Manchester - Liverpool Electrification

lancastrian · 23 Jan 2013

SteveRainhill said:
Some detail on plans for Huyton and Roby, from the Rail Services Committee of Merseytravel (July 2012).

Report

Appendix

It's surprising how much is planned to be done as part of the electrification.

I was catching up with posts that I had missed and came across yours. I would the plans and explanations very interesting. Having looked at the plans one question leapt to my mind. While I am delighted to see the re-quadrupling of the line here is to be applauded, why only this short bit, surely it would have made far more sense to re-quadruple the line all the way from Edgehill through to Huyton Junction, separating the St. Helen's - Wigan services on the northern pair of tracks and the Manchester services on the southern pair of tracks, this would stop any trains crossing each others paths, which to me always causes time penalties.

I would be interested to hear other views.

RailUK Forums

SteveRainhill · 23 Jan 2013

lancastrian said:
I was catching up with posts that I had missed and came across yours. I would the plans and explanations very interesting. Having looked at the plans one question leapt to my mind. While I am delighted to see the re-quadrupling of the line here is to be applauded, why only this short bit, surely it would have made far more sense to re-quadruple the line all the way from Edgehill through to Huyton Junction, separating the St. Helen's - Wigan services on the northern pair of tracks and the Manchester services on the southern pair of tracks, this would stop any trains crossing each others paths, which to me always causes time penalties.

I would be interested to hear other views.

The idea is of course to allow fast Manchester trains (4 per hour under the Northern Hub) to overtake slow ones. I suppose the pathing calculations showed that this short stretch of four-tracking, given that it contains two stations that will detain the local trains, will be enough. That is fortunate, since to go further would mean expensive work on the road infrastructure at the end of the M62 (the Rocket) and new platforms, or loops, at two stations. Almost all of the needed alignment is still available (even the old platforms are still in place at Huyton and Roby), which makes this intervention a lot cheaper.

On crossing moves see some of the preceding posts.

What continues to puzzle me is why a lot of the work is being done under the electrification, several years earlier than the Northern Hub when the capacity will be needed. Or, if it is cheaper to do it now, why not all of it is being done.

8A Rail · 24 Jan 2013

lancastrian said:
I was catching up with posts that I had missed and came across yours. I would the plans and explanations very interesting. Having looked at the plans one question leapt to my mind. While I am delighted to see the re-quadrupling of the line here is to be applauded, why only this short bit, surely it would have made far more sense to re-quadruple the line all the way from Edgehill through to Huyton Junction, separating the St. Helen's - Wigan services on the northern pair of tracks and the Manchester services on the southern pair of tracks, this would stop any trains crossing each others paths, which to me always causes time penalties.
I would be interested to hear other views.

Simply it is no longer physically possible anymore, it is really simple at that.

To explain further, without MAJOR infrastructure work with the end of the M62 and slip roads as well, along with the widening of the concrete bridge that straddles the two lines just after Broadgreen Station, it is not possible, To further complicate matters, although you could still have four tracks in Olive Mount Cutting, your next obsacle is Wavertree Technology Park Station which is built on the previous slow lines trackbed, along with the extension of the embankment between there and Bootle Bch Junction which provides the foundations for the Technology buildings already there. So as you may appreciate to shift all the above in the present & future economic climate's is just about impossible. HTH?

What Network Rail are proposing is a compromise, which is better than nothing and still will help with the movement of the trains on that section.

lancastrian · 24 Jan 2013

8A Rail said:
Simply it is no longer physically possible anymore, it is really simple at that.

To explain further, without MAJOR infrastructure work with the end of the M62 and slip roads as well, along with the widening of the concrete bridge that straddles the two lines just after Broadgreen Station, it is not possible, To further complicate matters, although you could still have four tracks in Olive Mount Cutting, your next obsacle is Wavertree Technology Park Station which is built on the previous slow lines trackbed, along with the extension of the embankment between there and Bootle Bch Junction which provides the foundations for the Technology buildings already there. So as you may appreciate to shift all the above in the present & future economic climate's is just about impossible. HTH?

What Network Rail are proposing is a compromise, which is better than nothing and still will help with the movement of the trains on that section.

OK, that answers my question. It has been many years since I travelled this line, and all four tracks were still there, although possibly not in use (1970's).

Regarding the M62 bridge and slip roads. I seem to remember having read somewhere that if the Railway needed to reinstate lines that had been blocked by the building of a motorway/road bridge that the Highways Agency had to rebuild it at a cost to them, not to the railways. Is that true? If so why could it not be done, but if it is not true, question answered.

I just thought it would have made sense to try and increase the capacity as well as possible at this time rather than having to do it again later. Although having watched Network Rail, and before them BR, it seems to be standard procedure. Build something as cheap as possible, then when usage get way in excess of predictions (usually in the first year) spend 3 - 4 times as much to put in all the things you should have done at the start.

Rant over.

HSTEd · 25 Jan 2013

"Gold Plating" is expensive and what happens when the project doesn't generate enormous increases in traffic as predicted?

The idea of getting a ramshackle service going first and then seeing how it goes is fundamentally a good one.

AndyLandy · 25 Jan 2013

HSTEd said:
"Gold Plating" is expensive and what happens when the project doesn't generate enormous increases in traffic as predicted?

The idea of getting a ramshackle service going first and then seeing how it goes is fundamentally a good one.

I'm not entirely convinced on that one. If you can cost-effectively build in futureproofing during a project, even though it's out-of-scope now, it should be taken seriously. So, when you do clearance works anywhere on the railway, making sure they're done in a way such that OLE can be retro-fitted is a good idea.

Holly · 25 Jan 2013

lancastrian said:
... Network Rail, and before them BR, it seems to be standard procedure. Build something as cheap as possible, then when usage get way in excess of predictions (usually in the first year) spend 3 - 4 times as much to put in all the things you should have done at the start....

HS2 is a good example of that.
Everything I have read suggests they plan on making this new construction "just the right size" loading gauge.

Which means it is certain to be too small at some future date.
Instead of making it Chunnel sized from day one at relatively little extra cost.

No....., it's cut costs to the bone - and to hell with future proofing.

Chris125 · 26 Jan 2013

Holly said:
HS2 is a good example of that.
Everything I have read suggests they plan on making this new construction "just the right size" loading gauge.

Which means it is certain to be too small at some future date.
Instead of making it Chunnel sized from day one at relatively little extra cost.

No....., it's cut costs to the bone - and to hell with future proofing.

HS2 will be built to the same loading gauge as HS1, and as far as i'm aware most if not all European HSL's. As there are no plans for it to be ever used by freight, let alone Channel Tunnel vehicle shuttles at a sufficient frequency to justify the extra expense, it doesn't make any sense to build to the Channel Tunnel loading gauge.

Chris

swt_passenger · 26 Jan 2013

Holly said:
HS2 is a good example of that.
Everything I have read suggests they plan on making this new construction "just the right size" loading gauge.

HS2 will be built to UIC GC gauge. That has always been the case, ever since the first announcement by Adonis. That is also the largest gauge specified in the interoperbility standards (TSI).

Channel Tunnel gauge is a red herring, it is a captive gauge specifically designed for the drive on - drive off freight and passenger shuttles used only in the tunnel - and it is not, and never has been intended as a gauge for use on railways generally.

If 'everything you have read' says anything different you must have been reading the wrong info...

Holly · 26 Jan 2013

swt_passenger said:
HS2 will be built to UIC GC gauge. ...
Channel Tunnel gauge ... never has been intended as a gauge for use on railways generally.

Exactly.
Penny wise.

ainsworth74 · 26 Jan 2013

Holly said:
Exactly.
Penny wise.

In which case you can say the same about railways throughout Europe as no-one is building to Channel Tunnel gauge because why on earth would you? I'm all in favour of future proofing but this feels like a bit like too much proofing for too much money for me.

DJH1971 · 2 Feb 2013

Whilst travelling into Manchester today, I can now confirm that a further stretch of catenary is now in place around Ordsall Lane Junction.

Pictures also attached, of which I took this morning.

HSTEd · 3 Feb 2013

swt_passenger said:
HS2 will be built to UIC GC gauge. That has always been the case, ever since the first announcement by Adonis. That is also the largest gauge specified in the interoperbility standards (TSI).

Channel Tunnel gauge is a red herring, it is a captive gauge specifically designed for the drive on - drive off freight and passenger shuttles used only in the tunnel - and it is not, and never has been intended as a gauge for use on railways generally.

It has not been designed for use on general railways... it is smaller than gauges designed for general use on railways in India, the US and China.... :P

But that is for freight use which will be going nowhere near HS2... although frankly the TSI loading gauge is too restrictive. We should be going for a Shinkansen compatible envelope (which is substantially wider).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

ainsworth74 said:
In which case you can say the same about railways throughout Europe as no-one is building to Channel Tunnel gauge because why on earth would you? I'm all in favour of future proofing but this feels like a bit like too much proofing for too much money for me.

Betuweroute has had all infrastructure sized to enable a full AAR Plate H loading gauge for future double stack transports.

Inox · 5 Feb 2013

DJH1971 said:
Whilst travelling into Manchester today, I can now confirm that a further stretch of catenary is now in place around Ordsall Lane Junction.

Pictures also attached, of which I took this morning.

View attachment 13425

View attachment 13426

View attachment 13427

View attachment 13428

View attachment 13429

View attachment 13430

View attachment 13431

View attachment 13432

View attachment 13433

hi

yeah, they've been up for a while those OHs. last night they were digging a trench on the side of the track, for what i do not know.

The OHs don't seem to be going up s fast as i thought they'd be - they seem to stop just before the bridge in front of the Windsor link....perhaps - maybe im looking out the wrong window...

DJH1971 · 5 Feb 2013

Inox said:
hi

yeah, they've been up for a while those OHs. last night they were digging a trench on the side of the track, for what i do not know.

The OHs don't seem to be going up s fast as i thought they'd be - they seem to stop just before the bridge in front of the Windsor link....perhaps - maybe im looking out the wrong window...

Well, this stretch of catenary certainly wasn't up two weeks ago.

Bevan Price · 6 Feb 2013

Between Huyton & Roby today (6 Feb.), vegetation clearance in progress - almost complete on alignment of former slow lines, and a start has been made on clearing old ballast & other "debris" on that alignment.

DJH1971 · 6 Feb 2013

Bevan Price said:
Between Huyton & Roby today (6 Feb.), vegetation clearance in progress - almost complete on alignment of former slow lines, and a start has been made on clearing old ballast & other "debris" on that alignment.

I wonder then if the four-tracking will happen sooner than we think?

D365 · 6 Feb 2013

DJH1971 said:
I wonder then if the four-tracking will happen sooner than we think?

You already said that :P

DJH1971 said:
I've a feeling that the four-tracking could happen more sooner than we think.

DJH1971 · 6 Feb 2013

DAB_Move said:
You already said that :P

I know, but can't help feeling things around there are going faster than I believe.

They need to get a wiggle on with the Chat Moss area though, although more masts are now up than of late.

Geeves · 6 Feb 2013

They still have till next December/January to get stage one complete. Not that much of a rush!!

I say December for stage one, if the trains actually arrive on time, which someone said were delayed by 6 months?

D365 · 7 Feb 2013

Geeves said:
They still have till next December/January to get stage one complete. Not that much of a rush!!

I say December for stage one, if the trains actually arrive on time, which someone said were delayed by 6 months?

I heard that all too, a 350/1 is supposed to be loaned from LM for initialisation. Very exciting stuff on Stephenson's old line!

SteveRainhill · 7 Feb 2013

DJH1971 said:
I wonder then if the four-tracking will happen sooner than we think?

To be more exact, three tracking will happen sooner than you think (see post 132)

.

YorkshireBear · 7 Feb 2013

SteveRainhill said:
To be more exact, three tracking will happen sooner than you think (see post 132) .

Went back to that post very interesting!

76020 · 7 Feb 2013

Geeves said:
They still have till next December/January to get stage one complete. Not that much of a rush!!

I say December for stage one, if the trains actually arrive on time, which someone said were delayed by 6 months?

According to the Rail Engineer from 28/11/12 it is required earlier than you quoted:-

Rail engineer notes from 28/11/12

Phase 1 of the project is to be fully commissioned during September 2013. Following a period of driver training, the line will be ready in December 2013 to make history once again when the first electric trains run from Manchester Airport along the route to its connection with the West Coast Mainline.

The Phase 2 works are now at the detailed design stage, with commissioning of the scheme scheduled for August 2014 when, for the first time, electric trains will run on George Stephensons Liverpool to Manchester route.

DJH1971 · 7 Feb 2013

76020 said:
According to the Rail Engineer from 28/11/12 it is required earlier than you quoted:-

Rail engineer notes from 28/11/12

Phase 1 of the project is to be fully commissioned during September 2013. Following a period of driver training, the line will be ready in December 2013 to make history once again when the first electric trains run from Manchester Airport along the route to its connection with the West Coast Mainline.

The Phase 2 works are now at the detailed design stage, with commissioning of the scheme scheduled for August 2014 when, for the first time, electric trains will run on George Stephensons Liverpool to Manchester route.

I read that a whole back, so they need to go all out on the Chat Moss area.

Geeves · 7 Feb 2013

Thank you for the correct information 76020

I guess they better had crack on after all!!

76020 · 8 Feb 2013

Geeves said:
Thank you for the correct information 76020

I guess they better had crack on after all!!

Yes, I sure those hard working Balfour Beatty boys were out last night to put up a few more metal sticks.

The interesting thing is that all stages of the project are around the same length i.e. 15 miles but stage two involves two lines so it 30 miles to be electrified by Aug 2014, plus the four track section as above which can be electrified while it is not in use, but by this time next year they could be up against it.
On top of this we are still waiting for who is going to build the new Thameslink trains, once that's done then you will have to take out the Class 319's for refurbishment, not a five minute job.

Chris125 · 8 Feb 2013

76020 said:
On top of this we are still waiting for who is going to build the new Thameslink trains, once that's done then you will have to take out the Class 319's for refurbishment, not a five minute job.

The extra 377/6's and the 200-odd vehicle interim fleet should help avoid any crisis now thankfully.

Chris

DJH1971 · 8 Feb 2013

76020 said:
Yes, I sure those hard working Balfour Beatty boys were out last night to put up a few more metal sticks.

The interesting thing is that all stages of the project are around the same length i.e. 15 miles but stage two involves two lines so it 30 miles to be electrified by Aug 2014, plus the four track section as above which can be electrified while it is not in use, but by this time next year they could be up against it.
On top of this we are still waiting for who is going to build the new Thameslink trains, once that's done then you will have to take out the Class 319's for refurbishment, not a five minute job.

I heard a while back that the 319's were not compatable with the new OHL system, unless they come up with a fix of some kind.

61653 HTAFC · 8 Feb 2013

DJH1971 said:
I heard a while back that the 319's were not compatable with the new OHL system, unless they come up with a fix of some kind.

I think they just need new pans, maybe one or two other tweaks- relatively minor as an add-on to the heavy refurbs they'll be getting anyway.

Manchester - Liverpool Electrification

Member

RailUK Forums

Member

Established Member

Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Member

Forum Staff

Established Member

Veteran Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member