[yorksrob]

Originally Posted by ChiefPlanner

Some serious questions here ...especially with the long term decline of the passenger traffic and the relative sparseness of the population.

Ask yourself , would you build this railway now ....?

The number of times I've pointed out how well used a potential re-opening would probably have been had it not been closed in the first place - only to be told that just because an existing railway might have done well, that doesn't justify the expense of re-opening.

I guess by a similar token, just because we might not necessarily have gone to the expense of building a particular railway today, that's no excuse not to continue operating an existing one.

[ainsworth74]

Originally Posted by ChiefPlanner

Ask yourself , would you build this railway now ....?

That depends. What other lines are already open? Are there other more important areas that need a line? What sort of budget do we have for building new lines? What are the road links like to this area? Is the area going to be significantly disadvantaged if it does not have a rail link? Would be the first I'd ask. I can't give a simple yes/no answer to that question without considering the wider context.

[tbtc]

Originally Posted by ChiefPlanner

Some serious questions here ...especially with the long term decline of the passenger traffic and the relative sparseness of the population.

Ask yourself , would you build this railway now ....?

At the moment there are around 50,000 people using Stranraer station each year (plus five thousand at Barrhill, the only station in the forty-something miles between Stranraer and Girvan). So roughly enough people to fit into one Pacer a day?

If the line had been closed fifty years ago (south of Girvan) then I'd bet that there'd be a campaign to reopen it which claimed the line would have 100.000 passengers a year. However the reality is that the passenger numbers aren't that great.

[ainsworth74]

Originally Posted by tbtc

If the line had been closed fifty years ago (south of Girvan) then I'd bet that there'd be a campaign to reopen it which claimed the line would have 100.000 passengers a year. However the reality is that the passenger numbers aren't that great.

Then again the timetable isn't really designed to suit the people of Stranraer is it? If it the timetable was actually re-cast with the needs of the people and perhaps with a slightly increased frequency you could achieve somewhere in the region of 100,000 passengers per year.

[tbtc]

Originally Posted by ainsworth74

Then again the timetable isn't really designed to suit the people of Stranraer is it? If it the timetable was actually re-cast with the needs of the people and perhaps with a slightly increased frequency you could achieve somewhere in the region of 100,000 passengers per year.

True - and I've suggested a clockface shuttle a few times on here.

All you need are three 153s. Two to provide a bi-hourly service from Kilmarnock to Stranraer and one to provide a bi-hourly Kilmarnock - Girvan shuttle (dovetailing to provide an hourly service from Killie to Ayr and Girvan).

Kilmarnock to Ayr must be one of the worst frequencies between two decent sized places in Scotland (both around 45,000) that are just fifteen miles apart.

At the moment the 156s are wasted on the Stranraer route, but a more straightforward timetable (to suit locals, not historic ferry times) could see a big improvement).

[ainsworth74]

Can't disagree with anything in that post

[Indigo2]

To people who say that the station is an eyesore, I agree - but I think the bulk of the problem is the ugly corrugated metal canopy and walkway that obscure the station itself. The actual station building is IMHO quite an attractive old wooden-clad building (see picture below) and could be really quite an attractive historic centrepiece to a redeveloped harbour area, if the ugly later additions were tidied up.

[ashworth]

Originally Posted by ainsworth74

Then again the timetable isn't really designed to suit the people of Stranraer is it? If it the timetable was actually re-cast with the needs of the people and perhaps with a slightly increased frequency you could achieve somewhere in the region of 100,000 passengers per year.

I agree that the timetable needs to be recast to suit local people. I was on holiday in the area a few years ago and considered using the line for day trips. It wasn't just the inconvenient timings but also the high prices for fairly local journeys that made me decide to travel by car.

The Cheapest Day Return fares from Stranraer are currently as follows:
Barrhill - £13.60
Girvan - £14.60
Ayr - £18.10
Kilmarnock - £27.80
Glasgow - £29.60
Paisley - £37.80
Carlisle - £52.20

These are not really the sort of fares people are willing to pay for relatively local journeys that can easily be done by road.

How many people from the remote community at Barrhill for example is going to pay £13.60 return to go into Stranraer to do their weekly shopping at Tesco!

[harz99]

Originally Posted by tbtc

True - and I've suggested a clockface shuttle a few times on here.

All you need are three 153s. Two to provide a bi-hourly service from Kilmarnock to Stranraer and one to provide a bi-hourly Kilmarnock - Girvan shuttle (dovetailing to provide an hourly service from Killie to Ayr and Girvan).

Kilmarnock to Ayr must be one of the worst frequencies between two decent sized places in Scotland (both around 45,000) that are just fifteen miles apart.

At the moment the 156s are wasted on the Stranraer route, but a more straightforward timetable (to suit locals, not historic ferry times) could see a big improvement).

Trouble is that is one more unit than currently used to provide the existing service; also there are certain workings now which still run near full 156s, so a 153 would not suffice.

SAYLSA has already put forward various suggestions as to how to improve the service, but Transport Scotland and Scotrail are unable to/will not provide any addtional resources.

As Ashworth has highlighted the fares are also a major stumbling block. It has been suggested that something akin to the London Travelcard add ons could be made to the SPT Daytripper for pax from Stranraer but again no one is able/willing.

The one thing being done that may make a difference is the PTI; but that doesn't have to mean losing the old Harbour Station and trackwork. It is perfectly possible to slew the new station and trackwork away from the existing to enable that to remain connected, maybe rationalised slightly, and converted to groundframe operation for those infrequent occasions when loco hauled trains run to Stranraer. Yet again, no one on either side of the retain/demolish brigades appears to be able to accept that as a compromise for that particular problem.

[Wath Yard]

Originally Posted by ashworth

I agree that the timetable needs to be recast to suit local people. I was on holiday in the area a few years ago and considered using the line for day trips. It wasn't just the inconvenient timings but also the high prices for fairly local journeys that made me decide to travel by car.

The Cheapest Day Return fares from Stranraer are currently as follows:
Barrhill - £13.60
Girvan - £14.60
Ayr - £18.10
Kilmarnock - £27.80
Glasgow - £29.60
Paisley - £37.80
Carlisle - £52.20

These are not really the sort of fares people are willing to pay for relatively local journeys that can easily be done by road.

How many people from the remote community at Barrhill for example is going to pay £13.60 return to go into Stranraer to do their weekly shopping at Tesco!

Stranraer - Glasgow return is £26.90 for a journey of 200 miles. That is not a local journey and represents excellent value. It is also possible to get to Glasgow before 10:00 and leave at 22:30. A pretty full day out I would suggest.

There have been many excuses on this thread for why people couldn't possibly use the service. Well, why must the line be kept open then?

[johnnychips]

Originally Posted by Wath Yard

There have been many excuses on this thread for why people couldn't possibly use the service. Well, why must the line be kept open then?

It could be a struggle unless you could promote it as a tourist line a la Settle-Carlisle.

It's 40 miles about to Girvan; there don't seem to be any intervening opportunities for new stations (Barrhill seems to be the only settlement). The population of Stranraer is only about 11000. Are the fleshpots of Ayr, Glasgow and Kilmarnock that attractive for frequent travel?

Line speeds don't seem too bad but I don't know what the road is like or what bus competition there is. The return fare to Glasgow at £26-90 certainly is a bargain although you could get a day trip from Cairnryan to Belfast for £19 with an early start!

EDIT: There seem to be three coaches a day to Glasgow taking just over 2.5 hours; other convoluted routes are possible taking longer with changes. Not checked fares. This is about 10-20 minutes slower than direct trains or by changing at Ayr.

[Drimnagh Road]

The problem with the line needs to be looked beyond Stranraer itself. You also have, what, 4 i think manned signal boxes on the most lightly part used of the line. If the timetables are recast (say for example a shuttle Stran-Ayr) is there scope for closing one or two boxes? While i don't generally agree with taking out block sections freight is not an issue south of Girvan so it shouldn't result in loss of too many paths

[Bruce Warren]

Timetabling seems to be difficult to sort out, although I understand Transport
Scotland have said they are keeping an eye on it. What that means in practice I have no idea.

Last year Scotrail wanted to move the early Stranraer - Glasgow train
back an hour to arrive before 9 and allow commuting for the first time.

Unfortunately this would have made it awkward for the hundred or so students
going to Ayr college on that train and after some vociferous local opposition the
idea was withdrawn.

Had there been enough money for two trains, then I imagine it would have been possible
to satisfy both groups.

I'm assuming the reasoning behind the commuter service is that 1 regular
traveller is worth 300 tourists, especially now the ships have gone.

There is a local perception that Stranraer fares are unfairly high compared to
those from other stations on the line. The local MP has been making noises
about this but so far nothing has happened yet. It seems to be because
Stranraer is outside the SPT area and thus does not qualify for fare subsidy,
and D&G Council have no money to subsidise their end.

[Paul Sidorczuk]

Have any of the Scottish political parties in a certain establishment made their views known on this matter ?

[bkhtele]

I agree with a lot that has been said this is a lovely route and traffic should be encouraged.
1. The time table say every 2 hours with a regular pattern best for locals & ferry passengers
2. Current prices do not make sense. There must be some way to take the super Strathclyde day rider ticket which is valid to Barhill and sell an add on say £5 way some agreement to share sales. This is a political problem stopping people using the train from Barrhill to Stranraer.
3. Contine to allow the rail sail tickets to be valid to Stranraer, give people the choice ride on a bus on a dangerously narrow road from Ayr or pay fo a local bus to do the last 7 miles to Cairnryan
4. Do some deal with p&o and make rail sail tickets valid on their ferries (aka the Dover - France ticket) increasing choice and giving better options less wait for the ferry
5. With a bit of creative thinking: step off the train at Stranraer, use one or two of Boris' big bendy buses to drive straight on to the ferry (security & check in could be done at Stranraer) Most people could be encouraged to get a boarding pass off the internet in advance like Easyjet. Good customer experience v now!
6. There is still demand for ferry traffic to Ireland, e.g. Both buses Glasgow to Cairnryan for the 11.30 & 15.30 ferries this Friday are already full.
7. The railway is much better at handling peak traffic at Xmas of holiday period than buses