Driver Only Operation (DOO) - When will it arrive?

wigwamman · 20th July 2012, 20:16

hi everyone
its my first post on here so hello,just a question on how easy or costly do you think it would be to install doo on different networks,would it be for instance easy on merseyrail and difficult on say arriva wales,i have a vested intrest as im a conductor but without getting into all the polotics of the matter how long in your opinions does the grade have left.
would new stock be needed,station upgrades be done etc.

krisk · 20th July 2012, 20:24

Won't happen. People like to see staff on trains. What happens when things go wrong?

There's a possibility on short distance regional routes but not after that.

Monty · 20th July 2012, 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by wigwamman

hi everyone
its my first post on here so hello,just a question on how easy or costly do you think it would be to install doo on different networks,would it be for instance easy on merseyrail and difficult on say arriva wales,i have a vested intrest as im a conductor but without getting into all the polotics of the matter how long in your opinions does the grade have left.
would new stock be needed,station upgrades be done etc.

Depends on the attitudes of the companies involved, at SWT I'm quite fortunate that Brian Souter likes having guards on his trains. I can see guards on the South Western for some time to come, so long as we don't do anything stupid and Stagecoach get a new franchise in five years time.

Can't speak for other TOCs, but some seem to love it others hate it.

HLE 13 · 20th July 2012, 20:31

To be honest, I think DOO would be preferred by some but any move to introduce any more would result in strong action against it by the RMT.

I'm not a fan of DOO as I feel that the DOO routes should be converted to the SPT model and have a driver responsible for the train and a ticket examiner responsible for checking and selling tickets.

This is better as it improves visibility of on-board staff to the passengers and also means that in times of disruption, there's a second member of staff rather then the solo member of staff being left to fend for themselves.

Routes which have guards on them should be left alone to potter on.

ushawk · 20th July 2012, 20:44

Most of the DOO routes in the South work and i cant see it being expanded on. Only route that i think needs guards is Thameslink, although having guards would cost a hell of a lot.

Pugland53 · 20th July 2012, 21:18

I think it will come in sooner rather than later. It has certainly been discussed a lot at work. They won't get rid of guards, they will be 'downgraded' to ticket examiners but will no longer be safety critical positions. Arriva's Sprinters and Pacers already have the buttons in cabs to arm the doors so that won't be a problem. I for one would be against such moves, I enjoy working with guards and believe they are vital for the safe running of the railway. I would happily turn down a large pay rise to go DOO, I would rather things stay as they are.

Cherry_Picker · 20th July 2012, 21:47

It will happen eventually, all new stock appears to be suitable for DOO work.
GSM-R being implemented nationally removes some safety reasons for having a guard on board. The McNulty report is pushing for it.

As for where and when it will happen? Well, how long is a piece of string? It will be a long time before we see another line go DOO though, I'd think even if plans to make one were announced completely out of the blue tomorrow then it would be years before the first DOO train ran along it. Most, if not all guards roles have got decades left in them in my opinion.

mister-sparky · 20th July 2012, 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by krisk

Won't happen. People like to see staff on trains. What happens when things go wrong?

There's a possibility on short distance regional routes but not after that.

HAS happened. southeastern do it regularly, on commuter and longer distance routes.

robertclark125 · 20th July 2012, 22:40

Merseyrail have assured me there are no plans, even with the new stock, to introduce DOO.

CarterUSM · 20th July 2012, 22:55

Paisley Canal line going DOO on completion of electrification , this December or thereabouts, already been agreed with RMT. Compensation to Guards is 5 extra services a day between Central and Edinburgh(North Berwick?) making it more or less an hourly service until, I assume 1514? I'd expect the rest of the remaining Strathclyde suburban routes to follow, whenever they're wired up.

Kneedown · 20th July 2012, 22:59

DOO is only widely supported by the bean counters and fare dodgers.

**yorkie** · 20th July 2012, 23:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kneedown

DOO is only widely supported by the bean counters and fare dodgers.

Really? So dodgers prefer DOO Strathclyde trains to SWT inner suburbans with guards ?

I think not...

CarterUSM · 20th July 2012, 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by yorkie

Really? So dodgers prefer DOO Strathclyde trains to SWT inner suburbans with guards ?

I think not...

I agree, though they certainly seem to prefer the Strathclyde DOO to the Strathclyde guarded services.

ainsworth74 · 20th July 2012, 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kneedown

DOO is only widely supported by the bean counters and fare dodgers.

Depends on how it's implemented. If it's purely DOO with no on train staff apart from the odd RPI check then I would not support it (apart from high intensity metro style operations). If it's DOO but retaining a ticket examiner who is purely responsible for selling tickets and customer service then I wouldn't really have a problem with it.

starrymarkb · 20th July 2012, 23:56

I could see DOO on some self contained branches*. In Switzerland the line between Meiringen and Innertkirchen is DOO, at stations the driver collects fares at the door to the railcar as passengers board.

Out of interest what is the difference between a guard and ticket collector? Maybe have the TC trained in emergency procedures much like air stewards?

*I'm thinking Liskeard to Looe or similar lines which see a single 153 and are isolated from the mainline.

20th July 2012, 20:16	#1
wigwamman Member Join Date: 20 Jul 2012 Location: wigan Posts: 37	Driver Only Operation (DOO) - When will it arrive? hi everyone its my first post on here so hello,just a question on how easy or costly do you think it would be to install doo on different networks,would it be for instance easy on merseyrail and difficult on say arriva wales,i have a vested intrest as im a conductor but without getting into all the polotics of the matter how long in your opinions does the grade have left. would new stock be needed,station upgrades be done etc.

20th July 2012, 20:44	#5
ushawk Established Member Join Date: 5 Nov 2010 Location: Eastbourne Posts: 1,489	Most of the DOO routes in the South work and i cant see it being expanded on. Only route that i think needs guards is Thameslink, although having guards would cost a hell of a lot. __________________ TOCs Used in 2013 - CH, FC, GA, SE, SN, VT Classes travelled on in 2013 - 168, 171, 313, 319, 375, 377, 390, 90/MK3

20th July 2012, 22:59	#11
Kneedown Driver Instructor Member Join Date: 28 Dec 2007 Location: Nottinghamshire Posts: 917	DOO is only widely supported by the bean counters and fare dodgers. __________________ All opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or policies of my employer.

20th July 2012, 23:56	#15
starrymarkb Established Member Join Date: 4 Aug 2009 Location: Exeter Posts: 3,940	I could see DOO on some self contained branches. In Switzerland the line between Meiringen and Innertkirchen is DOO, at stations the driver collects fares at the door to the railcar as passengers board. Out of interest what is the difference between a guard and ticket collector? Maybe have the TC trained in emergency procedures much like air stewards? I'm thinking Liskeard to Looe or similar lines which see a single 153 and are isolated from the mainline. __________________ My Rail and Aviation Videos \| My Flight Diary Classes Travelled in 2012: 143, 150, 318, 411, 481, 7300, A319, F70, Subway

20th July 2012, 20:24	#2
krisk Awaiting Email Confirmation Join Date: 24 Mar 2011 Posts: 347	Won't happen. People like to see staff on trains. What happens when things go wrong? There's a possibility on short distance regional routes but not after that.

20th July 2012, 20:31	#4
HLE 13 Member Join Date: 1 Mar 2012 Posts: 713	To be honest, I think DOO would be preferred by some but any move to introduce any more would result in strong action against it by the RMT. I'm not a fan of DOO as I feel that the DOO routes should be converted to the SPT model and have a driver responsible for the train and a ticket examiner responsible for checking and selling tickets. This is better as it improves visibility of on-board staff to the passengers and also means that in times of disruption, there's a second member of staff rather then the solo member of staff being left to fend for themselves. Routes which have guards on them should be left alone to potter on.

20th July 2012, 21:18	#6
Pugland53 Member Join Date: 18 Jun 2012 Location: South Wales Posts: 29	I think it will come in sooner rather than later. It has certainly been discussed a lot at work. They won't get rid of guards, they will be 'downgraded' to ticket examiners but will no longer be safety critical positions. Arriva's Sprinters and Pacers already have the buttons in cabs to arm the doors so that won't be a problem. I for one would be against such moves, I enjoy working with guards and believe they are vital for the safe running of the railway. I would happily turn down a large pay rise to go DOO, I would rather things stay as they are.

20th July 2012, 21:47	#7
Cherry_Picker Established Member Join Date: 18 Apr 2011 Location: 52.479°N 1.893°W Posts: 1,354	It will happen eventually, all new stock appears to be suitable for DOO work. GSM-R being implemented nationally removes some safety reasons for having a guard on board. The McNulty report is pushing for it. As for where and when it will happen? Well, how long is a piece of string? It will be a long time before we see another line go DOO though, I'd think even if plans to make one were announced completely out of the blue tomorrow then it would be years before the first DOO train ran along it. Most, if not all guards roles have got decades left in them in my opinion.

20th July 2012, 22:40	#9
robertclark125 Member Join Date: 12 Mar 2008 Location: Cardenden, Fife Posts: 876	Merseyrail have assured me there are no plans, even with the new stock, to introduce DOO.

20th July 2012, 22:55	#10
CarterUSM Established Member Join Date: 4 Jan 2010 Location: North Britain Posts: 2,496	Paisley Canal line going DOO on completion of electrification , this December or thereabouts, already been agreed with RMT. Compensation to Guards is 5 extra services a day between Central and Edinburgh(North Berwick?) making it more or less an hourly service until, I assume 1514? I'd expect the rest of the remaining Strathclyde suburban routes to follow, whenever they're wired up.