I think it is safe to say most are current or ex mainline so already well aware of those bits!
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West Coast Railways Suspended (now reinstated)
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I think it is safe to say most are current or ex mainline so already well aware of those bits!
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Virtually all (a couple of exceptions employed by west coast) steam drivers are mainline drivers. Many WCR drivers are retired and working on zero hours contracts (hence why WCR charge less than DB) and they are men of considerable experience.
There is a school or thought that the old hands do not make the best drivers.
I suspect that a lot of the investigation into both the SPAD and other issues will focus on competancy management. Records of rules and regs testing, monitoring and the big one, route knowledge. The RAIB will be interested in how frequently drivers have worked over routes, records of route learning and route refreshing.
There is a school or thought that the old hands do not make the best drivers.
I suspect that a lot of the investigation into both the SPAD and other issues will focus on competancy management. Records of rules and regs testing, monitoring and the big one, route knowledge. The RAIB will be interested in how frequently drivers have worked over routes, records of route learning and route refreshing.
Rail Ranger
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Busterfridge,
Last Saturday's Compass by West Coast trip from Cleethorpes to Llandudno ran top and tailed with the DBS Royal 67s so that side of WCRC's business has been sorted out remarkably quickly in terms of sourcing an alternative provider. However on the steam front I see that Saturday 11th April's trip from Lincoln to Chester with 46233 is now showing as cancelled on the PRCLT website http://www.prclt.co.uk/Tours.html.
Last Saturday's Compass by West Coast trip from Cleethorpes to Llandudno ran top and tailed with the DBS Royal 67s so that side of WCRC's business has been sorted out remarkably quickly in terms of sourcing an alternative provider. However on the steam front I see that Saturday 11th April's trip from Lincoln to Chester with 46233 is now showing as cancelled on the PRCLT website http://www.prclt.co.uk/Tours.html.
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ilkestonian
Member
My first thought was that DBS couldn't operate it because they don't sign vacuum stock, but 46233 was converted to air a while back, apparently, so there must be other logistical reasons why WCRC couldn't get it covered.
D1009
Established Member
DBS can only cover what they can within their resources, and unlike WCRC charter trains are not their main business.
Going back to WCRC, who are the drivers actually responsible to for the quality of their work? Franchised operators have driver managers, safety directors etc who carry out regular assessments and make sure the company operates safely and within the law.
What are the similarities to the DCR SPAD at Stafford, where the driver involved also happened to be a senior manager?
Going back to WCRC, who are the drivers actually responsible to for the quality of their work? Franchised operators have driver managers, safety directors etc who carry out regular assessments and make sure the company operates safely and within the law.
What are the similarities to the DCR SPAD at Stafford, where the driver involved also happened to be a senior manager?
Peter Mugridge
Veteran Member
Do they still usually have a traction inspector on the footplate of a steam tour as well as the driver and fireman?
edwin_m
Veteran Member
The train crew are responsible for obeying all the various Rule Book rules and company procedures.
The company is responsible for managing its staff. This include ensuring that they are all aware of those rules etc, monitoring compliance with them and taking corrective actions if some of their crews are not complying.
This isn't unique to WCR, it applies to all TOCs and the same principle applies to all employees and companies under Health and Safety legislation though it's more complicated on the railway than in most other industries.
In the case of WCR it is suggested that a train crew failed to obey important rules in relation to use of safety systems and reporting when they have been activated. If everything else was OK this would be a serious but manageable situation, and the company would deal with it under its internal procedures including suspending the crew from duty if appropriate.
However it is also alleged that the company has failed in its duties to manage compliance, and that is the part that has led to track access being suspended.
Thus there are similarities between what is alleged for WCR and what the Stafford enquiry suggests happened in DCR. The fact that DCR's track access was not suspended suggests that they cleaned up their act quite quickly.
ilkestonian
Member
AIUI When DBS operate steam, they have a driver, a fireman (both regular DBS drivers) and a traction inspector, whereas WCRC used a qualified driver, and a fireman. Not sure if there are owners reps etc allowed on WCRC footplates.
If anyone hasn't read this yet I urge you to. This adjudication about an earlier incident is pretty damning of West Coast Railways who brought the dispute but have their claims completely thrown out by the adjudicator who finds that NR behaved more than reasonably while WCR come across like Vicky Pollard "Yeah but no but" with a refusal to take responsibility.
If I were involved in running or regulating the railway I wouldn't let WCR anywhere near it without a change of management.
DDB
http://www.steamdreams.co.uk/executables/GT410WebContent.exe?ActionCode=Timings
West Coast Railways seem to think their is a fairly quick resolution to this or that is what they are telling Steam Dreams at least. Today is Tuesday so I wonder if it will actually be the case.
West Coast Railways seem to think their is a fairly quick resolution to this or that is what they are telling Steam Dreams at least. Today is Tuesday so I wonder if it will actually be the case.
Tomorrow's Dumfries To Shrewsbury Compass By West Coast Tour cancelled.
Steam was due to be involved from/ to Preston.
The TPWS one seems to be halfway between Normal and Isolated
Possibly they are showing their arrogance again, or still don't believe the event was serious.
Tim R-T-C
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I wonder if they are hoping to get an exemption to run the pre booked charters - given the financial losses that would be suffered by their customers?
I suspect that it is a case of attitude - Network Rail (rightly) expects the highest standards of operator behaviour and WCRC have fallen short in what could be seen as a wilful manner.
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And a steam train is neither.
Indeed, although the term used in academic economics for affected individuals (and small suppliers etc.) is "hostages", which is particularly awkward in situations like this where safety must come first and rightly so, especially given the prevalence of mark 1 coaches in such formations.
ralphchadkirk
Established Member
I'm working my way through Network Rail's evidence for that adjudication at the moment. The overwhelming impression I am receiving is one of West Coast's managerial incompetence at incident investigation and implementing procedures to prevent reoccurrence.
Working fine on this end.
Hmmm. Inclined to agree 100%.
As I read and digest the info it all seems very reminiscent of the DCR SPAD at Stafford a few years back. I also find the use of drivers on zero hours contracts bizarre and am intrigued to know how they keep themselves up to date on all those routes signed when they only do a few hours here and there.
It certainly appears that AWS/TPWS was isolated. While this wouldn't have stopped the SPAD it would have reduced the overrun distance. As already mentioned there have been two fairly high profile incidents reported of TOCs recently. The reset & continue on the Great Northern Route and the failure of the TPWS to stop a Chiltern train which had two SPADS. While I don't know the outcome of the Chiltern incident, the GN (then FCC) resulted in driver suspension (for the reset and continue not the SPAD) and eventual prosecution by the ORR. While i'm not suggesting that should be the case in every "breach of rules" incident, it does concern me when so called professional "old hands" appear to feel that resetting safety systems and ignoring rules is just fine. It isn't. It puts people at risk and if I were to do it following an incident at my TOC I would also be suspended.
I sincerely hope the situation at WCR is not the same as it was at DCR at the time of the Stafford incident where the drivers are not correctly managed by an appropriate CMS.
Strange, I get a Freeola page not found page. However the links I get take to, e.g. http://www.accessdisputesrail.org/New ADC Web/Access Dispute Adjudications/ADA20 Documents\WCR's Statement of Claim.doc have a back slash (\), If I change this to a forward slash (/) then I can download the file.
Must be some firefox version thing
WCR said that it wouldn't affect their tours.
I took it to mean the ones they were promoting (though this has still been proved to be wrong) as other promoters - Vintage Trains Ltd, Steam Dreams and the Railway Touring Co have all cancelled tours.
Route knowledge is a big headache for special traffic. When EWS as it was had a massive mail and chart operation they had plenty of spare and rest day availability with good route knowledge. EWS and later DB cut back resources to match fewer and simpler freight contracts and in the process (and with ageing crews) lost lots of experienced steam men.
Outside of the South London and Bristol areas from where most of their steam operations start I wonder how many drivers and fireman they can pull together.
Its a self centering switch. Ie what ever position you switch it to it automatically releases back to the neutral position when you let go.
What they've done to prevent the system applying the brake, after the initial failure to cancel the AWS warning for the TSR, has nothing to do with the TPWS switch. The TPWS/ AWS electronics will still have been trying to put the brakes on.
I've a pretty clear idea what has been tampered with, which I'm not going to go into on here, but it's not something that you'll find in the cab of a modern traction unit.
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Reading the terms of the suspension notice, that does seem to be exactly it.
G0ORC
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After reading an awful lot of hot air on this thread, at last the voice of sanity.
I couldn't agree more with the sentiments expressed above, especially the bit about "old-hands". I have had personal experience where this was undoubtedly true.
I recollect that there were concerns shown by several companies regarding WCR and these go back many, many years (see various accident and incident reports) I would have thought that the signs were there that an increased auditing of their SMS was necessary. I may be mistaken but I'm sure that in the past I can recollect that some companies took a decision NOT to use their drivers for route conducting etc. after auditing their SMS. If my recollections are correct then that says more about WCR management than it does about the competence of their drivers.
My only thoughts are :-
1) What took them (NR) so long?
2) I'm very surprised that the same treatment was not meted out to DCR over the Stafford incident which was an appalling catalogue of incompetence both at driver, maintenance and management level. I suspect much of the culture that was within DCR is also prevalent within WCR.
From the suspension notice it appears NR were stopped doing an audit of WCR's SMS (and I find it incredible that such a thing could happen) and they ought to have been suspended for that alone. I am commenting without knowing the full politics of the case, but that, in my opinion, is tantamount to car driver refusing a breath test. You are automatically assumed guilty of drunken driving.
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Re DCR, I believe that they took steps to get their house in order following Stafford.
There was also a strong suggestion in the RAIB report that ORR's handling of their paperwork was poor, possibly to the extent of being a factor in the way DCR operated pre Stafford.
There was also a strong suggestion in the RAIB report that ORR's handling of their paperwork was poor, possibly to the extent of being a factor in the way DCR operated pre Stafford.
G0ORC
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Indeed, that's why I said "the culture that WAS within DCR......." DCR seem now to have their house in order, I agree.
As far as the ORR is concerned, that may or may not be the case. What the ORR can't be blamed for is the flagrant breach of any number of rules by maintenance staff and drivers during this incident.
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I completely agree, and will never understand why the personal consequences for the culpable individuals were so limited. However, it does seem from the outside to go a long way towards explaining the difference in approach to DCR as a company compared to WCRC.
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