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Circular Services and the Routeing Guide (and break of journey)

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First class

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On Merseyrail all the Wirral line trains run as circular services in the WTT.

If I purchased an Overpool to Ellesmere Port ticket, presumably I can travel via Liverpool because:

1) It is a direct train
2) There is no negative easement
3) The restriction code allows Break of Journey

Most customers wish to make journeys by through trains or by the
shortest route. In both cases they will be travelling on a permitted route

-Does the "double back" prohibited rule apply if the train is a direct one?

The ticket in question is a SDS £1.50 Overpool to Ellesmere Port route Any Permitted using a typical Merseyrail ELP circular service.
The fare to Liverpool SDS £4.00.

Ellesmere Port [ELP]
Overpool [OVE] - GET ON HERE
Little Sutton [LTT]
Hooton [HOO]
Eastham Rake [ERA]
Bromborough [BOM]
Bromborough Rake [BMR]
Spital [SPI]
Port Sunlight [PSL]
Bebington [BEB]
Rock Ferry [RFY]
Green Lane [GNL]
Birkenhead Central [BKC]
Hamilton Square [BKQ]
James Street [LVJ]
Moorfields [MRF]
Liverpool Lime Street [LIV]
Liverpool Central [LVC] - BREAK JOURNEY HERE
James Street [LVJ]
Hamilton Square [BKQ]
Birkenhead Central [BKC]
Green Lane [GNL]
Rock Ferry [RFY]
Bebington [BEB]
Port Sunlight [PSL]
Spital [SPI]
Bromborough Rake [BMR]
Bromborough [BOM]
Eastham Rake [ERA]
Hooton [HOO]
Little Sutton [LTT]
Overpool [OVE]
Ellesmere Port [ELP] - BUY TICKET OVERPOOL TO HERE

I assume that in this instance the ticket route would have to be NOT LIVERPOOL to prevent travelling the long way round... (which can't be changed as the SDS is a protected fare in this case). The only other thing possible is to introduce a negative easement or change the services to start/terminate somewhere which wouldn't be practical seeing as all info systems are set up for that.
 
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In my opinion it is valid because the RG asks you to check if the train is a direct service/shortest route before consulting the RG
 

First class

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NRES also allows this fare to be used via Liverpool. Hmm food for thought anyway.




A Bache to Chester season is £7.00 for 7 days and would then allow travel via Liverpool!!!

A Bache to Liverpool SDS is £5.15 for 1 day!
 

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bb21

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Prepare for a new negative easement appearing soon.
 

First class

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Prepare for a new negative easement appearing soon.

I doubt it, seeing as I am very, very, very familar with the person designing/managing the fares (for the time being at least)... ;)

A negative easement requires permission from EVERY possible affected TOC, and then the DfT and ATOC Fares Service (ATOS). The cost is prohibitive considering how few people would even "risk" it...

(Edit- actually could probably just apply to DfT and ATOC for negative easement as it only affects Merseyrail (all revenue should be attributable to Merseyrail), but still costly).

Still surprises me this hasn't caught on in Cheshire. Anyone with gripes with the Day Saver knows what to buy from the TVM now.


Just curious over my RG intepretation.
 
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OwlMan

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What has the WTT got to do with the Routeing Guide.
The rule is as follows
A through train is advertised in the passenger railway timetable as a direct
service which offers travel between a customer’s origin station and final
destination, as printed on the ticket for the journey being made. This route may not be a permitted route if a change of train is necessary to complete the journey.

I can not see this service advertised as a through service in the Passenger Railway Timetable.
I can not see any reason why it is/should be valid

Peter
 

First class

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What has the WTT got to do with the Routeing Guide.
The rule is as follows


I can not see this service advertised as a through service in the Passenger Railway Timetable.
I can not see any reason why it is/should be valid

Peter

As I say, NRES is okay with it!

It says it is the Chester to Chester service, which surely is Passenger Info?
The LDB also shows it as Chester to Chester.

What defines Passenger Railway Timetable because it usually refers to the National Rail Timetable, so presumably there is a difference?
 

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Mojo

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Bear in mind that the text quoted is only quoting the rights given to you by section 13 (a) of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (NRCoC).

13. The route you are entitled to take
(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in: (i) a through train;
(ii) trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger services; or
(iii) trains which take the routes shown in the National Routeing Guide (details as to how you can obtain this information will be available when you buy your ticket).

Whilst I am not making any comments on the validity of your statement, if it is, as you assert, classed as "a through train," any negative easement would have little or no bearing due to the rights given by the NRCoC.
 

yorkie

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I think it's valid providing you remain on the through train. If you exit at an intermediate station then you are no longer on a through train and can be excessed (or worse) as appropriate.

The same situation occurs on Scotrail services via Glenrothes and a guard here confirmed the above applies.

ATOC should simply clarify that in the rules and that avoids any need for negative "easements" (which don't apply to the shortest route anyway)
 

bb21

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The NRT does not class it as a through train. The inbound services terminate at Liverpool Central and the outbound services start at Moorfields.

See Table 106.
 

First class

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The NRT does not class it as a through train. The inbound services terminate at Liverpool Central and the outbound services start at Moorfields.

See Table 106.

But the RG does not refer you solely to the NRT. It refers to Passenger Timetable, (which could be something a TOC or PTE produces or National Rail produce).

NRES (online at least) show it as a Chester to Chester service and will list the timings for that train as a circular service, which surely can only be viewed as a passenger timetable.
 

yorkie

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Agreed. It's dubious - but it should be valid. But if the customer attempted exit at any intermediate station then the argument that "I was on a through train" looks very silly and indefensible. I do not think this is at all useable as a cheap way to commute to Liverpool and the "break of journey" excuse can't really wash when your only reason for going a long way round is "it was a through train"!
 

First class

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Agreed. It's dubious - but it should be valid. But if the customer attempted exit at any intermediate station then the argument that "I was on a through train" looks very silly and indefensible. I do not think this is at all useable as a cheap way to commute to Liverpool and the "break of journey" excuse can't really wash when your only reason for going a long way round is "it was a through train"!

Thanks for the input.

Nobody (AFAIK) has tried this, but wanted to fully understand the implications of the circular timetables.

But if I buy a Bache to Chester ticket, stay on the train and go via Liverpool and then get back of at Bache, (e.g. Bache to Bache), what is the excess fare if stopped? Bache-Liverpool or Penalty Fare?

My conclusion:

Valid for travel via Liverpool and intermediate stations
Not valid for Break of Journey at Liverpool Central or intermediate stations

-Which makes the anomaly useless unless you fancy a trip around the Merseyrail Wirral Line.
 

bb21

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Merseyrail timetables also list such services as terminating/starting in central Liverpool.

Given that the NRES provides the definitive source, it can possibly be argued that it is a through service. Would I be willing to try it at Liverpool Central? Nope.

But if I buy a Bache to Chester ticket, stay on the train and go via Liverpool and then get back of at Bache, (e.g. Bache to Bache), what is the excess fare if stopped? Bache-Liverpool or Penalty Fare?

In view of the information given by NRES, probably none.

My conclusion:

Valid for travel via Liverpool and intermediate stations
Not valid for Break of Journey at Liverpool Central or intermediate stations

-Which makes the anomaly useless unless you fancy a trip around the Merseyrail Wirral Line.

Which I think is a sensible way of looking at it.
 

Lampshade

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It's the same as Clapham Junction - Earlsfield being valid via Richmond, Strawberry Hill and Wimbledon. Yes it's valid but I wouldn't like to chance it or expect to get away with it for very long.

-Which makes the anomaly useless unless you fancy a trip around the Merseyrail Wirral Line.

A bargain if you want to accumulate some 507 mileage :D
 

hairyhandedfool

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Easements can't apply to direct trains (the NRCoC defines a direct train as one that stops at the origin and destination printed on the ticket) and provided a break of journey is allowed by the ticket conditions I see no problem with breaking your journey at any point along the route of a direct train provided you use the direct train(s).

However, I would be very careful of travelling on trains which stop at the destination station (or origin station) twice, as passing through it could be seen as going over-distance (or possibly off route) and could leave you paying for an excess, a new fare or a Penalty Fare.
 

jopsuk

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I suppose the problem we have here is the Liverpool loop being an odd case even compared to the Fife Circle, Sutton loop etc- combined with somone who wants to test the very boundaries of the law on the basis that it is the letter, not the spirit, that is key.
 

4SRKT

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Presumably on this basis I could travel from Edinburgh to Haymarket via the Fife Circle on an Edinburgh > Haymarket single on the grounds that it is a through train (and stated thus in NRE)?

Would it also mean that if I lived in Romsey and wanted to commute to Southampton, instead of buying an anytime return for £4.40, I could instead buy a single to Dunbridge for £2.30 and as long as I went out via Eastleigh and back via Redbridge I would be OK doing BOJ at Soton? Or that I could travel from Wakefield to Bradford on a via Brighouse working by buying a ticket to Leeds and stopping short? The possibilities of this seem extensive.
 
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John @ home

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Presumably on this basis I could travel from Edinburgh to Haymarket via the Fife Circle on an Edinburgh > Haymarket single on the grounds that it is a through train (and stated thus in NRE)?
Not normally. If the Fife Circle train took its normal route then Haymarket would be reached a few minutes after leaving Edinburgh. When we last discussed this, the consensus was that once the destination printed on the ticket is reached the ticket cannot be used for further travel. It is no accident that the proposition here is for Overpool to Ellesmere Port, not Ellesmere Port to Overpool. What we are debating in this thread is the equivalent of whether you could travel from Haymarket to Edinburgh via the Fife Circle on an Haymarket - Edinburgh single.

The unusual circumstances which could allow Edinburgh to Haymarket via the Fife Circle are a diversion via Portobello avoiding Haymarket after leaving Edinburgh. I think there are two daily trains which are timed to do this for route knowledge purposes, but neither is a Fife Circle train in the current timetable.
 

4SRKT

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Not normally. If the Fife Circle train took its normal route then Haymarket would be reached a few minutes after leaving Edinburgh. When we last discussed this, the consensus was that once the destination printed on the ticket is reached the ticket cannot be used for further travel. It is no accident that the proposition here is for Overpool to Ellesmere Port, not Ellesmere Port to Overpool. What we are debating in this thread is the equivalent of whether you could travel from Haymarket to Edinburgh via the Fife Circle on an Haymarket - Edinburgh single.

The unusual circumstances which could allow Edinburgh to Haymarket via the Fife Circle are a diversion via Portobello avoiding Haymarket after leaving Edinburgh. I think there are two daily trains which are timed to do this for route knowledge purposes, but neither is a Fife Circle train in the current timetable.

Sorry, I meant Haymarket to Edinburgh :oops:
 

12CSVT

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Not normally. If the Fife Circle train took its normal route then Haymarket would be reached a few minutes after leaving Edinburgh. When we last discussed this, the consensus was that once the destination printed on the ticket is reached the ticket cannot be used for further travel. It is no accident that the proposition here is for Overpool to Ellesmere Port, not Ellesmere Port to Overpool. What we are debating in this thread is the equivalent of whether you could travel from Haymarket to Edinburgh via the Fife Circle on an Haymarket - Edinburgh single.

The unusual circumstances which could allow Edinburgh to Haymarket via the Fife Circle are a diversion via Portobello avoiding Haymarket after leaving Edinburgh. I think there are two daily trains which are timed to do this for route knowledge purposes, but neither is a Fife Circle train in the current timetable.

Would Edinburgh - Rosyth or Edinburgh - Dalgety Bay (or for that matter Rosyth - Dalgety Bay) be valid via Glenrothes ?
 

4SRKT

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All the cheapskate skip bashers in the country are being slowly drawn to this thread........
 

John @ home

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Would Edinburgh - Rosyth or Edinburgh - Dalgety Bay (or for that matter Rosyth - Dalgety Bay) be valid via Glenrothes ?
There are a series of Negative Easements (numbers 600006 - 600062) in the National Routeing Guide (NRG) which would imply that the train companies' intention is or was that they should not be valid. But most services are provided by through trains and the first page of the NRG Instructions makes it clear that the route of a through train is always a Permitted Route and that a passenger need only consult the Guide when travelling neither by a through train nor by the shortest route.

This has led to a consensus here that these journeys are Permitted by through train only. In particular, rail staff have reported that this rule is well known by ticket examiners in Fife.
 
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MichaelAMW

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Easements can't apply to direct trains (the NRCoC defines a direct train as one that stops at the origin and destination printed on the ticket) and provided a break of journey is allowed by the ticket conditions I see no problem with breaking your journey at any point along the route of a direct train provided you use the direct train(s).

However, I would be very careful of travelling on trains which stop at the destination station (or origin station) twice, as passing through it could be seen as going over-distance (or possibly off route) and could leave you paying for an excess, a new fare or a Penalty Fare.

I find it slightly odd that you are generally, with good professional knowledge to support you, somewhat ruthless with your interpretation of the rules; but when it comes to this particular point about through trains you have a surprisingly different attitude. That is an observation, not an attempt to be impolite or provocative.

I appreciate that some of the discussion is about trying to stretch the interpretation of the language used as far as possible - in a sense, that is part of the fun we have on this forum! However, just being sensible and reasonable rather than semantic, I find it hard to believe that the rule about direct trains can mean anything other than indicating an any-permitted ticket from A to B can be used throughout from A to B, without getting off intermediately, on a single train that goes directly from A to B.

Sure, you can use the words to make your assertion but I do not believe that it was ever the intention of the rule to allow multiple breaks of journey on trains that just happened to be going from A to B. I can't see how you think otherwise given your usual approach - nothing wrong with your usual approach - and (getting to my point) I therefore strongly feel it is not at all responsible for this forum to be suggesting it's OK.

A keen RPI could easily decide to go straight for intent to avoid payment if someone tried to use an Overpool to Ellesmere Port ticket to travel from Overpool to Liverpool. I guess I am saying that I agree with Yorkie and First Class, and that the more straightforward interpretation is the one we should be giving.
 

Intermodal

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I wonder how long I can make my location on this f
I am concerned as to the validity of this. If NRE's timetable assert that it is in fact a direct train and does not start/terminate at Liverpool Central, then I would say the ticket is valid, but I would not be too keen on using it as I believe it is extremely likely that you would be penalty fared for using it on the Merseyrail network.

That said, I am going to try this next week.
 

First class

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I am concerned as to the validity of this. If NRE's timetable assert that it is in fact a direct train and does not start/terminate at Liverpool Central, then I would say the ticket is valid, but I would not be too keen on using it as I believe it is extremely likely that you would be penalty fared for using it on the Merseyrail network.

That said, I am going to try this next week.

If you do get stopped, let me know via PM ASAP.

The guards aren't trained in revenue matters so don't worry too much about them, and the station staff can't do much except ask you to buy a ticket. An RPI will probably PF you, (Merseyrail don't do UPFN), in which case pay the single fare requested and let me know the details.

This won't work in the ATGs on the Underground.
 

tony_mac

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I would be expecting a Penalty Fare; but anyway
the NRCoC does say
(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:
(i) a through train;
..
(f) For the purposes of this Condition, a “through train” is one which may be
used by a passenger to make their entire journey without changing trains.
Which doesn't mention a timetable.

I'm not sure that a journey planner and a timetable are necessarily the same thing, but if you look up the journey on NRE, then you can click on the 'Pocket Timetable' link at the bottom and print that out.
(The general link to pocket timetables does not work).
 

yorkie

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Would Edinburgh - Rosyth or Edinburgh - Dalgety Bay (or for that matter Rosyth - Dalgety Bay) be valid via Glenrothes ?
Yes, providing you remain on a through train it's valid, and is what I was referring to earlier (but you posted in much more detail!)
The same situation occurs on Scotrail services via Glenrothes and a guard here confirmed the above applies.
For completeness, here is the view of the guard I was referring to:

I'm a guard and regularly work this train. As it is a peak service you will require a ANYTIME ticket if you board at Edinburgh or Haymarket but NOT at any other station en-route. e.g. South Gyle.

To simplify the rules re the circular service. Tickets are valid via both routes however you cannot break your journey at a station where a higher fare applies. Simples.

I always suggest getting your ticket to Dalgety Bay if the first stop after Inverkeithing for your train is Rosyth or vice versa if you intend to to the "Full Circle". In practice it does not really matter.

If you have got time alighting at a few stations is worthwhile. My favourites include Dunfermline Lower & Aberdour. One day I'll finish the "Fife Circle Pub Crawl" - a pint 'n' nip at a pub near every station!!

It is my view that a direct train must be valid, and cannot be affected by a (negative) easement.

I have to concede that if you alight from a direct train and exit the station, a defence of "But I am on a direct train", seems absurd.

So, I agree with reb0118, and hairyhandedfool.

Clearly ATOC are likely to issue some clarification on this matter, but my hope is that they concentrate on barring people finishing short on such tickets (there is revenue risk there) and do not penalise people who genuinely remain on board the train via the long way round.
 
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