on until Milton Keynes. We seemed to fail again just short of Wolverton and eventually limped into Milton Keynes at 0852.

For me, my only bitterness is the hour spent north of Northampton and if any of that delay was down to simply not getting the platform. They don't like detraining the sleeper on a short platform but if we had been set down at Rugby at 0628, we would have been in London at 0726. Having had the train fail twice at Stafford, there must have been some thought that it would not get to London at that time and we wouldn't have had the hour at Northampton.
 

al.currie93

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And we can expect many more such failures thanks to the choice of Serco to pursue loco hauled sets for the lowland rather than entering the 21st Century with EMUs.

This is silly... there's nothing to show that locomotive hauled trains guarantee more failure rates than EMUs.

How is a locomotive failure the fault of Serco?

Quite right.

From what I have read on this thread, the coaching stock tripped a circuit breaker on the 92. For the life of me, I cant work out why that would be Serco's fault.

Serco have some fantastic plans for the sleeper service which I am looking forward to trying out in the future so you wont catch me moaning and whinging about their appointment being a mistake.

Trains fail, every single day in fact. Shame for those onboard but I am sure they will get over it.

Again, very true. If their service drops consistently then we'll know it was a mistake, but they have fantastic plans for these trains and I look forward to seeing them.
 

ADRboy

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And we can expect many more such failures thanks to the choice of Serco to pursue loco hauled sets for the lowland rather than entering the 21st Century with EMUs.

Did you want them to stop sleepers past Edinburgh & Glasgow so they could introduce EMU's?
 

Domh245

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One of the benefits of MUs is the usual duplication of equipment, which allows units some level of redundancy.

That didn't stop VT dragging 390s to North Wales in the past. A similar practice could have been put into place with a new sleeper EMU.
 

47802

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Did you want them to stop sleepers past Edinburgh & Glasgow so they could introduce EMU's?


Fleet of 5 car EMU that can run 5 x 3 and then Diesel Haul them from Edinburgh or Bi Mode (AT 300?):lol:

Loco Haulage belongs to the steam age.
 
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CC 72100

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Loco Haulage belongs to the steam age.

Obviously BR were and early privatisation operators were wrong for a good 40 years then :roll:

There seems to be a lot of Serco hatred on this thread. By all means it wasn't a fantastic situation, but I get the impression that some people are just using this as an opportunity to stick the boot into them.
 

CosherB

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Well blow me, the proverbial 5 minutes into a new franchise, one problem occurs and we are posting drivel somewhere between having a wet dream seeing a 40 year old loco on a back-up duty, and the end of the civilised world as we know it.

If only I was blessed with the so-called foresight of many on here (which I call hindsight).

The only criticism of Serco/GBRf is the slower than planned introduction of the refurbished 92s and rebuilt 73s. The reasons behind this can be answered by them, but I've no interest in heaping a ton of blame on any of them, simply because I'm writing from a position of complete ignorance on the subject. GBRf have put into place contingency measures in terms of keeping on the 67s (which I'd imagine will be around for a while longer as two are now in CS teal), so to suggest that a problem with 40 year old LHCS inherited by the franchise holder is justification for franchise-stripping and other hyperbole is laughable.

I think we should be glad that there is some competition available in the market to provide electric traction for LHCS - would we all prefer that DBS held a total monopoly on 90s and 92s? I hope, and I'm sure, that Serco/GBRf will get it sorted.
 

47802

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Obviously BR were and early privatisation operators were wrong for a good 40 years then :roll:

.

Early Diesels and Electrics were effectively a continuation of the steam age, and which private operators have essentially gone for Loco Haulage other than as essentially a stop gap for the current Diesel Shortage, and the Sleeper Train.
 
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ADRboy

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Fleet of 5 car EMU that can run 5 x 3 and then Diesel Haul them from Edinburgh or Bi Mode (AT 300?):lol:

Loco Haulage belongs to the steam age.

Loco-hauled from EDB then?

I have absolutely no love for Serco but this is a massive over-reaction. Sleepers failed when First had the franchise too and we didn't have this.
 

47802

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Loco-hauled from EDB then?

I have absolutely no love for Serco but this is a massive over-reaction. Sleepers failed when First had the franchise too and we didn't have this.

Well I would say Bi-mode but no doubt there would compliants about the engine noise keeping people awake. in any case it wouldn't be conventional Loco Hauled which would reduce as allegidly electrification expands
 

CosherB

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Well I would say Bi-mode but no doubt there would compliants about the engine noise keeping people awake. in any case it wouldn't be conventional Loco Hauled which would reduce as allegidly electrification expands

I have absolutely no idea what you're on about.
 

DarloRich

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There was a sleeper liveried 92 in the loop at Bletchley this evening. Nor sure if it was the errant loco from the morning
 

Domh245

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I have absolutely no idea what you're on about.

I think he is talking about the aforementioned proposal to run EMUs on the sleeper and how it would work on the Highland sleeper. He has suggested using bimodes to run them, but is pointing out that said proposal will not necessarily go down well with passengers.
 

47802

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I think he is talking about the aforementioned proposal to run EMUs on the sleeper and how it would work on the Highland sleeper. He has suggested using bimodes to run them, but is pointing out that said proposal will not necessarily go down well with passengers.

Indeed so, perhaps in this case of the Scottish sleeper it is perhaps still one of the few examples which does make more sense as Loco Hauled Train and hence will remain so with the new rolling stock, although its no doubt an expensive train to run in any form and I'm not sure about the choice of Motive Power.
 
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158722

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90035 reported running light from Polmadie, so S25 expected to be a 92, S26 with the 90. 86101 stood down for the usual ECS run.
 

CosherB

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Indeed so, perhaps in this case of the Scottish sleeper it is perhaps still one of the few examples which does make more sense as Loco Hauled Train and hence will remain so with the new rolling stock, although its no doubt an expensive train to run in any form and I'm not sure about the choice of Motive Power.

What's wrong with 67/68/73 for the diesel only routes, and 90/92 for the electric? I think you've 'missed the boat' for MU stock, in EMU or bi-mode formats, with the €200m CAF order for new carriages placed.
 

captainbigun

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None of the bidders thought that EMUs were viable. Not sure what's changed now.

Newsflash, EMUs also fail.
 

Class 170101

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The commuters of Kingussie. Aviemore and Carrbridge to Inverness won't be happy the sleeper train has been their commuter train for around 18 months now running two hours late doesn't exactly do much for getting to work.
 

Fishplate84

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The commuters of Kingussie. Aviemore and Carrbridge to Inverness won't be happy the sleeper train has been their commuter train for around 18 months now running two hours late doesn't exactly do much for getting to work.

It isn't the first time the sleeper has been comically late, and won't be the last time. If it fails, it fails big time. Interesting that it was a coach failure that tripped the loco. Coach failure of one sort or another seems to be a regular failing and it has been for a long time. They are life expired and I'm sure have been nursed along at the lowest possible cost for years. The new stock in a couple of years should bring a huge step jump in reliability.
 

sprinterguy

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Sleepers failed when First had the franchise too and we didn't have this.
I'm sure that there have been some fairly detailed threads (or at least, sections of existing threads) on this forum resulting from previous failures of the sleeper under First. As Fishplate84 says, when the sleeper fails, it tends to fail big time, which gives rise to comment.
 

breadfan

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I'm sure that there have been some fairly detailed threads (or at least, sections of existing threads) on this forum resulting from previous failures of the sleeper under First. As Fishplate84 says, when the sleeper fails, it tends to fail big time, which gives rise to comment.

Did 87002 come to the rescue of a sleeper a year or two ago? I seem to recall it was on ice breaking duties when the sleeper's 90 packed up around Carnforth. I think it was an Up sleeper which the 87 rescued and took to Preston where the train was terminated.

I could be wrong.
 
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