YorkshireBear
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Nelson Mandela has died
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ATW Alex 101
Established Member
Nelson Mandela has sadly died a few minutes ago.
Such a great person, they say God only takes the best.
RIP
Such a great person, they say God only takes the best.
RIP
nxea321446
Member
was watching mrs browns boys when bbc1 interrupted with the sad news
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
A great man and a remarkable life. He demonstrated how to fight injustice while at the same time showing love to the people who committed the injustice.
90sWereBetter
Member
RIP Nelson Mandela. There are no words adequate enough to describe this loss to the world. What a man. 
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Chapeltom
Established Member
Just my view, or lack of:
Its actually difficult to say anything other than 'RIP Nelson Mandela' when I confess I know very little about apartheid and won't be swayed by either the left wing agenda or right wing agenda. It is something I've never really taken a great interest in. I can't pass judgement on someone based on media propaganda either way. It does seem that the media are viewing this in black and white, and indeed 99.9% of the general population are too. There has been a rise in 'experts' on the topic this evening jumping on the bandwagon. For example one person on facebook was talking how inspirational Mandela was, I pressed them and wanted to know why, they didn't have much of an answer, same applied to the person who was shouting off Mandela was a terrorist. People are unfortunately sheep, and most people don't think twice about following the populist view, those who follow the minority, negative view are just as guilty of being sheep.
Now as a student in both History and Politics, I have always been taught nothing is black and white in history. There is good and bad, positive elements and negative elements in all political events and people. It seems a lot of people don't consider both sides to a debate, hence why we've got 95% of people shouting Mandela was a hero and 5% shouting he was a terrorist. There is not a balanced view on Mandela either way, it seems your either for or against him. Surely politics, political leaders and life in general cannot be viewed this way? You cannot view life through rose tinted spectacles. I wouldn't mind if the good old BBC could provide a nice balanced view so those of us who don't know as much about apartheid/Mandela could make our mind up. I always like to form an opinion or take an interpretation of a political event or person by looking at all the facts, were clearly not going to get that with Mandela.
Its actually difficult to say anything other than 'RIP Nelson Mandela' when I confess I know very little about apartheid and won't be swayed by either the left wing agenda or right wing agenda. It is something I've never really taken a great interest in. I can't pass judgement on someone based on media propaganda either way. It does seem that the media are viewing this in black and white, and indeed 99.9% of the general population are too. There has been a rise in 'experts' on the topic this evening jumping on the bandwagon. For example one person on facebook was talking how inspirational Mandela was, I pressed them and wanted to know why, they didn't have much of an answer, same applied to the person who was shouting off Mandela was a terrorist. People are unfortunately sheep, and most people don't think twice about following the populist view, those who follow the minority, negative view are just as guilty of being sheep.
Now as a student in both History and Politics, I have always been taught nothing is black and white in history. There is good and bad, positive elements and negative elements in all political events and people. It seems a lot of people don't consider both sides to a debate, hence why we've got 95% of people shouting Mandela was a hero and 5% shouting he was a terrorist. There is not a balanced view on Mandela either way, it seems your either for or against him. Surely politics, political leaders and life in general cannot be viewed this way? You cannot view life through rose tinted spectacles. I wouldn't mind if the good old BBC could provide a nice balanced view so those of us who don't know as much about apartheid/Mandela could make our mind up. I always like to form an opinion or take an interpretation of a political event or person by looking at all the facts, were clearly not going to get that with Mandela.
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Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
A person who succeeded against all the odds in bringing change to his own nation yet always having an air of humility even when holding the highest post.
heart-of-wessex
Established Member
I'll say, even just the basics. I personally didn't know much but I knew the outline and who he was, compared to some work colleagues who thought he was either a footballer or a Hollywood actor...
Either way, do you reckon here and now is the best place to express any doubts you may have? I'm not sure a Railway forum is where I would go to tell people "Maybe Mandela wasn't all that!" on the night he died. I personally feel he was a good man, certainly for the fact he would tell anyone that he wasn't perfect.
By the way, how can you be a student of History and Politics and not know much about Mandela? Surely that would have been like me doing my Mechanical Engineering degree and not knowing much about engineering materials?
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MidnightFlyer
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It's what a lot of people on here did when Lady Thatcher died...
atillathehunn
Established Member
http://www.economist.com/blogs/baobab/2013/12/nelson-mandela-0?fsrc=scn/fb/wl/mdla/agiantpasses
The Economist gives a slightly better overview of his life and achievements, as well as his pitfalls and frailties. He never claimed to be a saint, nor a genius. He did lead his country from decades of abuse and racial injustice. The world has lost a great man tonight, who bound a nation together and showed love to his opposition and naturally demanded white equality with blacks.
We have lost another great leader, another statesman, another activist so committed to his cause he would give his liberty; moreover we lost a man. The last point is reason enough to mourn.
The Economist gives a slightly better overview of his life and achievements, as well as his pitfalls and frailties. He never claimed to be a saint, nor a genius. He did lead his country from decades of abuse and racial injustice. The world has lost a great man tonight, who bound a nation together and showed love to his opposition and naturally demanded white equality with blacks.
We have lost another great leader, another statesman, another activist so committed to his cause he would give his liberty; moreover we lost a man. The last point is reason enough to mourn.
Well there you go mate. Call me a rabble rouser but you mentioned Thatcher because you knew it would get a response, the same as when you questioned if Mandela was a good man. You knew damn well what kind of response you would get.
Chapeltom
Established Member
First point, I have no doubt that this man meant a lot to millions of people, I'd just like to know why. But I was kind of playing devils advocate and was until that last point, I don't know absolutely nothing, of course I know quite a bit about Mandela and actually a hell of a lot about the British building their empire and British/Dutch exploiting the natural resources of S Africa, for its gold and diamonds which were discovered at the confluence of the Vaal and Orange Rivers in the late 1860s if I remember my 2nd year history essay correctly! It was more playing on general ignorance of most of the population who have quickly formed an opinion based on what the media have told them to think. This probably doesn't make too much sense but I am quite tired now.
Second point, very easily. In Politics I've done a year at Uni on democracy, a hell of a lot on British Politics and ideology, bits of American politics and European issues. In History, I've done a lot about the 1914-1989 period in Europe, a year course on the British empire, about modern dictatorships. My politics dissertation is focussed on how UK/US relations changed as a result of the Second World War, History special study on whether Thatcher's role in ending the Cold War was overstated. I'm now a third year student, I've done about South Africa and the Boer War.
Can I just apologise to you mate. I have re read what you have said and it makes perfect sense of course. I didn't mean to jump down your throat. I understand completely what you are saying. I still think he was a good man though.
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Chapeltom
Established Member
I never mentioned Thatcher and it wasn't my intention for her to be brought up by someone else. :roll: I didn't know one post would cause such a commotion. I didn't intend for it to be ****-stirring to be honest, although I'm not easily wound up. I clearly touched a raw nerve. I could have said a similar sort of thing at Uni and it might have sparked an interesting debate.
Still, must get to bed. Got an early lecture on the Anatomy of Fascism, that 50 mile commute to Liverpool won't do itself.
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DaveHarries
Established Member
On 30th January 1948, after the assassination of Mahatma Ghandi, the then PM of India, Jawaharlal Nehru, said: "Friends and comrades, the light has gone out of our lives, and there is darkness everywhere, [...] Our beloved leader [...] the father of the nation, is no more [...] We will not see him again, as we have seen him for these many years, we will not run to him for advice or seek solace from him, and that is a terrible blow [...] for millions and millions in this country."
Tonight, 05th December 2013, the death has been announced of another person about whom the same may well, and doubtless will, be said. RIP Nelson Mandela.
Tonight, 05th December 2013, the death has been announced of another person about whom the same may well, and doubtless will, be said. RIP Nelson Mandela.
MidnightFlyer
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I'm not doing it for any response (I have better things to do with my life than wind up people on the internet :roll
, I was merely stating that yes, in the past threads on here have shown things but utmost respect for the recently deceased. I will agree absolutely wholeheartedly that it is important to be respectful of the dead, but that shouldn't impede upon someone's freedom to question and speak their mind. I don't really see Chapeltom's contributions as lacking in respect. I am apprehensive to say this but shall anyway: one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. That is why you will get some people (not myself or Chapeltom I should add) who won't be very pleasant about him.Many apologies mate. I found myself at crossed purposes and feel a bit of a fool and rightly so. Having a bit of a rough time at the minute and didn't mean to take it out on you (Stupidly so). All the very best in your studies, I am born and bred in Liverpool and hope you are having a good time studying here. Much love to you and yours.
Good for you.
There is a stark difference between the Mandela sold to us by the BBC, and the real Mandela who fought in the eighties.
Has anyone on this forum heard of the Church Street Bomb in 1983? Or the bomb at the Kruger? Or the bomb in Durban?
Has anyone on this forum read about the ANC cadets massacred in Angola and Namibia? Did you know they ran concentration camps, which Mandela knew about?
Does anyone actually know why he went to Robben Island?
If I pick up the phone and make an order; let us say 20 tonnes of explosive powder and around 210,000 hand grenades, I'm pretty sure I'd go to prison.
Amnesty International turned him away. He applied as a political prisoner, they turned him down. They judged that his trial was fair.
He had the chance to leave Robben Island. President Botha said to Mandela - denounce violence, you can leave. Mandela refused.
He is not the hero he is made out to be.
Before the screams of racism start, which I am sure they will, I would like to point out that I in no way support the apartheid system.
But there are better icons for equality and liberty. Say Desmond Tutu, Martin Luther King, even Gandhi.
Not Mandela. Never Mandela.
(edit - I just want to point out that although I do not agree with the principle of celebrating death, I'm not going to hold back on criticising a man who was on the US Terrorist list until 2008, acutely remembering the champagne corks that popped when Mrs Thatcher died)
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Butts
Veteran Member
Whatever his shortcomings he did at least act as a focal point to the eventual removal of apartheid.
It's a shame his legacy has been soured by his corrupt successors.
As a result of this many poor blacks are no better off than they were under the white regime.
A white elite has been replaced by a black one which cares just as little about the "man on the street"
It's a shame his legacy has been soured by his corrupt successors.
As a result of this many poor blacks are no better off than they were under the white regime.
A white elite has been replaced by a black one which cares just as little about the "man on the street"
The ANC have stolen billions, and led the country down the pan. They were founded by terrorists and continue to be run by terrorists. Zuma was an employee in the Angola camps I talked about earlier. Media coverage for that?
Zero.
Meanwhile, the picture of Mandela's cell continues to do the rounds.
Funny how the cell the BBC show looks distinctively different to the cell he lived in twenty years ago.
http://praag.org/?p=12244
Zero.
Meanwhile, the picture of Mandela's cell continues to do the rounds.
Funny how the cell the BBC show looks distinctively different to the cell he lived in twenty years ago.
http://praag.org/?p=12244
jhoncarter
New Member
"The World Has lost Someone Truely Inspiring.
Rest In Peace NELSON MANDELA Sir (1918-2013)...!"
Rest In Peace NELSON MANDELA Sir (1918-2013)...!"
Unless, of course, it is a "student of politics and history" specialising in periods pre-20th century, or areas outside Africa. And what he wrote is fair enough, that the sources we are hearing from today are partial one way or another, and we must wait until a more balanced view is possible
I agree, however, that this particular moment, when genuine grief is raw, is not a tactful time to be calling for a more balanced appraisal.
I honestly do not understand why anyone should pretend to outpour grief for a man who has led to the deaths of thousands and the poverty of millions more.
Clearly my earlier posts were a complete waste of time.
Perhaps those praising Mandela would like to go and speak to the families of these attrocities.
http://www.censorbugbear.org/black-racism/terrorism/nelson-mandela-the-bombing-record
Perhaps you would go to Soweto and see for yourself what the ANC have done in their so called 'struggle' for freedom and equality.
Perhaps you would visit the farmers, who live in fear every evening. Over 4000 of them have been slaughtered, but the ANC ban them for defending themselves. They stripped their weapons and disbanded the farm patrols. These were the same farmers who Mandela sang about killing. And to those of you who couldn't possibly conceive that Mandela would do such a thing, go onto YouTube and see for yourself; type 'Mandela sings about klling whites.'
Clearly my earlier posts were a complete waste of time.
Perhaps those praising Mandela would like to go and speak to the families of these attrocities.
http://www.censorbugbear.org/black-racism/terrorism/nelson-mandela-the-bombing-record
Perhaps you would go to Soweto and see for yourself what the ANC have done in their so called 'struggle' for freedom and equality.
Perhaps you would visit the farmers, who live in fear every evening. Over 4000 of them have been slaughtered, but the ANC ban them for defending themselves. They stripped their weapons and disbanded the farm patrols. These were the same farmers who Mandela sang about killing. And to those of you who couldn't possibly conceive that Mandela would do such a thing, go onto YouTube and see for yourself; type 'Mandela sings about klling whites.'
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I don't think it's possible to lay the blame for everything at his feet. He has been out of power for 14 years now, and was only President for five years out of the last hundred.
In modern times equality is seen as paramount. Racial segregation is unconscionable. 'Am I not a man and a brother?'
Bringing an end to that is a clear achievement. The subsequent mess is much harder to unravel.
99.99% of posts on the internet are a waste of time, including this one.
I doubt it.
I think you miss the point and are choosing to obfuscate.
Apartheid is and was objectively wrong. Those who were fighting against it inevitably acquire a much greater legitimacy than those who were enforcing it (who also committed atrocities, and with much less cause, since they were in the position of power). Violence is often necessary to uproot evil. You do not evaluate WW2 by reading the combined works of David Irving any more than you can evaluate Mandela's legacy by reference to one-sided white nationalist websites.
Apartheid was wrong and was ended in large part through Mandela. The subsequent failure of the South African government to act on AIDS, violence, and other things are a separate issue and they do not alter any part of apartheid being wrong.
The unstated and implied argument you are making is obviously 'the current ZA government is ineffective, therefore it was wrong to end apartheid'. It's just as reasonable, however, to conclude 'The current ZA government came about because of apartheid.' In other words, colonial minority governments inevitably begat unstable majority governments after they end.
There are plenty of examples around the world of 'good' and 'bad' colonialism, but what is absolutely wrong and absurd is to suggest that the current ANC government arose through abiogenesis and has nothing to do with what came before it.
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Thank God for this forum.
I was starting to think all those right wing nutters who supported that dodgy apartheid Goverment had disappeared.
Personally i'd have kicked out the white racists on gaining power.
That's what made Nelson Mandela different.
Rest in Peace old warrior.
I was starting to think all those right wing nutters who supported that dodgy apartheid Goverment had disappeared.
Personally i'd have kicked out the white racists on gaining power.
That's what made Nelson Mandela different.
Rest in Peace old warrior.
I don't think anyone could have put that better.
ralphchadkirk
Established Member
I wonder if HST Power applies the same opinion that he has about Mandela to Allied forces in WW2.
GWRtom
Member
He replaced one Racist government with another
Not to mention his antisemitism.
Mandela sings about killing the Boer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcOXqFQw2hc
Zuma sings about killing the Boer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fzRSE_p1Ys
Straw man argument is straw man
Not to mention his antisemitism.
Mandela sings about killing the Boer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcOXqFQw2hc
Zuma sings about killing the Boer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fzRSE_p1Ys
Straw man argument is straw man
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