Short of freight in the form of Dft funding from Kielder forest to Carlisle. Maybe with Borders Council funding a couple of stations. The bit left to Hawick is not worth spending the money on. Many more projects in the queue on value for money terms. Don't hold your breath for it happening.
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Altnabreac
Established Member
Anyway lets not get bogged down discussing Carlisle.
Why not have a closer look at options for Tweedbank - Hawick.
How many stations would you have and where.
I reckon there are about 10 options of which 3 or 4 will be built:
Borders General Hospital
Regional medical centre and good potential to generate internal Borders rail journeys. Station would not be immediately adjacent to hospital and very close to Tweedbank.
Melrose (new site to west of old station)
Possibly better parking and road access than old station site, plus closer to BGH. Further from village centre.
Melrose (old station site)
Now in private ownership . Site very constrained by bypass with little room for parking or facilities. Close to village centre though.
Newstead
Relatively small village but possible park and ride site for towns in eastern Borders such as Earlston, Jedburgh and Kelso while also serving Melrose.
Newtown St Boswells
Council headquarters and a good sized village with expansion planned. Only definite station site on this list. Limited space for park and ride.
Charlesfield
Industrial Estate and empty field that was proposed as potential terminus in early feasibility studies looking at extensions beyond Tweedbank but short of Hawick. Park and Ride location for Jedburgh / Kelso but probably too far south for Earlston etc.
Belses
Former station but isolated site. Short of major new housing growth no chance of reopening.
Hassendean
As with Belses would need major development to justify a station.
Hawick (north of river Teviot)
Lower cost option than reopening previous site which needs demolition and a new bridge over the Teviot. Further from town centre though.
Hawick (old station site)
Major disruption to town needed. Probably only worthwhile if planning to continue to Carlisle.
Why not have a closer look at options for Tweedbank - Hawick.
How many stations would you have and where.
I reckon there are about 10 options of which 3 or 4 will be built:
Borders General Hospital
Regional medical centre and good potential to generate internal Borders rail journeys. Station would not be immediately adjacent to hospital and very close to Tweedbank.
Melrose (new site to west of old station)
Possibly better parking and road access than old station site, plus closer to BGH. Further from village centre.
Melrose (old station site)
Now in private ownership . Site very constrained by bypass with little room for parking or facilities. Close to village centre though.
Newstead
Relatively small village but possible park and ride site for towns in eastern Borders such as Earlston, Jedburgh and Kelso while also serving Melrose.
Newtown St Boswells
Council headquarters and a good sized village with expansion planned. Only definite station site on this list. Limited space for park and ride.
Charlesfield
Industrial Estate and empty field that was proposed as potential terminus in early feasibility studies looking at extensions beyond Tweedbank but short of Hawick. Park and Ride location for Jedburgh / Kelso but probably too far south for Earlston etc.
Belses
Former station but isolated site. Short of major new housing growth no chance of reopening.
Hassendean
As with Belses would need major development to justify a station.
Hawick (north of river Teviot)
Lower cost option than reopening previous site which needs demolition and a new bridge over the Teviot. Further from town centre though.
Hawick (old station site)
Major disruption to town needed. Probably only worthwhile if planning to continue to Carlisle.
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backontrack
Established Member
I'd expect Melrose and Newtown St Boswells to definitely go ahead; there's a possibility of Newstead and Charlesfield as well.
Don't pussy foot around in Hawick. Compulsory purchase part of the car park. After all, the new Hawick station,if our dream comes true, will be on the supermarket's doorstep & reduce some need for parking. Hundreds of Camden homes are being compulsory purchased for HS2. Why not 50 car park spaces in the Borders.
paul1609
Established Member
Did this line for the first time a couple of weekends ago, I would suggest the first priority should be sorting out the approach to Edinburgh. Up to 21 mins to go from Shawfair to Waverley through 10 mph restrictions is just silly.
GRALISTAIR
Established Member
I absolutely agree with you.
chiltern trev
Member
Now the Borders Railway has been open for some time, how is the X95 Edinburgh - Carlisle bus service doing?
The timetable appears to be little change and no impact at the Carlisle end of the route.
The timetable appears to be little change and no impact at the Carlisle end of the route.
kylemore
Member
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I think he is signalling a possible deal to the SNP/Scottish Govt of co-operation on major infrastructure projects. What the SNP's side of the deal would have to be is anyone's guess.
When politics take centre stage the economic considerations become largely irrelevant.
Worth noting another thread in this forum which says that First Group are going to close depots and withdraw from operating services in East Lothian and the Borders from August this year.
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=130883
I guess it might be worth the Scottish Government tendering for a bus services that links with trains at Tweedbank and Carlisle and runs along the route of the old Waverley Line, especially if there was through ticketing and guaranteed connections from certain trains.
Incidentally, the existing bus service between Berwick and Galashiels is one where ENCTS bus pass holders can legitimately travel in Scotland, provided their journey starts in England. (ie they can travel from Berwick to Kelso or Berwick to Galashiels, but not Kelso to Galashiels) Similarly Scottish concessionary pass holders can travel from Scotland to Berwick.
According to http://www.thenational.scot/news/ra...lans-to-axe-bus-services-in-the-borders.18067, the success of the Borders Railway is the justification for a wholesale removal of bus services in the area by First.
The reasoning offered both by First and by the Scottish Borders Council appears open to question.
Altnabreac
Established Member
First appear to be in decline across SE Scotland. None of those 11 service withdrawals can be blamed on the rail line.
Changing the X95 to an hourly service is fair enough and a reasonable response to the Borders Railway.
Here's a short glimpse of what the it might be like to ride in the cab of the bus replacement service from Hawick.
https://youtu.be/ANAT2gps38Y
https://youtu.be/ANAT2gps38Y
First Bus are threatening to pull out of the Borders. I'm on my phone so can't link into the story but check out the local Borders' press for more details.
Specifically the X95 would be reduced to an hourly service between Edinburgh & Galashiels.
This may not be rail related as they have also threatened East Lothian services too.
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Blindtraveler
Established Member
I went out shack scratching on the Midlothian section of the route a couple weeks ago whilst accompanying Techniquest who was visiting and couldnt help but notice hwo much local traffic has grown, even since my last usage of the line in early part of the year. The X95s used to do quite well with pax for Newtongrange, Eskbank Toll etc as its limmited stop but I can well see how many of these will now be empty with the acception of longer distance users, many of who will be consession holders.
I think we always knew the bus would suffer as those who pay high prices choos to get to town faster for the same money but I never thought theyd penalise Central Borders local trips, assuming these would be reorgonised to run from the new interchange at Gala possibly with altered routes and stops. Equally Stow with its 1TPH is also penalised. Whilst pulling out allows first to shrink its fleat and scrap many older vehicles I feel they should maybe considder things a bit as the Central Borders reduction may ultimately hit the X95 as less trips means less flexibilitty and if the longer distance trips start to suffer its a very bad thing for more southern locations
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Agreed but Im told any way of sorting this will be expensive. May improve once the 2 new Eastern bays are built at Waverley meaning the through roads are less cluttered with layovers
I think we always knew the bus would suffer as those who pay high prices choos to get to town faster for the same money but I never thought theyd penalise Central Borders local trips, assuming these would be reorgonised to run from the new interchange at Gala possibly with altered routes and stops. Equally Stow with its 1TPH is also penalised. Whilst pulling out allows first to shrink its fleat and scrap many older vehicles I feel they should maybe considder things a bit as the Central Borders reduction may ultimately hit the X95 as less trips means less flexibilitty and if the longer distance trips start to suffer its a very bad thing for more southern locations
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Agreed but Im told any way of sorting this will be expensive. May improve once the 2 new Eastern bays are built at Waverley meaning the through roads are less cluttered with layovers
Visiting smaller stations and crossing them off the list.
Blindtraveler
Established Member
Appologies. Visiting stations for the unniniciated
Altnabreac
Established Member
I was down in Gorebridge recently and was contemplating options for running a 2tph local Midlothian service.
I really don't think it would be simple to do any double tracking between Newtongrange and the Sheriffhall roundabout so you have to pretty much start with that as a single track section.
Newcraighall - Portobello though can be redoubled and the junction improved and I suspect this will go ahead in CP6 or CP7 anyway to improve resilience.
You then need a turnback somewhere for the Midlothian local service. Gorebridge station site is quite constrained, it would need a lot of work even to get a second platform in and there is nowhere to fit a turnback siding.
However I was wondering about the potential of Redheugh, between Gorebridge and Newtongrange where Midlothian Council have proposed a new station as part of major housing development in the area.
http://www.ema-architects.co.uk/projects/masterplanning/redheugh-midlothian/
A simple 150m one platform station in a turnback siding off the mainline here would be a cheap and easy solution.
The Tweedbank (or Hawick) trains could then run a semi fast 2tph service with another 2tph in Midlothian. Something like:
Tweedbank - Galashiels - Stow - Gorebridge - Eskbank - Edinburgh
Redheugh - Newtongrange - Eskbank - Shawfair - Newcraighall - Brunstane - Edinburgh
Dalkeith as the biggest town on the route gets a 4tph service, a new station helps develop housing growth and all journeys are speeded up for less than £5m.
What's not to like?
I really don't think it would be simple to do any double tracking between Newtongrange and the Sheriffhall roundabout so you have to pretty much start with that as a single track section.
Newcraighall - Portobello though can be redoubled and the junction improved and I suspect this will go ahead in CP6 or CP7 anyway to improve resilience.
You then need a turnback somewhere for the Midlothian local service. Gorebridge station site is quite constrained, it would need a lot of work even to get a second platform in and there is nowhere to fit a turnback siding.
However I was wondering about the potential of Redheugh, between Gorebridge and Newtongrange where Midlothian Council have proposed a new station as part of major housing development in the area.
http://www.ema-architects.co.uk/projects/masterplanning/redheugh-midlothian/
A simple 150m one platform station in a turnback siding off the mainline here would be a cheap and easy solution.
The Tweedbank (or Hawick) trains could then run a semi fast 2tph service with another 2tph in Midlothian. Something like:
Tweedbank - Galashiels - Stow - Gorebridge - Eskbank - Edinburgh
Redheugh - Newtongrange - Eskbank - Shawfair - Newcraighall - Brunstane - Edinburgh
Dalkeith as the biggest town on the route gets a 4tph service, a new station helps develop housing growth and all journeys are speeded up for less than £5m.
What's not to like?
Altnabreac
Established Member
Yes. Assumption would be passengers from Redheugh and Newtongrange who want to travel southwards cannot do so by direct train.
They can however:
Drive to Gorebridge and get train south.
Take the 29, 33 or 39 Lothian Bus to Gorebridge and get train south.
Take the First X95 bus direct to Borders.
Change trains by doubling back at Eskbank.
For the relatively small number of people this would affect I think it would be a downside worth considering.
iain-j
Member
At the last CRAG meeting Phil Verster told us Portobello Junction is pencilled in for CP6 but not much more details than that.
Given that Brunstane serves the Milton Road campus of Edinburgh College I'd say that it's omission from the Gorebridge stopping service is noticeable as the Campus attracts a high amount of students from the Gorebridge area and changing at Eskbank or doubling back at the Waverley may not be as appealing. Even if not for all services maybe 1 or 2 Edinburgh inbound stopping there in the morning, 1 in both directions at Lunch and 1 or 2 in the afternoon though more closer to 4pm than 5pm that the city centre sees as peak.
NotATrainspott
Established Member
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The passive provision for 4tph to Gorebridge presumably means properly doubling the line from Shawfair to Portobello Junction and adding a second track and platform at Newtongrange station. I don't see these services turning back before Gorebridge, especially when they will have to slot in with the service to Tweedbank. In passively providing for the extra services, NR will have had to come up with an indicative timetable. The slot for the suburban services to return back to Edinburgh will be fixed, so terminating short of Gorebridge might well just mean having to wait around longer to make up the same path anyway. Since the operational cost would be fixed, they may as well get revenue from Gorebridge passengers as well.
Altnabreac
Established Member
Some very interesting usage figures by station published today by Transport Scotland. Overall journeys are still around 20% higher than anticipated but there are some stations well ahead of expectation and some well behind.
http://www.transport.gov.scot/news/borders-railway-22-ahead-target-first-6-months
What the data shows is that in general demand has been lower than expected in Midlothian, perhaps the pricing here relative to the good quality Lothian Buses service hasn't quite been chosen correctly. Shawfair is a special case in that less development than expected has taken place so demand will take awhile to build.
In Edinburgh demand for travel to the line is broadly as expected.
In the Borders meanwhile the demand level is much higher than anticipated (5 to 10 times beyond what was expected).
I think an interesting number may be the differential between Tweedband (10 times higher) and Stow / Galashiels (5 times higher). The higher Tweedbank numbers may reflect the initial excitement, one off trips to try out the new line and possibly even the bargain fares mistake found by forum members and others.
However it looks like the figure of 5 times higher than expected numbers at Stow and Gala may reflect a genuine long term underestimate of demand for rail travel from the Borders. In the longer term I'd expect the Tweedbank figure to fall back to more like that seen at Galashiels but still stay well above expected demand levels.
http://www.transport.gov.scot/news/borders-railway-22-ahead-target-first-6-months
Borders Railway 22% ahead of target for first 6 months said:
What the data shows is that in general demand has been lower than expected in Midlothian, perhaps the pricing here relative to the good quality Lothian Buses service hasn't quite been chosen correctly. Shawfair is a special case in that less development than expected has taken place so demand will take awhile to build.
In Edinburgh demand for travel to the line is broadly as expected.
In the Borders meanwhile the demand level is much higher than anticipated (5 to 10 times beyond what was expected).
I think an interesting number may be the differential between Tweedband (10 times higher) and Stow / Galashiels (5 times higher). The higher Tweedbank numbers may reflect the initial excitement, one off trips to try out the new line and possibly even the bargain fares mistake found by forum members and others.
However it looks like the figure of 5 times higher than expected numbers at Stow and Gala may reflect a genuine long term underestimate of demand for rail travel from the Borders. In the longer term I'd expect the Tweedbank figure to fall back to more like that seen at Galashiels but still stay well above expected demand levels.
NotATrainspott
Established Member
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Very interesting indeed. If anything, this proves that it was a good idea to ensure that the line was built all the way. If the line had been opened to Gorebridge first, since that's where the nominal business case runs out, then passenger numbers would have been even lower at the Midlothian stations. If those numbers fell well below expectations, it may well have prevented the reopening to Tweedbank.
It also seems to suggest that the 4tph service to Gorebridge we were discussing earlier might not be needed for quite a long time.
I wonder if the lower figures from stations at the north end of the line are influenced by the difficulties of issuing tickets to passengers from these stations. Do Gorebridge, Newtongrange or Eskbank ever have revenue staff to sell tickets? I am surprised that Gorebridge in particular is running behind target. On the plus, the route is incredibly lucky that if any of the issues are to do with quality (some of the 158s are particularly tatty and dirty) or capacity (2 23m coaches often results in standees from Edinburgh) these will be being resolved in the next few years.
Good point Starmill. The trains to/from the Borders are generally unbarriered and it can be difficult to get all the fares collected before Gorebridge. There is also a small but significant flow between Brunstane & Eskbank and all it takes is dealing with one declined card transaction and many fares go a begging.
Also during the morning peak many passengers travel through to South Gyle which is not barriered on platform 2 conversely platform 1 is not barriered in the afternoon peak, so again "crossrail" passengers are not checked prior to boarding/alighting, and the train is often too busy for the guard to get through before Newcraighall.
That said the Midlothian stations do seem a lot quieter than expected. All I will say is LRT Ridacards & the £1.60 flat fare...
Also during the morning peak many passengers travel through to South Gyle which is not barriered on platform 2 conversely platform 1 is not barriered in the afternoon peak, so again "crossrail" passengers are not checked prior to boarding/alighting, and the train is often too busy for the guard to get through before Newcraighall.
That said the Midlothian stations do seem a lot quieter than expected. All I will say is LRT Ridacards & the £1.60 flat fare...
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For arrivals in the morning peak, are there ever revenue staff at Edinburgh to collect excess fares? Trains from Tweedbank of course don't use barriered platforms. Do TVMs at any of the stations (apart from possibly Brunstane and Newcraighall) even accept cash? Intriguing that there's a local flow between Brunstane and Eskbank!
I did see someone invited to leave the train at Shawfair a couple of weeks ago because they had come from Edinburgh and asked the guard for a single to Gorebridge. They had no money and when their card was declined they said "Oh, my card never works on your trains.".
I did see someone invited to leave the train at Shawfair a couple of weeks ago because they had come from Edinburgh and asked the guard for a single to Gorebridge. They had no money and when their card was declined they said "Oh, my card never works on your trains.".
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Depending on staffing levels trains arriving from the Borders will be barriered upon arrival from 07:00 to 10:00.
Trains may be barriered from 16:00 to 19:00 again staffing levels dependent.
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Trains may be barriered from 16:00 to 19:00 again staffing levels dependent.
Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk
Altnabreac
Established Member
When I was in Gorebridge last week there were 20 odd empty car parking spaces so about 75% full. Tweedbank on the other hand always seems to be rammed and overflow parking on the streets nearby so that does anecdotally seem to agree with these figures.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Brunstane and Eskbank are the 2 sites of former Jewel and Esk college that are now 2 of the campuses of Edinburgh College. Courses are often taught across multiple sites so there is a student flow there. Far be it from me to suggest anything but they may be a demographic who won't necessarily always buy a ticket unless asked to...
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