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Todmorden Curve

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150222

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I'd use a through Preston service (I live in Toddy). Maybe if the YRK/BPN was diverted fast via Dewsbury then the time penalty could be absorbed? Of course a new platform would be needed and there is insuffitient room in the current layout.
 
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MidnightFlyer

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I think Bradford is quite a big market ex-East Lancs, especially bearing in mind the large Asian populations of both areas, it certainly fills up well there both ways at present (with all backgrounds and races, I should add!). Further, are there any paths via Dewsbury, including post-electrification?

I remember when BDI was closed for remodelling a couple of years back, it was one of the rare occassions where the diversion (via Dewsbury) provided a faster route :lol:

Seriously though, I suspect the Preston / E Lancs Cotton Towns-Bradford flow is much larger than that to Todmorden, sorry.
 

Lampshade

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I agree with maintaining the link to Bradford, whenever I've been through or to BDI on that service a lot of people boarded/alighted there. Plus it's quicker to change stations in Bradford for the Wharfedale/Airedale lines than to go all the way to Leeds first.
 

natureboy

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Single line is better than nothing. It would probably only need 4tph to use it - 2tph each way I would guess. Manchester - Tod might become quite high frequency!

They could run as circular services (up round Bolton and Blackburn then down again) to avoid clogging Victoria. Clitheroe services could be additional, and maybe run semi-fast (with a view to extending to Hellifield).

You've hit the nail on the head! This is just what I think should happen!
An hourly circular service would be good; half hourly, even better; then make Clitheroe - Man Vic limited stop south of Blackburn. 2tph would also be a good idea for Clitheroe with trains going alternately to Blackpool North and Man Vic. Going beyond that; extending the Clitheroe - Man Vic service to Hellifield (and Skipton reversing at Hellifield) would be fantastic!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think Bradford is quite a big market ex-East Lancs, especially bearing in mind the large Asian populations of both areas, it certainly fills up well there both ways at present (with all backgrounds and races, I should add!). Further, are there any paths via Dewsbury, including post-electrification?

I remember when BDI was closed for remodelling a couple of years back, it was one of the rare occassions where the diversion (via Dewsbury) provided a faster route :lol:

Seriously though, I suspect the Preston / E Lancs Cotton Towns-Bradford flow is much larger than that to Todmorden, sorry.

It's interesting to be diverted via a faster route isn't it. Take Cheltenham Spa to Newport; booked route, Gloucester avoider, Bristol Parkway, Bristol Temple Meads (reverse) Severn Tunnel to Newport. What happened on the day? Turned right into Gloucester (where an additional stop was made), then via Chepstow direct to Newport, over half an hour early!
 

PR1Berske

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I think Bradford is quite a big market ex-East Lancs, especially bearing in mind the large Asian populations of both areas, it certainly fills up well there both ways at present (with all backgrounds and races, I should add!). Further, are there any paths via Dewsbury, including post-electrification?

I remember when BDI was closed for remodelling a couple of years back, it was one of the rare occassions where the diversion (via Dewsbury) provided a faster route :lol:

Seriously though, I suspect the Preston / E Lancs Cotton Towns-Bradford flow is much larger than that to Todmorden, sorry.

I tend to agree. It will be interesting to see how, in the long term, things are divided up here

I can see, realistically, Blackpool/Preston to Blackburn, and Bradford/Leeds, becoming the "norm", with Colne being slashed right back (twice hourly?), or just becoming shuttle runs from Blackburn. There is the E Lancs/Cotton run as you describe though how many passengers realistically get on at Preston for Burnley on a regular basis, never mind Nelson or Colne?
 

MidnightFlyer

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I'm not sure, but I can't see the service being cut (as in number of trains) - like a few other services nationwide it tends to be flows combined - Blackpool-Preston-Blackburn-Pendle here. I can't imagine a cut in service would be popular or justifiable.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I'm not sure, but I can't see the service being cut (as in number of trains) - like a few other services nationwide it tends to be flows combined - Blackpool-Preston-Blackburn-Pendle here. I can't imagine a cut in service would be popular or justifiable.

Is there any foreseeable return to a Manchester Victoria - Preston - Blackpool South service which could cause a part-reduction of the Blackpool South - East Lancashire service ?
 

MidnightFlyer

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Is there any foreseeable return to a Manchester Victoria - Preston - Blackpool South service which could cause a part-reduction of the Blackpool South - East Lancashire service ?

The only way I could envisage that happening, pre- or post-Northern Hub is if the existing Manchester Victoria-Blackpool North and Colne-Blackpool South services basically swap destination, however I'm not sure how possible that would be.
 

Waverley125

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I'd imagine post-curve you'd remove all stops west of Rochdale from the Victoria-Leeds trains, and instead run a Victoria-Blackburn via Burnley service to absorb those stops.

This would also allow faster running from towns in Caldervale into Manchester, running say New Pudsey, Bradford, Halifax, Sowerby Bridge, Mytholmroyd, Hebden Bridge, Todmorden, Rochdale.
 

PR1Berske

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I'd imagine post-curve you'd remove all stops west of Rochdale from the Victoria-Leeds trains, and instead run a Victoria-Blackburn via Burnley service to absorb those stops.

This would also allow faster running from towns in Caldervale into Manchester, running say New Pudsey, Bradford, Halifax, Sowerby Bridge, Mytholmroyd, Hebden Bridge, Todmorden, Rochdale.

This is "back of the envelope" stuff but if I understand what you've said correctly, I could attach that with the discussion only a few places up and contrive for some point in the future:

# Blackpool N/S -> Preston -> Blackburn/Clitheroe
# Victoria -> curve -> Blackburn
# Blackburn -> Colne
 

cle

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I tihnk a Rochdale shuttle stopping at all stations could mop up the local stops, maybe going to the Airport as a stopper/semi as a sort of Crossrail!

The Leeds services already have too many stops as it is. One an hour could certainly run - Victoria - Rochdale - Halifax - Bradford / Leeds or even without Rochdale.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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The Leeds services already have too many stops as it is. One an hour could certainly run - Victoria - Rochdale - Halifax - Bradford / Leeds or even without Rochdale.

Operationally speaking, I can see your point, but you do have to consider the role that the railway has to play in providing a faster mode of transport between communities rather than that of buses, which themselves then provide a bus stop to bus stop service.

I will quote certain journey flows:-
Littleborough to Todmorden
Todmorden to Mytholmroyd
Hebden Bridge to Halifax
All these journey flows are far quicker for commuters by rail than by bus.

You cannot just disregard the value of rail travel to communities. If a partial reduction of stopping services is brought into effect, it will reduce the patronage of rail services, which then will lead to a reduction by a TOC of such services on cost/viability basis.

Look at North-West Wales where it was said that buses could replace the proposed rail services that were scheduled for closure. After a short period of time, the bus service provision suddenly plummeted. How do you think the communities involved viewed that rail reduction/closure then ?
 

cle

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Well I wouldn't want to reduce trains between those places, just that I think faster trains could run on the line also.

For quite a low key line, it serves some quite big places, as well as smaller places like Tod and Hebden, which have quite high rail use for their size.
 

Waverley125

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It depends how you organise the running of the C'vale

personally I see no route value in running the Victoria stoppers through to Leeds, but know it's so Halifax & the Caldervale towns can have a service to Leeds.

However, if you want 4tph for those towns through, you can streamline a bit

i.e. 2tph Leeds-Victoria: New Pudsey, Bradford, Halifax, Sowerby Bridge, Mytholmroyd, Hebden Bridge, Todmorden, Walsden, Littleborough, Smithy Bridge, Rochdale, Victoria

1tph Leeds-Victoria: New Pudsey, Bradford, Halifax, Sowerby Bridge, Todmorden, Rochdale, Victoria

1tph Leeds-Preston: New Pudsey, Bradford, Halifax, Hebden Bridge, Burnley.....

if you assume a half-hourly Victoria-Burnley-Blackburn service this gives Todmorden & Rochdale 5tph to Manchester & stations to the west of Todmorden 4tph. Rochdale also recieves 3tph non-stop to Victoria, which is better than currently.

There is atm a complete lack of long-term planning for the Caldervale, and that needs to be turned around, given its huge potential for commuting into both Leeds & Manchester.

Personally I think the solution is tied up in the Bradford Crossrail project, which needs to also include the bowling curve. Once you do that, you can serve Leeds & Bradford separately, and you can start building a 'metro' frequency on the line.

Something like

Bradford Interchange-Forster Square link
New stations at Low Moor, Bradford Wakefield Road, Hipperholme, Northowram, Luddendenfoot, Elland
Halifax platform 1 reopened.
Leeds-Victoria, Mirfield/Deighton-Halifax/Sowerby Bridge & 'Blackburn Circle' electrified.
 

MidnightFlyer

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1tph Leeds-Preston: New Pudsey, Bradford, Halifax, Hebden Bridge, Burnley.....

...

Halifax platform 1 reopened.

I trust Accrington and Blackburn too?!

AFAIK Halifax's old platform one has been sold to the nearby Eureka! centre. I'm not sure how much it would cost to get back, last time I was there the whole platform had been engulfed into the building...
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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It depends how you organise the running of the C'vale....However, if you want 4tph for those towns through, you can streamline a bit

i.e. 2tph Leeds-Victoria: New Pudsey, Bradford, Halifax, Sowerby Bridge, Mytholmroyd, Hebden Bridge, Todmorden, Walsden, Littleborough, Smithy Bridge, Rochdale, Victoria

1tph Leeds-Victoria: New Pudsey, Bradford, Halifax, Sowerby Bridge, Todmorden, Rochdale, Victoria

1tph Leeds-Preston: New Pudsey, Bradford, Halifax, Hebden Bridge, Burnley.....

if you assume a half-hourly Victoria-Burnley-Blackburn service this gives Todmorden & Rochdale 5tph to Manchester & stations to the west of Todmorden 4tph. Rochdale also recieves 3tph non-stop to Victoria, which is better than currently

What do you then propose should happen to those commuters from Castleton, Mills Hill and Moston ?

This line has already lost Miles Platting, Newton Heath and Middleton Junction stations between Manchester and Rochdale as a result of the "rationalisation" of the period in the 1960's and in events since then.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I trust Accrington and Blackburn too?!

I certainly share your concern at Burnley being named, but these two stations (especially Blackburn) being ignored in the stated proposal.
 

Deerfold

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It depends how you organise the running of the C'vale

personally I see no route value in running the Victoria stoppers through to Leeds, but know it's so Halifax & the Caldervale towns can have a service to Leeds.

However, if you want 4tph for those towns through, you can streamline a bit

i.e. 2tph Leeds-Victoria: New Pudsey, Bradford, Halifax, Sowerby Bridge, Mytholmroyd, Hebden Bridge, Todmorden, Walsden, Littleborough, Smithy Bridge, Rochdale, Victoria

1tph Leeds-Victoria: New Pudsey, Bradford, Halifax, Sowerby Bridge, Todmorden, Rochdale, Victoria

1tph Leeds-Preston: New Pudsey, Bradford, Halifax, Hebden Bridge, Burnley.....

if you assume a half-hourly Victoria-Burnley-Blackburn service this gives Todmorden & Rochdale 5tph to Manchester & stations to the west of Todmorden 4tph. Rochdale also recieves 3tph non-stop to Victoria, which is better than currently.

Sounds wonderful - I'd like 3 tph Bradford-Sowerby Bridge (most annoying going down from 2tph for years to 1).

Can't see Metro liking it - they're keen on the fast train to keep Bradford - Manchester under an hour (but only one train an hour). Bramley looks a bit underserved.

Going to need quite a few extra trains for this too.

Leeds - Bradford is a very busy flow and most pax seem to like going on the 4tph to the Interchange rather than the more pleasant trains to Forster Square. Much as I'd love to be able to do Keighley - Sowerby Bridge direct I suspect that'd annoy a lot of people if it impacts Leeds - Sowerby Bridge.
 
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Waverley125

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What do you then propose should happen to those commuters from Castleton, Mills Hill and Moston ?

This line has already lost Miles Platting, Newton Heath and Middleton Junction stations between Manchester and Rochdale as a result of the "rationalisation" of the period in the 1960's and in events since then.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I certainly share your concern at Burnley being named, but these two stations (especially Blackburn) being ignored in the stated proposal.

I thought the .... showed further stations well enough, but yes, I wouldn't plan on missing out Accrington or Blackburn on that service.

As for Castleton, Mills Hill & Moston-I'd put them onto the 'Blackburn Circle' trains as mentioned before i.e. Victoria-Blackburn via Bolton, which I'd expect to have a half-hourly service at the very least.

Further to this, I'd support running a 'Manchester Crossrail' or Rochdale-Victoria-Wigan stopper calling Castleton, Stake Hill, Mills Hill, Moston, Newton Heath, Miles Platting, Victoria, Salford Central, Salford Crescent, Swinton, Moorside, Walkden, Atherton, Hag Fold, Daisy Hill, Hindley, Ince, Wigan Wallgate

leaving them with 4tph into Manchester and 4tph to Rochdale

I'd also rejig services from Leeds so they turned back at Todmorden, allowing the running of a half-hourly semi-fast to Manchester from Bradford, calling Halifax, Sowerby Bridge, Mytholmroyd, Hebden Bridge, Todmorden, Rochdale, Victoria

This would end up giving

Rochdale: 6tph Victoria, 2 fast, no trains to Leeds (change at Halifax)
Todmorden: 4tph Leeds, 4tph Victoria
Walsden, Littleborough & Smithy Bridge: 2tph Victoria, no trains to Leeds (change at Todmorden)
Halifax: 2tph Victoria, 5tph Leeds (1 fast), 5tph Bradford
Sowerbry Bridge, Mytholmroyd: 2tph Victoria, 4tph Leeds, 2tph Bradford
Hebden Bridge: 2tph Victoria, 1tph Preston, 5tph Leeds (1 fast), 3tph Bradford

* this is my preferred option, but includes serious route upgrades and several pieces of new/reinstated infrastructure.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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As for Castleton, Mills Hill & Moston-I'd put them onto the 'Blackburn Circle' trains as mentioned before i.e. Victoria-Blackburn via Bolton, which I'd expect

Thank you for your detailed clarification, but my worry really concerns the fact that the three stations above all have direct services at peak periods on the Caldervale Line for people commuting to and from the West Yorkshire stations from Hebden Bridge onwards on the Caldervale line, whereas your contention would mean that they would have to change trains either at Rochdale or at Todmorden, instead of enjoying their currently direct service, which is the last thing that you want to do whilst commuting to and from work.

You make reference to a circular Manchester Victoria-Bolton-Blackburn-Todmorden -Rochdale-Manchester Victoria route and whilst a Government statement was made with regard to upgrading the line from Bolton to Blackburn in certain sections, this is still far removed from a full double track section throughout that route, as single line will still be the status quo in certain sections after these works have been carried out. What information do you possess which pre-supposes that such a circular service is in the stage of future planning requirements ?
 

Waverley125

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I don't presuppose that it's going to happen, just that it would be the best strategy for development of the route in my opinion.

As for Castleton, Mills Hill & Moston, I don't know what their commuting profile is into West Yorkshire, but I don't imagine it's that great, particularly given that you don't hit anywhere really big till Halifax and Bradford, and Leeds is more easily reached from Piccadilly.

4tph into Victoria is a big improvement on the current level of service, and regular (under my plan) EMUs would provide a decent enough service. They'd also get connections to the west of Manchester, and at Rochdale, to services for West Yorkshire as far as Bradford.
 

tbtc

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IIRC a few years ago the service through Rochdale in a typical hour was:

  • Manchester Victoria - Rochdale - All Stops - Leeds - York
  • Manchester Victoria - Moston - Mills Hill - Castleton - Rochdale - Oldham (and back to Manchester)
  • Manchester Victoria - Rochdale - All Stops - Leeds - Selby
  • Manchester Victoria - Moston - Mills Hill - Castleton - Rochdale - Oldham (and back to Manchester)

I could be wrong - this was before the Oldham Loop was closed for conversion to Metrolink and before the Caldervale rejig that saw a new Manchester - Rochdale - Brighouse - Leeds service (which allowed one of the other Leeds services to be speeded up and saw the introduction of the Grand Tour).

So it sounds reasonable to have the Leeds services running fast between Manchester and Rochdale with the stops at Moston etc taken by services to Burnley/ Accrington/ Blackburn. Without getting into semantics about stopping patterns, I think that Waverley125 has the right idea here.

The potential for a half hourly service from Manchester to Burnley (via Rochdale) does weaken the impetus for any SELRAP improvements, since Burnley - Manchester is probably the one big unserved market that they could make a case to improve.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I'd support running a 'Manchester Crossrail' or Rochdale-Victoria-Wigan stopper calling Castleton, Stake Hill, Mills Hill, Moston, Newton Heath, Miles Platting, Victoria, Salford Central, Salford Crescent, Swinton, Moorside, Walkden, Atherton, Hag Fold, Daisy Hill, Hindley, Ince, Wigan Wallgate

Are there not plans for a similar service to this to have Stalybridge as its terminal station, in lieu of the Liverpool area service that currently uses Ashton under Lyne and Stalybridge ?

I am intrigued by your Stake Hill station proposal, which would serve a now greatly expanded industrial estate, but its proximity to Mills Hill station could raise a question of the viability of Mills Hill station.

Newton Heath station re-opening would bring back a heavy rail station to the area that was once served by Dean Lane on the Oldham Loop Line on the other side of Newton Heath TMD and would serve the large private housing development (The Fairway) that was constructed on the former Failsworth Golf Course. I am old enough to have used the Middleton to Manchester service in the late 1950's until the demise of Middleton station in 1964, when the service covered:-
Middleton
Middleton Junction
Moston
Newton Heath
Miles Platting
Manchester Victoria.
 

bluenoxid

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Stakehill Industrial Estate - wouldn't be my first choice for a station. A lot of units up for lease there and its dead. If they flattened parts of it and put a car park in, well, it's possible that it might make it. The only problem is that the M62 traffic can back up past J20 on the M62 and on really bad days the A627(M) is not nice. However, I like the thinking and it is possible that it could be a little park and ride gem if served appropriately.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Stakehill Industrial Estate - wouldn't be my first choice for a station. A lot of units up for lease there and its dead. If they flattened parts of it and put a car park in, well, it's possible that it might make it. The only problem is that the M62 traffic can back up past J20 on the M62 and on really bad days the A627(M) is not nice. However, I like the thinking and it is possible that it could be a little park and ride gem if served appropriately.

Outside the area of the Stakehill Industrial Estate is the area of Slattocks with only a very small number of possible commuters to use a railway station in that area. Your comment about a park and ride station would be somewhat at odds with the fact that there is a link road from that estate to the A627M, which many of the workers on that estate use to travel to and from work.

Castleton station covers a very much larger and wider catchment area of possible commuting journeys.
 

Waverley125

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I'd presumed Stake Hill as a Park & Ride site from northeast Manchester yes, not as a station to serve a residential area.

As for the current proposal to go through to Stalybridge, yeah there is. I think Manchester is a prime candidate for a crossrail-type system.

In the west destination would be Wigan Wallgate (both via Atherton & via Bolton) in the east, Rochdale & Stalybridge via Ashton under Lyme

I'd also hope to run Preston-Stockport via Denton and Picadilly-Airport via Ardwick, Eastlands, Miles Platting, Victoria, Oxford Road & Piccadilly

Picadilly would continue to handle the electric stoppers in south Manchester (Buxton, Crewe, Stoke, Glossop, Hadfield) and trains beyond the northern boundaries would run 'fast' in the area covered by the stoppers, then fast.

i.e. Manchester Victoria-Southport calling Wigan Wallgate & all stops, Victoria-Blackpool calling Bolton, Lostock & all stops

Piccadilly-Huddersfield calling Guide Bridge, Stalybridge & all stations to Huddersfield.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I'd also hope to run Preston-Stockport via Denton and Picadilly-Airport via Ardwick, Eastlands, Miles Platting, Victoria, Oxford Road & Piccadilly.

I can see your logic with Preston - Stockport, via Denton.

What I find hard to understand is:-
Piccadilly - Airport via Ardwick, Eastlands, Miles Platting, Victoria, Oxford Road and Piccadilly. It does seem to be a rather long route compared with the existing Piccadilly - Airport route via the Styal line.

When the Ordsall Chord is completed, an Airport - Piccadilly - Oxford Road - Victoria service will be part of the North Transpennine route.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Piccadilly-Huddersfield calling Guide Bridge, Stalybridge & all stations to Huddersfield.

I understand that the plans in the pipeline for the Huddersfield service rule out the existing all-stations service. This has been discussed on at least a couple of threads in the last few months.
 

PR1Berske

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Airport-Pic-Oxford Road-Victoria would be a great little service - couldn't TPE (or whomever it might be) split a service at Pic or OR to run off somewhere else (be it Lancashire via Bolton, or Wigan, or Liverpool) ? Market it as a "Leave the Airport for connections via Victoria for Calderdale/Yorkshire, stay on the train from here to get to Blackpool" ?
 

Waverley125

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The Piccadilly-Victoria-Piccadilly-Airport service I saw as the most logical running of what I'd term the 'Manchester circle', which would involve opening up Ardwick-Miles Platting as well as the Ordsal Chord. This would allow you to run right round Manchester CC, as well as connecting in the Airport & all key locations, while reducing the number of conflicting movements. FWIW I'd consider extending these to Wilmslow (reversing at Airport), and keeping through services from elsewhere to the west. With the layout at Piccadilly, making 13 & 14 'Airport only' platforms would seem to make sense, so potentially Liverpool LS-Manchester Airport stoppers?

So for instance, a train leaves P1 at Piccadilly, stays on the northernmost approach lines, and branches off at Ardwick. Would then cross the Victoria bays, before staying on the lines closest to the CC as it rounded the Ordsall Chord, again, nearest to CC at Oxford Road, before arriving back at Piccadilly on the far side from where it started, and the right side to get out to the Airport without crossing the station throat.

The alternative would be to run trains currently terminating at Victoria round the 'Eastlands Chord' into Piccadilly, i.e. the Southport and Blackpool stoppers, which could also be good.

as for the Huddersfield services, serious upgrades are needed on this line, and my personal preference is to reinstate 4 lines from Dewsbury-Diggle and west of Guide Bridge, which would allow overtaking and reduce conflicting movements. I think the Piccadilly stoppers would work if you ran them also as a 'semi fast' to Stalybridge, replacing the current TPE service into Piccadilly. So first stop Guide Bridge, second stop Stalybridge, then all stations. Saves on units, reduces congestion on Stalybridge-Victoria (very busy under Northern Hub plans with TPE services added), all round win.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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The Piccadilly-Victoria-Piccadilly-Airport service I saw as the most logical running of what I'd term the 'Manchester circle', which would involve opening up Ardwick-Miles Platting as well as the Ordeall Chord.

So for instance, a train leaves P1 at Piccadilly, stays on the northernmost approach lines, and branches off at Ardwick. Would then cross the Victoria bays, before staying on the lines closest to the CC as it rounded the Ordsall Chord, again, nearest to CC at Oxford Road, before arriving back at Piccadilly on the far side from where it started, and the right side to get out to the Airport without crossing the station throat.

I have consulted all my historical maps of that area of Manchester and at present, the only way to make a Manchester Piccadilly (from your stated use of platform 1) - Ardwick -Miles Platting journey, is to carry on past Ardwick towards Ashburys on the lines at the rear of station, then to reverse to access the line which passes through both the Phillips Park junctions into Miles Platting.

Perhaps you would be so kind as to state the route that you had in mind to enable your service to run in the section from Ardwick to Miles Platting, noting that the Siemens Transpennine Express now occupies much of the former land in that area and is projected to be converted to allow the future electric units to be serviced.

When you make a journey from Manchester Piccadilly to Ardwick at the present time, just before you arrive at Ardwick Station, you will see on the left hand side of the line, the viaduct that in the dim and distant realms of railway history used to provide a through-running route to the area near to Miles Platting. However, the bridge over Blind Lane and Pittbrook Street was removed many years ago and the viaduct remainder has the appearance of a gently curving elevated urban forest. I would be interested if someone could tell this forum when Network Rail or their predecessors last made a structural assessment with regard to the present stage of degradations that has occurred. I think that the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway were involved in the construction of the viaduct.
 
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