• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Class 387

Status
Not open for further replies.
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Class377/5

Established Member
Joined
19 Jun 2010
Messages
5,594
]
obviously i know of the cost issue, but would they want the reminants of FCC to run through to 2021? WOuld they want purple units coupled to southern green ones for another 5 years or so?..thats assuming the 377/5s are still coming back to southern.

I know the lower part of the coaches (the FCC dynamic blocks or what ever they are called) is vinyl but he whole coach is purple. Maybe just the removal of this and some other vinyl applied.

The whole train is purple. The viynal is only available to add in the blue part (plus there was also some for the FCC name).

The only way they are going to Southern colours is a complete repaint. That isn't available at Selhurst at present so cannot be done.

Don't forget that if you take the viynal off you have to reapply the TL logo, at present that a complete waste of money for a management contract that's all about keeping costs down.

As for another five years, the TL units don't have 12 months left on them on TL duties. After them making them Southern will be dealt with. All 9 377/2 will be fine (207/211/212 in FCC purple are all viynal with Southern paint underneath).
 

TH172341

Member
Joined
22 Aug 2010
Messages
392
From my understanding, with the 387/1s not moving to GWR, is it now more likely that they will be going to work on the Great Northern than the 377/5s, or has that not been decided yet? Just thinking with the 387s now possibly available, it'd make more sense for them to work the ECML with their 110 mph capability. Sorry if it's been covered!
 

ScotGG

Established Member
Joined
3 Apr 2013
Messages
1,367
That's a 66 coming down to tow the first 313 to Wolverton.

Bit difficult for a 387 to do seeing as the mods are done at Bletchley.


Capacity has changed yes but what was the alternative? Leave London Bridge as it was? You have stated that infrastructure issues were not solved, London Bridge requires massive change and it means real pain for a long term gain.

The forward planning is sadly not as good as it could have been with the original TLP plan of course meaning SE would have been able to pick up some stock prior to London Bridge HL works starting (with possibly 700s running around on various routes too). Last word is I do not agree with the point made of SE being a poor TOC that's seen no stock increase, it has.

But we are now getting well off the point of the thread now.

London Bridge is of course essential. Not complaining there at all. But plans to mitigate other impacts away from that project was what I was referring too, to enable longer trains with reduced paths.

Such as rebuild or move Woolwich Dockyard to take 12 car trains, or ensure stock with se metro has sdo.

Upgrade power supplies to handle it.

Ensure sidings can take more stock.

All that needed planning and implementation going back 5+ years. It wasn't completed. Some have been (12 cars at Rochester, Gravesend platform etc) but far from all. So now there's a big squeeze in capacity, especially on the fast growing Metro section up to Dartford and Hayes as paths reduced.

The DfT (and NR with that wider infrastrucutre plan?) cocked up. The late introduction of 700s is another factor, but even if they had SE Metro would still have SDO-less Networkers, Woolwich Dockyard, insufficient sidings and reduced paths in the peaks.
 
Last edited:

D365

Veteran Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
11,352
From my understanding, with the 387/1s not moving to GWR, is it now more likely that they will be going to work on the Great Northern than the 377/5s, or has that not been decided yet? Just thinking with the 387s now possibly available, it'd make more sense for them to work the ECML with their 110 mph capability. Sorry if it's been covered!

Rumours are indeed pointing towards the 387/1s going to Great Northern instead of the 377/5s.
 

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,768
Obviously pathing is the limiting factor, but could a 387/1 manage the Cambridge-London run significantly (as in a matter of minutes) quicker than the current 365s? They manage it a bit under 45 minutes with a clear run (think it's timetabled for 48!)
 

southern442

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2013
Messages
2,186
Location
Surrey
Near enough certain after a recent staff brief

It's now the destination of the 365s that's a big question mark.

It's too late to seriously propose anything, but why is there a need to get rid of them in the first place if they aren't needed anywhere else, and the identity of the replacement stock hasn't been finalized?
 

Domh245

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2013
Messages
8,426
Location
nowhere
Obviously pathing is the limiting factor, but could a 387/1 manage the Cambridge-London run significantly (as in a matter of minutes) quicker than the current 365s? They manage it a bit under 45 minutes with a clear run (think it's timetabled for 48!)

They've got a 10mph speed advantage that might be handy.
 

D365

Veteran Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
11,352
It's too late to seriously propose anything, but why is there a need to get rid of them in the first place if they aren't needed anywhere else, and the identity of the replacement stock hasn't been finalized?

Pre-GTR plans were that (aside from the Moorgate fleet) the 40 365s would be retained exclusively, so if the Electrostars are being bought over then there won't be a need for the full 365 fleet.
 

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,768
They've got a 10mph speed advantage that might be handy.

but is there enough distance with a limit above 100mph between Hitchin and Kings Cross to make a difference? it's only 31 miles. If it was all at speed (which would leave the train coming to a halt in pieces on Euston Road!) then at 100mph that's 18.6 minutes, at 110mph that's 16.9 minutes. But there's acceleration (out of the slow curve/junction at Hitchin) and deceleration (most importantly into Kings Cross!) and not all the line is >100mph. That all eats into that 102 seconds
 

Domh245

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2013
Messages
8,426
Location
nowhere
So, trying to take account of current rumours, this is what I think the situation looks like

F7v0lDU.png
 

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,768
It's too late to seriously propose anything, but why is there a need to get rid of them in the first place if they aren't needed anywhere else, and the identity of the replacement stock hasn't been finalized?

the last public plan was that most of the 377/5s would come to the GN to provide the Cambridge Express service with air conditioned stock, with enough for half-hourly service to Kings Lynn. about half the 365 fleet were to be retained for peak time addtional services- on both the Cambridge and Peterborough routes. But I'd assume if the 387s come over then those become the main Express fleet with the 377s for peak services. Which leaves 19-20 365s unaccounted for, as the balance are (currently) assigned to GWR
 

D365

Veteran Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
11,352
Which leaves 19-20 365s unaccounted for, as the balance are (currently) assigned to GWR

The 365 cascade to GWR has been seemingly annulled, with the additional 387s and five-car AT300s making up the balance.
 

southern442

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2013
Messages
2,186
Location
Surrey
Pre-GTR plans were that (aside from the Moorgate fleet) the 40 365s would be retained exclusively, so if the Electrostars are being bought over then there won't be a need for the full 365 fleet.

Yes, but why do the electrostars need to be brought over?
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
29,014
but is there enough distance with a limit above 100mph between Hitchin and Kings Cross to make a difference? it's only 31 miles. If it was all at speed (which would leave the train coming to a halt in pieces on Euston Road!) then at 100mph that's 18.6 minutes, at 110mph that's 16.9 minutes. But there's acceleration (out of the slow curve/junction at Hitchin) and deceleration (most importantly into Kings Cross!) and not all the line is >100mph. That all eats into that 102 seconds

The speed limits rises above 100mph on the down fast just short of the 8 mile post at Oakleigh Park. (It's the north portal of Potters Bar tunnel on the up fast). Hitchin is at 32miles. Difference between 110 and 100mph is 3.27 seconds per mile. Assuming instant acceleration and braking, the difference is 78 seconds down, 62 seconds up (due to the position of the junction at Hitchin, and the location of the speed change at Potters Bar). In practice it will be a minute at best down, 50 seconds up.
 

David Goddard

Established Member
Joined
8 Aug 2011
Messages
1,502
Location
Reading
The 365s, and the 317s before them, have in the past done the Cambridge run in 45 mins regularly, I assumed the current timetable added padding due to congestion. Having 387s at 110mph should enable these "Cambridge Cruisers" (sorry I still call them that) to come back down to 45 mins.
The future of 365s is a good debate- with TPX and Northern now having ordered their new trains that route is out, as now is GWR
 

asylumxl

Established Member
Joined
12 Feb 2009
Messages
4,260
Location
Hiding in your shadow
There's not really many places for the 365s it seems. I'd say put one on LM in place of 319s on the Abbey Line, but that'd be yet another microfleet. Still, they'd be more reliable than the 319s atm.
 
Last edited:

superalbs

Established Member
Joined
3 Jul 2014
Messages
2,454
Location
Exeter
The 365s, and the 317s before them, have in the past done the Cambridge run in 45 mins regularly, I assumed the current timetable added padding due to congestion. Having 387s at 110mph should enable these "Cambridge Cruisers" (sorry I still call them that) to come back down to 45 mins.
The future of 365s is a good debate- with TPX and Northern now having ordered their new trains that route is out, as now is GWR

Forty-six is too much?
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G71058/2016/06/13/advanced :P
 

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
7,348
The end to end time is largely irrelevant, but the higher top speed allows a shorter headway for any following train, improving capacity.

Exactly see the ORR's approval of extra ECML long distance path in late May and the introduction of IEP with better acceleration, to get the most capacity out of ECML fasts it is going to need TSGN stock with better a hight top speed and probably better acceleration too.
 

D365

Veteran Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
11,352
But from what others have said on this thread, not all of them can be converted to DC anymore.

I don't think that's a fact which has been officially verified.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Exactly see the ORR's approval of extra ECML long distance path in late May and the introduction of IEP with better acceleration, to get the most capacity out of ECML fasts it is going to need TSGN stock with better a hight top speed and probably better acceleration too.

Though I'm not sure if the Electrostar/Desiro types have better acceleration than a Class 365. Also worth noting is that the Thameslink 700 doesn't share the 'enhanced' top speed of Class 350/387.
 

Class377/5

Established Member
Joined
19 Jun 2010
Messages
5,594
Though I'm not sure if the Electrostar/Desiro types have better acceleration than a Class 365. Also worth noting is that the Thameslink 700 doesn't share the 'enhanced' top speed of Class 350/387.

While the 700s have a better acceleration rate, the Desiro City are supposed to be able to go up to 118mph above which the body shells don't need the spec IIRC.

Back on topic, keep your eyes peel on TL route this week.
 

trainmania100

Established Member
Joined
8 Nov 2015
Messages
2,566
Location
Newhaven
While the 700s have a better acceleration rate, the Desiro City are supposed to be able to go up to 118mph above which the body shells don't need the spec IIRC.

Back on topic, keep your eyes peel on TL route this week.

When will the 700s be entering service...they said a few weeks
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top