Jonfun
Established Member
Were they invisible tickets??
-
Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
XC enforcing invisible reservations
- Thread starter embers25
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
markindurham
Member
- Joined
- 1 Nov 2011
- Messages
- 385
Having read through all this, I am still convinced that this is very wrong. Once a train has set off from its starting point, that should be it as far as seat reservations are concerned. I can see a test case going to Court at some point if this policy continues.
What would the legal grounds be for the case?
The only thing 'wrong' is the inconvenience. Getting on at Durham for a trip to Bristol only to get turfed out of my seat at Birmingham would certainly be an inconvenience, but I don't see how it could go to court.
I don't think seat reservations are really worth having a court case over, and don't think it's ever going to come to that...
TMR would be absolutely fine as long as there is a way to stop your seat getting reserved once you've sat in it. Say for the Durham-Bristol trip, they can get on at Durham and somehow reserve their seat to Bristol (maybe the guard can do it for them, maybe they scan a barcode on the back of the seat in front of them...), but I can't see a way of that being feasible with current limitations.It doesn't seem that hard - simply send an SMS with the seat number or, to get around people gaming the system, a pseudo-random code from the at seat display. Pretty much the same way the current TMR system works.I don't think seat reservations are really worth having a court case over, and don't think it's ever going to come to that...
Jonfun - I'm guessing you're asking 1e10 if the reservation labels contained details of where/when the seats were reserved, or if they were blank?
I don't think it's acceptable for blank reservation coupons to denote that seats are reserved for an unknown part of the journey and I don't think they should be allowed, but I'm not aware of XC doing this. I have heard of XC being unable to print labels, and therefore handwriting them (with 3-letter CRS codes e.g. 'BHM-SHF'), which is commendable when all else fails, but must have been time consuming!
CC 72100
Established Member
- Joined
- 23 Jan 2012
- Messages
- 3,777
This has been done before. I was on a HST before Easter where in one coach the electronic screens had failed, and so some paper labels had been used instead. Only problem was that the paper labels were completely blank, so just had 'RESERVED' on them in the normal style with no information printed below.
markindurham
Member
- Joined
- 1 Nov 2011
- Messages
- 385
Court? Easy. People objecting to getting moved out of their seats & getting stroppy. Escalates to them being thrown off train, probably with BTP involvement. Then summonsed for their behaviour under the by-laws. Off to Court & a hearing. At that point a precedent, one way or another, will be set. One day this will happen - the law of averages says it will. It will just take the right combination of circumstances. I have ceased to be amazed by what people can, and do, kick off about, even if booze or other substances aren't involved...
In any event, to me this is a very ill-thought out piece of tinkering by XC; I hope it doesn't spread to other TOCs
In any event, to me this is a very ill-thought out piece of tinkering by XC; I hope it doesn't spread to other TOCs
There is already plenty of case law dealing with issues of disorderly behaviour, which is all your example is. There would be no legal test of XC's ten-minute reservation system.
Ah, I don't know if they had anything printed/written on them. I didn't have a reservation myself so sat in coach B and only caught a glimpse of the cards as the train came into the platform.
There are various reasons as to why people may behave inappropriately on a train. Indeed, it could (and probably has) happened with existing reservations systems on trains.
Courts will get involved if there is any unruly behaviour, but I don't think that they will get involved with reservations policy. As far as I can ascertain, TMR is a perfectly legal concept. If there was an increase in BTP involvement on XC as a result of TMR (and I'm not aware of any evidence that this is the case), then perhaps XC would have to rethink, but even then I don't think it's in the remit of the courts.
Courts will only be concerned with what happened when laws or byelaws were broken and will have no remit or authority to involve themselves with policies that may or may not have contributed to whatever happened.
As much as I don't like TMR's, XC's reservation system or indeed XC itself, I don't believe that there is anything illegal about what they are doing.
gray1404
Established Member
I was on a VT service one December 28 from EUS to GLA having boarded at Wigan. It is full and standing, crowded to the point that there were 4 people unable to board the train behind me at Wigan and another load of people unable to board at Preston - even in 1st class where I was meant to have a reservation. The reservations were not working on the electronic display. When the service left departed Lancaster the TM downloaded them and said on the public address. "I will shortly be downloading the seat reservations. If you do not move from the seat that is reserved then you will be asked to leave the train." She would have had no basis whatsoever for that. I was so glad I was alighting at Oxenhlome. Disgusting behaviour on her part!
I suppose there could be a legal test if someone is accused of the byelaw offence of sitting in a seat reserved for someone else? Presumably it would be fairly simple if there was no notice of that seat being reserved at the time they sat in it though!
ValleyLines142
Established Member
I was on the 0700 Cardiff to Manchester this morning (220028), and I noticed the red stickers next to seat reservations saying how seats that are available at the moment may be reserved en-route and passengers may have to move if a seat is claimed.
I sat in a seat that was available and just to be on the safe side I booked a seat from Severn Tunnel Junction to Bristol using the TMR system, just in case I was evicted from my seat (rightfully so, might I add). Absolutely bizarrely of all the seats on the entire train that I was given it just so happened to be the one I was sitting in, which worked in my favour!
I do think XC need to promote the TMR system more, as I don't think many people know about it!
I sat in a seat that was available and just to be on the safe side I booked a seat from Severn Tunnel Junction to Bristol using the TMR system, just in case I was evicted from my seat (rightfully so, might I add). Absolutely bizarrely of all the seats on the entire train that I was given it just so happened to be the one I was sitting in, which worked in my favour!
I do think XC need to promote the TMR system more, as I don't think many people know about it!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
An improvement would be to allow the user to give a seat number which they could be allocated if not reserved. This would allow exactly this situation to be resolved (as well as allowing seat selection of a known seat).
Jonfun
Established Member
Nope - the title of this thread suggests that XC are enforcing invisible reservations, but I was a little confused, because by the sound of 1e10's post, reservations were very visible indeed?
And of course XC traincrew are able to print out reservation tickets. But it relies on knowing that the system is faulty, and having a working Avantix.
Over the past couple of months whilst travelling on XC with a seat reservation I have had to politely ask someone to move from "my" seat several times, I have been called "a selfish b*****d", been asked "where are we supposed to sit?", plus other unpleasant comments, some of the people were not aware of the overhead displays, thinking as there was no card on the seat there was no reservation.
I have also witnessed several "heated discussions" caused by XC's crazy (in my opinion)10min reservations.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I don't think they are crazy, but I do think they are badly implemented - in particular there should be a clearly-labelled unreserved coach, and it seems there is not.
It's only useful and effective for those who use it because hardly anyone knows about it.
If everyone used it, no-one would be better off as everyone would be back to the position they were before, only instead of first to sit down gets the seat, it would be first to text.
Yes, some Guards enforce completely invisible reservations, in that there is nothing to state that the seats are reserved (or even may be reserved), yet still expect people to move. That was described in the opening post and has been experienced by others. The thread has moved on to discuss other scenarios.
Yes the labels were visible, but we're none the wiser as to whether or not the reservations were on them on that occasion.
ValleyLines142
Established Member
You've just completely turned my words around? That's exactly what I've just said. No one knows about it SO THEY NEED TO ADVERTISE IT MORE.
yorkie said:
And so everyone gets a seat and there is none of this 'oh you're sat in my seat' confrontation, which is exactly what XC are trying to avoid. A happy ending all round obviously?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Barring compulsory reservations, where if there's no seat you aren't sold a ticket, can you see the obvious problem with that when it comes to XC?
ValleyLines142
Established Member
I'm not really understanding this? Can you elaborate further?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Not everyone can get a seat because of the heavy overcrowding on XC, whether it be by way of conventional reservations, TMR or just turning up and seeing if there are any. The only way to ensure a seat for everyone on board many XC services is compulsory reservation, i.e. turning away people from a service once all the seats are reserved. (Or up capacity, but that isn't on the agenda).
ValleyLines142
Established Member
Unfortunately that is down to the no limits on the number of passengers a train can hold (which I personally think is ridiculous, but I'll save that for another time).
I've been on quite a few Voyagers lately and I'm starting to see more of the red stickers regarding seat reservations. I'm also pleased to say that I'm not seeing as much 'turfing out of passenger's seats' as I have in the past. Perhaps XC are promoting their TMR system more and people are using it and understanding it. Which is great, as it isn't exactly rocket science.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
So you are in favour of compulsory reservation, I guess? It is an option, but it is one that is in many ways worse than overcrowding, as some people are prevented from travelling, particularly during disruption.
ValleyLines142
Established Member
Yes. It happens with coaches, so why should it not be the same for trains?
With regards to disruption, I see where you're coming from but when I say a limit, I mean a REASONABLE limit, not to the point where passengers are so squashed they struggle to breathe.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Because there is a solid safety reason for coaches which does not so much apply to trains.
Very rare, and easily avoidable by not taking the first couple of trains out in the event of disruption.
ValleyLines142
Established Member
I guess you do have to find that balance between how crowded and how un-crowded a train is.
I must admit, I do feel sorry for those people who do not have a seat reservation and try and sit anywhere, but to be fair they must be forgetting that they are travelling on a long distance train that only has 4 or 5 carriages, so they must be aware that there is a possibility there isn't any seats left. This is where TMR comes in.
I think FGW will introduce a similar scheme soon.
- Status