[Michael.Y]

Bravo. Post of the year.

[merlodlliw]

Originally Posted by Michael.Y

Bravo. Post of the year.

without repeating it,Gwenllians post it is well thought out, however does fall down by the retort of Cardiff Bashers, or perhaps meaning Cardiff Bay bashers,I have been critical of some of the decisions out of the bay,with good reason,I don't wish to get into a political scenario, but I do live in North East Wales & have done for over 60 years,there is no question the major population is in the South, but the major population in the North of Wales is in the North East,there is a call for a Liverpool service,many work in Merseyside who have been born & bred in North East Wales, Wales & Borders franchise was badly set up,in the real world of business no growth means you go bust,however IWJ could not wait to get his hands on it, it was a pup,better he had waited & bargained,than just except , he later admitted he was sold a pup.

There has always been a relationship with Liverpool, as Newport has a relationship with Cardiff, what is finally getting through is,the majority of travel is East/West not North/South.( ATW figures)
With two WG Ministers whose consituences border Cheshire,they know where their constituents wish to travel to for work & leisure.Two major international
Airports at Manchester & Liverpool are the magnet,Again your thread was well thought out,

Bob

[ivanhoe]

Apart from National Express coaches, there appears to be either little or no direct transport links to Liverpool. This is a far cry from the days of Crosville and the Halton Curve. Is there the demand? Would it take more cars off the road? Would Queensferry be a joy to drive through in the morning and afternoon peaks if public transport links to Liverpool were reinstated? Whilst the final comment was flippant I would be interested of the views of North Walians, Cheshire and Liverpool residents. I can't help but think that the lack of trains would have perhaps made the Bus Companies have express services. Is there really a demand or is it an aspiration?

[merlodlliw]

Originally Posted by ivanhoe

Apart from National Express coaches, there appears to be either little or no direct transport links to Liverpool. This is a far cry from the days of Crosville and the Halton Curve. Is there the demand? Would it take more cars off the road? Would Queensferry be a joy to drive through in the morning and afternoon peaks if public transport links to Liverpool were reinstated? Whilst the final comment was flippant I would be interested of the views of North Walians, Cheshire and Liverpool residents. I can't help but think that the lack of trains would have perhaps made the Bus Companies have express services. Is there really a demand or is it an aspiration?

The Holyhead/Cardiff nine services were an aspiration in my opinion. Whereas Liverpool is only a few miles away,

[Cheshire Rover]

A nice run over the Halton Curve this morning in a well populated Class 150. NCRUG organised it to stop at Helsby, Frodsham and Runcorn en route to Liverpool SP.

[jcollins]

Originally Posted by Cheshire Rover

A nice run over the Halton Curve this morning in a well populated Class 150. NCRUG organised it to stop at Helsby, Frodsham and Runcorn en route to Liverpool SP.

That was the normal Chester-Runcorn parliamentary extended with extra stops. Usually the unit runs ECS to Lime Street so I don't know why the South Parkway stop isn't weekly. Maybe Northern think people will actually use the train to get between Chester and South Parkway and they'll have to run more direct services!

[Cheshire Rover]

Originally Posted by jcollins

That was the normal Chester-Runcorn parliamentary extended with extra stops. Usually the unit runs ECS to Lime Street so I don't know why the South Parkway stop isn't weekly. Maybe Northern think people will actually use the train to get between Chester and South Parkway and they'll have to run more direct services!

Shame that Northern couldn't test the market and try running this in the week at the same time.

[Holly]

Originally Posted by jcollins

That was the normal Chester-Runcorn parliamentary extended with extra stops. Usually the unit runs ECS to Lime Street so I don't know why the South Parkway stop isn't weekly. ...

My understanding is that they will not stop routinely at South Parkway because of access rights. It's a competitive paperwork issue. Perhaps franchise related.

I don't see though how they are prevented from extending the service from Runcorn to Lime Street, nonstop in between. Seems like a gain for no cost to me.

[jcollins]

Originally Posted by Holly

My understanding is that they will not stop routinely at South Parkway because of access rights. It's a competitive paperwork issue. Perhaps franchise related.

I don't see though how they are prevented from extending the service from Runcorn to Lime Street, nonstop in between. Seems like a gain for no cost to me.

Yes Northern would need to submit a formal application to be allowed to run Runcorn-Lime Street services. Virgin and London Midland operate services on that flow so they might object to Northern taking a share of the revenue.

It's the same problem as people in Knutsford and Northwich complaining the last train back from Manchester on Friday and Saturday night being too early and then ATW operating a 00:25 Manchester-Chester service non-stop via Northwich.

[tbtc]

Originally Posted by Gwenllian2001

It is interesting that there is a sudden clamour for direct trains to Liverpool. Throughout its existence, BR never detected such a demand, except on some summer Saturdays. Neither, it seems, did the LMS or LNWR. Perhaps the clamour is coming from those who have moved to Wales from Merseyside. It would be interesting to find out. For the sixty odd years that I have known the area the big draw has always been Chester or Manchester. There might well be people who would appreciate a through service to Liverpool but are there enough of them to justify a regular service? Somehow I doubt it but I would be happy to be proved wrong

People are travelling a lot longer to work/shop nowadays than they were in the LMS/ BR days.

And even if Manchester and Chester are the two biggest flows for North Wales passengers surely Liverpool (which has no service to North Wales) isn't behind Birmingham (bi-hourly service from Holyhead/ Bangor/ Rhyl/ Wrexham) and Cardiff (bi-hourly service from Holyhead/ Bangor/ Rhyl/ Wrexham, on top of the WAG sponsored flights from Anglesey)?

[jcollins]

Originally Posted by tbtc

People are travelling a lot longer to work/shop nowadays than they were in the LMS/ BR days.

That's really the general problem with our railways. Which communities are directly connected is usually based on historical demand, not current demand.

Before EasyJet and Jet 2 came along airports like Liverpool and Leeds-Bradford didn't have a lot to offer, so the rail infrastructure was designed around getting people from northern towns to Manchester Airport. Now Liverpool Airport has more to offer people in North Wales find it's difficult to get to using public transport.

With Liverpool Airport expanding there's also more jobs there but while Flint to Liverpool Airport isn't too long (distance wise) to be a commutable distance, it's too long using public transport because of having to change multiple times.

[unlevel42]

Originally Posted by Gwenllian2001

...
It is interesting that there is a sudden clamour for direct trains to Liverpool. Throughout its existence, BR never detected such a demand, except on some summer Saturdays. Neither, it seems, did the LMS or LNWR. Perhaps the clamour is coming from those who have moved to Wales from Merseyside. It would be interesting to find out. For the sixty odd years that I have known the area the big draw has always been Chester or Manchester. There might well be people who would appreciate a through service to Liverpool but are there enough of them to justify a regular service? Somehow I doubt it but I would be happy to be proved wrong...

I would contend that there was a much stronger but unmet demand for links to Liverpool in the 60' and 70' as far as my experience of the Bangor area is concerned.

For shopping, Chester was the most poular destination in the 60' and 70' but Liverpool was the big treat at this time for shopping and football and we regularly put up with the two/three changes when travelling from Bangor to Liverpool. The demand was also met by local coach operators who provided frequent day trips to both places.
The lack of a through train service - the deplorable conditions of the stock and stations at the Junction/Chester/Rock Ferry and Liverpool and the demise of Liverpools' special shops did weaken the demand.
As a measure of the strength of connection between NW Wales and Liverpool I would suggest asking the questions of the situation in the 60' and 70':
A How many relatives did you have in (1)Liverpool (2) Manchester?
B How of your pals supported(1)Everton/Liverpool (2) Manchester United/City?

The census provides the answer to A. The number of coaches travelling at that time to Liverpool for the football/shopping gives the answer to B. (I used to stick up the posters for both the football and shopping specials)

Why the demand at the time was not satisfied by a regular through service from NW Wales I do not know but we still went to Liverpool as a first choice.

I would agree that the connection between Manchester and Llandudno was stronger. (For Maine Road coach we had to go to the Junction.)








.

[Gwenllian2001]

Originally Posted by unlevel42

I would contend that there was a much stronger but unmet demand for links to Liverpool in the 60' and 70' as far as my experience of the Bangor area is concerned.

For shopping, Chester was the most poular destination in the 60' and 70' but Liverpool was the big treat at this time for shopping and football and we regularly put up with the two/three changes when travelling from Bangor to Liverpool. The demand was also met by local coach operators who provided frequent day trips to both places.
The lack of a through train service - the deplorable conditions of the stock and stations at the Junction/Chester/Rock Ferry and Liverpool and the demise of Liverpools' special shops did weaken the demand.
As a measure of the strength of connection between NW Wales and Liverpool I would suggest asking the questions of the situation in the 60' and 70':
A How many relatives did you have in (1)Liverpool (2) Manchester?
B How of your pals supported(1)Everton/Liverpool (2) Manchester United/City?

The census provides the answer to A. The number of coaches travelling at that time to Liverpool for the football/shopping gives the answer to B. (I used to stick up the posters for both the football and shopping specials)

Why the demand at the time was not satisfied by a regular through service from NW Wales I do not know but we still went to Liverpool as a first choice.

I would agree that the connection between Manchester and Llandudno was stronger. (For Maine Road coach we had to go to the Junction.).

You raise some interesting points. Bangor to Liverpool is a fair old way to commute even if there were plenty of jobs on Merseyside. Unfortunately, the unemployment figures for Liverpool remain consistently above the national average. The question remains as to whether there is there enough demand to support a year round daily service? Under the circumstances, the main flow looks likely be leisure travel, and I include airport travel in that, and of course, Liverpool or Everton home games.

I am well aware of the strong family connections between Liverpool and north Wales and many years ago shared a room with a Welsh speaking ‘Scouser’. You mention the situation in relation to the Sixties but fifty years on those ties are much weaker. People die; families break up and the great attraction of Liverpool as a place of opportunity, for the people of north Wales, is long past. On the other hand, you will hear the accents of the north on the streets of Cardiff more than at any time in the past.

The much criticised services from Holyhead to the south are, on the whole, well used. They do, after all, serve a number of important places even if end to end passengers might be a minority.

I am not against a service to Liverpool. I would like to see it work. As far as I am concerned, the more rail services, the better. But another fly in the ointment is, of course, the lunatic break up of British Rail which has left us with the ‘turf’ problem. We now have the problem of one franchise vying against another to jealously guard its patch which does not help anyone.

On a lighter note, which is the longest through service which starts and ends in Wales?

[merlodlliw]

Originally Posted by Gwenllian2001

You raise some interesting points. Bangor to Liverpool is a fair old way to commute even if there were plenty of jobs on Merseyside. Unfortunately, the unemployment figures for Liverpool remain consistently above the national average. The question remains as to whether there is there enough demand to support a year round daily service? Under the circumstances, the main flow looks likely be leisure travel, and I include airport travel in that, and of course, Liverpool or Everton home games.

I am well aware of the strong family connections between Liverpool and north Wales and many years ago shared a room with a Welsh speaking ‘Scouser’. You mention the situation in relation to the Sixties but fifty years on those ties are much weaker. People die; families break up and the great attraction of Liverpool as a place of opportunity, for the people of north Wales, is long past. On the other hand, you will hear the accents of the north on the streets of Cardiff more than at any time in the past.

The much criticised services from Holyhead to the south are, on the whole, well used. They do, after all, serve a number of important places even if end to end passengers might be a minority.

I am not against a service to Liverpool. I would like to see it work. As far as I am concerned, the more rail services, the better. But another fly in the ointment is, of course, the lunatic break up of British Rail which has left us with the ‘turf’ problem. We now have the problem of one franchise vying against another to jealously guard its patch which does not help anyone.

On a lighter note, which is the longest through service which starts and ends in Wales?

The biggest flow of traffic at Chester is on Merseyrail, now four trains an hour due to traffic, I would not expect some from Bangor to commute to Liverpool, but North East Wales certainly has a great deal of traffic into Chester for Merseyrail.
On the North South route value we beg to differ,but I fully agree the end to end pax is very small.
Also on a lighter note, which ATW managed station has the largest number of tocs using it,

[Michael.Y]

I imagine the answer to the first question is Holyhead to Maesteg. the second is probably Chester; Virgin, ATW, Northern, Merseyrail. Cardiff Central and Newport only serve ATW, XC and FGW. Hereford again only 3, FGW, LM and ATW.