Routeing Guide Questions

b0b · 29 Jan 2010

Ok, I'm trying to write some computer code to figure out valid routes, I am aware of CORE but I want to try and figure out the Routeing Guide myself.

Here's a couple already:

1)What happens when the destination Routeing Point isn't on the final map? What is the point of it?
eg: Newton Lanark to London Group has one route "ER+HX+GN", but no London Group station is on map GN ....

2) with doubling back, "you may not pass through the same station twice" .... is that any station between routeing points on a map, or is it passing through the same routeing point or stations marked on the routeing maps.

basically I'm asking if you have to consider unmarked stations between routing points on the routeing maps.

RailUK Forums

John @ home · 29 Jan 2010

Welcome to the forum, b0b! Good luck in your project to write computer code to show valid routes.

b0b said:
1)What happens when the destination Routeing Point isn't on the final map? What is the point of it?
eg: Newton Lanark to London Group has one route "ER+HX+GN", but no London Group station is on map GN ....

But Newton Lanark is on map GN and

National Routeing Guide Page F8 said:
If the route code has several maps, route tracing must observe the following rules:
1. Tracing must start at one of the ends of the route code.
2. All maps must be used.
3. Maps must be used in strict sequence, first to last or last to first, according to the end of the route code where reading began.
4. Tracing may move from map to map only at a point where the two maps touch.
5. Once route tracing has left a map it cannot return to it.
6. Journeys may not double back except between stations which are members of a routeing point group for interchange or unless an easement permits it.

http://www.atoc.org/rsp/Routeing_Guide/nrg_detail.pdf

So "ER+HX+GN" can be used for a Newton Lanark to London journey travelling

Newton to Carlisle on map GN
Carlisle to Newcastle to York on map HX
York to Stevenage to Cambridge to London Liverpool Street on map ER

b0b said:
2) with doubling back, "you may not pass through the same station twice" .... is that any station between routeing points on a map, or is it passing through the same routeing point or stations marked on the routeing maps.

It's any railway station open for passenger services. Sometimes the opening of a new station restricts permitted routes. For example, in June 2008 I bought a ticket from Leeds to Nottingham. This came with reservations on Leeds - Loughborough and Loughborough - Nottingham trains. At that time, travel via Loughborough was permitted using map SY. Then East Midlands Parkway station opened. Although it's not at all obvious from map SY, travel from Leeds to Nottingham via Loughborough involves doubling back through East Midlands Parkway. There's no relevant easement, so it's no longer a permitted route.

Despite this, the WebTIS booking engines are happy to sell you a route Any Permitted ticket by this route but, perversely, not a Route Sheffield ticket despite the trains travelling via Sheffield. The booking engines use different approximations of the Routeing Guide.

The route above for Newton to Liverpool Street using maps "ER+HX+GN" also involves doubling back, in this case through Hitchin. But Hitchin is part of Stevenage Group, and doubling back within an intermediate Group is allowed (NRG page A6). So the route using "ER+HX+GN" described above is a permitted route.

Multiple Unit · 29 Jan 2010

Heres one example if stupiity..

I live In Birkenhead clsoe to CTL Station and Travel to Warrington Bank Quay Station daily at 6am in the morning now all the Journey planers say this route :-

B-Head Ctl
Lime St LL
Lime St ML
Earlestown
Warrington Bank Quay

But Why do all that fusing arround when this is a Better and More reliable route (Below)

B-Head Ctl
Chester
Warrington Bank Quay

Only have to wait 10 mins at Chester and don't even have to change platforms as such where as out of Lime St you are more proun to delay.

b0b · 29 Jan 2010

John @ home said:
Newton to Carlisle on map GN

Carlisle to Newcastle to York on map HX

York to Stevenage to Cambridge to London Liverpool Street on map ER

So the route using "ER+HX+GN" described above is a permitted route.

Aha, thanks, that was it: current output includes

route [Map GN, Map HX, Map ER]
Map GN to Map HX via [Routing Point CARLISLE, Routing Point NEWCASTLE]
Map HX to Map ER via [Routing Point YORK, Routing Point NEWCASTLE, Routing Point DARLINGTON, Routing Point MIDDLESBROUGH GROUP]

First class · 29 Jan 2010

Multiple Unit said:
Heres one example if stupiity..

I live In Birkenhead clsoe to CTL Station and Travel to Warrington Bank Quay Station daily at 6am in the morning now all the Journey planers say this route :-

B-Head Ctl
Lime St LL
Lime St ML
Earlestown
Warrington Bank Quay

But Why do all that fusing arround when this is a Better and More reliable route (Below)

B-Head Ctl
Chester
Warrington Bank Quay

Only have to wait 10 mins at Chester and don't even have to change platforms as such where as out of Lime St you are more proun to delay.

I am assuming straightaway that via Chester is definitely not permitted. I don't have the routeing guide available atm, but a quick check of Chester-Warrington fares shows me that they cost MORE than from Birkenhead. Of course, fare costs don't necessarily determine validity.

If someone can confirm this please!

If I'm right as I suspect I am, you are liable to be charged an excess fare/new ticket for going an invalid route.

It's not:

1) The shortest route.
2) No direct trains go that route.

clagmonster · 29 Jan 2010

Multiple Unit,
Possible routeing points for Birkenhead Central are Hooton and the Liverpool Group. Warrington Bank Quay is a member of the Warrington Group.
Therefore, we need to find which of the routeing points for Birkenhead Central are appropriate, by using the fare check rule.
The through day single from Birkenhead Ctl to Warrington Bk Qy costs £5.30.
The route any permitted day single from Hooton to Warrington Bk Qy costs £4.70, so Hooton is an appropriate routeing point.
The day single from Liverpool Stns to Warrington Bk Qy costs £4.10, so Liverpool is also an appropriate routeing point.

Therefore, you should take the shortest route from Birkenhead to either Liverpool or Hooton, then any mapped route from there.

The only routeing permission from Hooton to Warrington Group is ML.
This allows:
Hooton-Liverpool Group-Hunts Cross Group-Warrington
For this, you would be doubling back between Birkenhead Central-Hooton.
Therefore this wouldn't be a valid route.

The only way your route could be valid is if it is the shortest possible route, or within 3 miles of it, but without checking I am 99% certain that the route via Ellesmere Port would beat it comfortably. You would therefore be best splitting at somewhere like Chester if you want to go that way.

The one thing that does appear daft from checking this is Hooton to Warrington has a route Liverpool fare which is more expensive than any permitted, but the any permitted would be valid via Liverpool.

tony_mac · 29 Jan 2010

The one thing that does appear daft from checking this is Hooton to Warrington has a route Liverpool fare which is more expensive than any permitted, but the any permitted would be valid via Liverpool.

The Routeing guide isn't entirely clear on this; it does contradict itself, but in one of the examples says

If the Any Permitted fare is less than the Manchester routed fare, the ticketholder may not go via Manchester

Reading to Manchester is an example where this does seem to be applied in practice.

and via Ellesmere Port is more than 3 miles shorter than via Chester.

clagmonster · 29 Jan 2010

The following is the relevent paragraph in the instructions section:
"If a choice of routes is available and the fare for the
journey is described as "Any Permitted" route or is unrouted, you are free to
choose any of the routes listed in the Guide. Where the fare specifies a
particular route, you may choose only those routes listed in the Guide which
pass through the station shown in the route description. The Routeing Guide
may have to be used to find out how to reach the station shown in the route
description. Where there are other permitted routes, these may also be used
for the same journey provided the same or a lower fare applies."
First off, if the ticket is route any permitted then it may be used via any of the routes listed in the guide. For the Hooton to Warrington case, this includes via Liverpool and via Ellesmere Port.
This section only mentions restrictions of using a route restricted ticket, it doesn't mention the converse, thus giving no suggestion that an any permitted ticket would not be valid via Liverpool if there is a route Liverpool ticket. I believe this is yet another case of the routeing guide contradicting itself, which really needs to be sorted.

Multiple Unit · 30 Jan 2010

Its all crazy But one tyhing that sticks out is that the Routing Guide is only a Guide therfore it is no Gospel as if it was a Routing Rule Book then it would be Gospel and to be obided by.

As said Chester is less hastle and more reliable route to take from BHC as no Direct Train affter 06.18 so I would have lots of messing around to do and with me having a walking Disabiltiy its hard to get up and down stairs and accross bridges and stuff.

So traveling to Chester wher in the 10minute COnection time ie.Train from BHC to CTR arrives at 07.27 Platform 7 and to Warrington Departs from Platfrom from platfrom 4a anex to each other no climing Bridges as Earlestown & NLW are not fully Disabled Accesable.

yorkie · 30 Jan 2010

Multiple Unit said:
Its all crazy But one tyhing that sticks out is that the Routing Guide is only a Guide therfore it is no Gospel as if it was a Routing Rule Book then it would be Gospel and to be obided by.

Ticket conditions are bound by the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (NRCoC)

Conditions of Carriage said:
13. The route you are entitled to take
(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:
(i) a through train;
(ii) trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled
passenger services; or
(iii) trains which take the routes shown in the National Routeing Guide
(details as to how you can obtain this information will be available
when you buy your ticket).
(b) If you are using a Zonal Ticket you may travel in trains which take any route within the zone or zones shown on the ticket.
(c) Together, the routes referred to in (a) (ii), (a) (iii) and (b) above are the “permitted routes”.
(d) The use of some tickets may be restricted to trains which take:
(i) routes passing through, or avoiding, particular locations; or
(ii) the most direct route.
These restrictions will be shown on the ticket.
(e) If you make your journey by a route other than those referred to in (a) and (b) above, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess fare will be the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket(s) available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel by that route.
(f) For the purposes of this Condition, a “through train” is one which may be used by a passenger to make their entire journey without changing trains.

I agree it's not "Gospel", it's actually a real condition, not a load of religious propaganda! :lol:

Multiple Unit said:
So traveling to Chester wher in the 10minute COnection time ie.Train from BHC to CTR arrives at 07.27 Platform 7 and to Warrington Departs from Platfrom from platfrom 4a anex to each other no climing Bridges as Earlestown & NLW are not fully Disabled Accesable.

If you have a disability and feel that a route is more suitable for the reasons you state, then it is unlikely anyone is going to challenge that, and if they did then they'd deserve to be featured in newspapers in a negative light in the inevitable bad press that they'd get.

Multiple Unit · 30 Jan 2010

yorkie said:
Ticket conditions are bound by the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (NRCoC)

I agree it's not "Gospel", it's actually a real condition, not a load of religious propaganda!

If you have a disability and feel that a route is more suitable for the reasons you state, then it is unlikely anyone is going to challenge that, and if they did then they'd deserve to be featured in newspapers in a negative light in the inevitable bad press that they'd get.

Yeh I had a problem with one Guard once affter explaing my Disabilty to him and he refused to Belive me and verbaly brought me down to the point where I almost cried I wrote to the TOC and they apologised.

Note *Im not mentioning the TOC for various reasons*

A60K · 31 Jan 2010

Multiple Unit said:
Yeh I had a problem with one Guard once affter explaing my Disabilty to him and he refused to Belive me and verbaly brought me down to the point where I almost cried I wrote to the TOC and they apologised.

Note *Im not mentioning the TOC for various reasons*

There is a note within the Routing Guide which says that passengers with disabilities should be allowed flexibility in their route - which by law they need to do to allow disabled people leeway when they use services. I think it's worth writing to the TOC you use the most, reminding them of this, asking them to remind their staff of this, and for written confirmation that you can carry with you. If you then still got hassle write to Passenger Focus, the Equal Opportunities Commission and your MP.

b0b · 31 Jan 2010

Here's another question where the answer isn't obvious to me, why do some of the maps have "via's" as well as direct routes.

eg. taking my Newton Lanark->London Group, map AS shows Rugby > Watford Junction direct, but also shows Rugby > Watford Junction via Northampton.

I would have assumed that the "via Northampton" being shown on the map is unnecessary in this case as all lines between Rugby and Watford Junction would be valid routes ... Or are you not allowed to travel through a routeing point that's not on a map? eg. if map AS doesn't show the via Northampton option, you cannot travel via Northampton because its a routeing point?

John @ home · 31 Jan 2010

b0b said:
Here's another question where the answer isn't obvious to me, why do some of the maps have "via's" as well as direct routes.

The Routeing Guide contains many inconsistencies. Sometimes they show all the possible routes between two adjacent routeing points, sometimes they don't.

b0b said:
eg. taking my Newton Lanark->London Group, map AS shows Rugby > Watford Junction direct, but also shows Rugby > Watford Junction via Northampton.

Correct. The orange circles and white circles in map AS appear for information only. This map is only for London - Scotland journeys and journeys between Scotland and other stations via London. But the appearance of the same layout on, say, map LC is more significant. Northampton is an origin or destination Routeing Point for several journeys using this map.

b0b said:
I would have assumed that the "via Northampton" being shown on the map is unnecessary in this case as all lines between Rugby and Watford Junction would be valid routes

I think the position is that if a line is shown between adjacent Routeing Points on an appropriate map then, unless there is an indication to the contrary, a passenger travelling between these two routeing points on a valid map for their journey may travel by any route which does not go through another Routeing Point and which obeys all the other relevant rules such as (normally) no doubling back.

b0b said:
are you not allowed to travel through a routeing point that's not on a map?

I'm not aware of a rule that specifically says that, but I think you may very well be right. Hence my use of the word adjacent above. On map AS, Bletchley and Rugby may or may not be adjacent Routeing Points depending on the route taken. I think it is therefore prudent to show the routes both via and avoiding Northampton.

But map coverage is not always so comprehensive. For example, Leeds and York are adjacent Routeing Points. It is also possible to travel between them via some other Routeing Points. There are two routes between Leeds and York which do not pass through any other Routeing Point - via Harrogate and via Garforth. Routes between Leeds and York not passing through any other Routeing Point appear on 8 maps:

maps CE and NE show a route via Harrogate and another route, presumably via Garforth
map MW shows two routes and leaves one to guess that one must be via Harrogate and the other via Garforth
map MM shows one route only and the intermediate station Church Fenton. This means that when using MM travel via Garforth is valid but travel via Harrogate is not
maps AS LS LY PN and TP show only a single line between Leeds and York. In the absence of anything to the contrary, one must conclude that any route not passing through another Routeing Point is valid.

b0b · 31 Jan 2010

Ah, thanks for your reply again. I keep forgetting map AS is "special", as famously discovered by Clive Feather http://www.rossrail.com/central/routeqn1.html :lol:

Even though AS is London>Scotland, anyone with a ticket that allows a break of journey is obviously interested in which routes they can take, so the map does have some meaning. I know I've found other cases too, I just pick on the Newton Lanark > London Group as I know that trip well. (at least via the WCML and ECML ... I had no idea the flexibility a Scotland>London ticket really had!)

I'm wondering if it is possible to break down map AS into a union of other maps, which is sort of suggested by the ATOC reply to Clive, that for a London>Glasgow journey - AS allows London Kings X to Edinburgh, but then you must consult FC for the Edinburgh > Glasgow part.

Oh I just discovered another example: map ER: Stevenage to Finsbury Park is indicated direct and via Hertford North..

John @ home · 31 Jan 2010

b0b said:
I'm wondering if it is possible to break down map AS into a union of other maps, which is sort of suggested by the ATOC reply to Clive, that for a London>Glasgow journey - AS allows London Kings X to Edinburgh, but then you must consult FC for the Edinburgh > Glasgow part.

I don't think so. The Routeing Guide changes too often. For example, Edinburgh - Glasgow is now map EG, not FC. Travel via Larbert, which was suggested by ATOC to Clive Feather in September 1998, is no longer allowed.

This ATOC price list suggests that Routeing Guide data is updated 13 times a year.

b0b · 31 Jan 2010

New Routeing Guide Question: here is some output from my code

ROUTING Station BATH SPA TO Station CRAVEN ARMS
2 routes found
route [Map BD]

route [Map CE, Map CA]
Map CE to Map CA via [Routing Point BIRMINGHAM GROUP, Routing Point NUNEATON, Routing Point SMETHWICK GROUP]

using map BD, it finds the most obvious route:
BATH SPA -> BRISTOL GROUP -> NEWPORT (S.WALES) -> HEREFORD -> CRAVEN ARMS

but also finds:

BATH SPA -> WESTBURY GROUP -> CHIPPENHAM -> SWINDON (WILTS) -> BRISTOL GROUP -> NEWPORT (S.WALES) -> HEREFORD -> CRAVEN ARMS

is that valid? I can't rule it out.

tony_mac · 31 Jan 2010

Actually, that looks ok too (officially).
It looks like doubling-back through Trowbridge is ok, it's part of Westbury group (or it was when a sensible list existed).

BTW, do you know how you want your software to work? Do you know that evaluating all permitted routes just isn't practical? - e.g. Aberdeen to London has millions of them.

Map AS is a good place to start for testing purposes.
(BTW, I started a similar project, but gave up as a) I didn't have any map data, and b) I couldn't be bothered!)

b0b · 31 Jan 2010

tony_mac said:
Map AS is a good place to start for testing purposes. (BTW, I started a similar project, but gave up as a) I didn't have any map data, and b) I couldn't be bothered!)

I'm avoiding Map AS right now, for precisely that reason. You're right though, even the Bath Spa > Craven Arms has it, as of now, considering 766 routes on one map before it starts cutting it down to 77 routes - lots of which are still not valid but it is not yet aware of intermediate stations.

I'm doing it mainly to understand the RG, not necessarily to come up with the "what is any permitted", though its a nice goal.

Multiple Unit · 1 Feb 2010

A60K said:
There is a note within the Routing Guide which says that passengers with disabilities should be allowed flexibility in their route - which by law they need to do to allow disabled people leeway when they use services. I think it's worth writing to the TOC you use the most, reminding them of this, asking them to remind their staff of this, and for written confirmation that you can carry with you. If you then still got hassle write to Passenger Focus, the Equal Opportunities Commission and your MP.

TBH its only two Guards within the whole TOC involved some Gaurds have asked and I have explained my Disability and they have been fine and with Merseyrail the staff are only two happy to help you.

An example of this was Yesterday when I had been at a Freinds in Liverpool on the Saturday night and Was going to have a ride up to Southport I bought my ticket from the TVM not realising that it was to be formed of a Rail Replacement Bus from St.Gorges Hall which is a stiff up hill walk from when you have just come from down that way which didn't fancy.

So therfore I went in to the MtoGo shop and Bought a ticket to Chester instead and asked for a refund form explaing what I had done the lady on the next till non issued the ticket and refunded me, This I never new they could do.

First class · 1 Feb 2010

Multiple Unit said:
So therfore I went in to the MtoGo shop and Bought a ticket to Chester instead and asked for a refund form explaing what I had done the lady on the next till non issued the ticket and refunded me, This I never new they could do.

Technically if you get it from a Merseyrail TVM, you're supposed to write into customer relations for the refund- but in your case they've been quite helpful and used common sense.

You could have got a Southport-Chester ticket for the same price as Liverpool-Chester (valid via Liverpool), applied for a charter discount for a delay caused by the rail replacement bus!

Nick W · 1 Feb 2010

I'm very interested in how you go with the project as I intend to start a much bigger project in the summer to create a whole new railway engine (starting with routing). The hope is that one day we might be able to obtain ATOC feeds and start a new service.

b0b · 2 Feb 2010

I was hoping to use the National Rail timetable to determine double-backs, but its not a perfect system. The NRT will tell me which stations between routing points that trains pass through, but obviously does not tell me if the train does pass though the station or is able to use an avoiding line or avoiding route for example.

I was hoping to mitigate the problem by considering all the possible timetabled routes between stations and then considering stations that appear on all routes as stations that cannot be doubled back through.

It also doesn't tell me which route is used when there are more than 1 route. For example, looking at the NRT, a train from Motherwell to Glasgow Central could go:

1) WCML
2) WCML via Wishaw
3) via Netwon and Mount Florida
4) via Newton and Pollockshaws
5) via Newton South Jn to pass through Newton then heading back to the WCML from the North side
6) (not possible without a reverse) via Hamilton Circle and Newton and Cambuslang / Cathcart Circle

From what I remember, there is not one common station in that combo, but a trip say from Carlisle to Newton via Glasgow (assuming that is valid) would double back through Cambuslang if you use the Argyle Line.

(easement 25 that allows the double back via Cambuslang in this case!) :lol:

Oh I just noticed on map FK (for journeys between Carlisle>Newton) that Newton is marked "on the line" between Motherwell and Glasgow, but all Carlisle to Glasgow trains would use the WCML which avoids passing through Newton!

I don't think there is any documentation that would tell me the typical booked route of a train that's public? Any hints?

Perhaps it wouldn't be so hard to add in that intelligence manually to fix most of the problems though. I wonder how many cases are there.

John @ home · 2 Feb 2010

b0b said:
I don't think there is any documentation that would tell me the typical booked route of a train that's public? Any hints?

Passenger Train Services over Unusual Lines (PSUL) may be a useful place to start.

tony_mac · 2 Feb 2010

Are Glasgow and Motherwell actually next to each other on any map?

I would assume that you can take any route between the two, provided that it doesn't double-back, or pass through some other routeing point.

b0b · 2 Feb 2010

tony_mac said:
Are Glasgow and Motherwell actually next to each other on any map?

I would assume that you can take any route between the two, provided that it doesn't double-back, or pass through some other routeing point.

Interestingly, Newton Station is shown (on map FK/AS) as between Glasgow Group and Motherwell Group, but only trains that go round the Hamilton Circle pass through the station, the WCML passes to the side of the station itself.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&s...19102,-4.131181&spn=0.00484,0.012467&t=h&z=17

the platforms are on the branch line to the Hamilton Circle, the WCML passes along the top to the top right...

David · 2 Feb 2010

b0b said:
Interestingly, Newton Station is shown (on map FK/AS) as between Glasgow Group and Motherwell Group, but only trains that go round the Hamilton Circle pass through the station, the WCML passes to the side of the station itself.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&s...19102,-4.131181&spn=0.00484,0.012467&t=h&z=17

the platforms are on the branch line to the Hamilton Circle, the WCML passes along the top to the top right...

Scroll left a little, and you'll see the unit that Virgin use for their "super-fast" service between Glasgow and Euston ! :lol:

b0b · 2 Feb 2010

David said:
Scroll left a little, and you'll see the unit that Virgin use for their "super-fast" service between Glasgow and Euston !

I wondered what the heck that was, a 2 car Vomiter? :lol:

jopsuk · 2 Feb 2010

David said:
Scroll left a little, and you'll see the unit that Virgin use for their "super-fast" service between Glasgow and Euston !

Ahahah! That's some lovely timing from the aerial photographer coupled to some lovely blending from the algorithm that smooths out the joins.

There's lots of cases of half trains, extra-long units, ghost carriages etc around. But that's easily the best "cut and shut" I've seen.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

b0b said:
Interestingly, Newton Station is shown (on map FK/AS) as between Glasgow Group and Motherwell Group, but only trains that go round the Hamilton Circle pass through the station, the WCML passes to the side of the station itself.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&s...19102,-4.131181&spn=0.00484,0.012467&t=h&z=17

the platforms are on the branch line to the Hamilton Circle, the WCML passes along the top to the top right...

That's actually a good point- what is the official line with regards "doubling back" where fast trains don't actually got through the station itself? It's quite a common situation where the four track layout is mains + reliefs rather than having fasts inside the slows.

b0b · 2 Feb 2010

jopsuk said:
That's actually a good point- what is the official line with regards "doubling back" where fast trains don't actually got through the station itself? It's quite a common situation where the four track layout is mains + reliefs rather than having fasts inside the slows.

Well most of the time there are platforms on the fast lines, so it would be really tough to argue that you haven't passed through the station, tho an interesting question would be what if no trains are booked to call at the fast platforms. Some stations even have locked access to the fast platforms, so they are effectively closed ... again, does that count. Probably does count, but seems unfair.

The Newton situation is different, there are no platforms on the WCML alignment, there are trees between the station and the WCML and trains would need to use a junction to actually pass through any Newton platform. So I don't think you can see you have passed through the station in that case.

But the routing maps would have you believe that all trips between Motherwell and Glasgow pass through Newton so does that mean you are considered to have passed through Newton station ... ?

The SPT map clarifies the situation:
http://spt.co.uk/wmslib/Maps/rail_network_2007.jpg

the WCML is the Green Route from Carlisle to Carluke, then along the Limited Service route to Uddingston, then the WCML continues as the Yellow Route to Glasgow Central

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