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Sadiq Kahn cancels NB4L/New Routemaster contract with Wrightbus

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Hophead

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I agree that it was a bit too strong to say they are 'unfit for purpose' but I was exaggerating in order to make a point. I don't believe there will be anything like a thousand in use in two years time, and probably none in five years time.
At the knock-down price they'll have to sell them for, Ensign or whoever may be able to shift a few, but most will probably end up stored just like the majority of the bendies.

But the Citaros weren't owned by TfL, so the mass withdrawal became a problem for the leasing companies (or were any directly owned by the operators?). Nevertheless, TfL will face another storm if they withdraw early hundreds of buses they actually own (but may also face criticism if they retain vehicles which are grossly inefficient).
 
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the101

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Hybrid technology that doesn't work effectively so they're essentially diesel vehicles?
There is nothing wrong with the hybrid technology. Where it has come unstuck is that in a politically-motivated attempt by Boris's administration to prove that the New RMs are substantially more fuel efficient than other hybrids, the batteries have been misused through over-extended periods of engine-off operation. That and that alone is what has caused all of the well-publicised battery problems, but I would never expect a scurrilous excuse for a newspaper like The Guardian to have looked into it to that level of detail.
 

507021

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I agree, I don't see the point in having such a bespoke bus design that is expensive and also limited as to where it can operate after its time in London has come to an end. I genuinely don't see the point in having an expensive Rolls Royce Ghost (Wrightbus New Routemaster) when a much cheaper Ford Focus (Alexander Dennis Enviro400) will do the job just as well, if not better.
 

Robertj21a

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But the Citaros weren't owned by TfL, so the mass withdrawal became a problem for the leasing companies (or were any directly owned by the operators?). Nevertheless, TfL will face another storm if they withdraw early hundreds of buses they actually own (but may also face criticism if they retain vehicles which are grossly inefficient).

At least Arriva owned all theirs.
 

Busaholic

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In what way are they "not fit for purpose"? You can argue until the cows come home about whether you *like* them or not, but as buses they do the job reasonably well, particularly now opening windows (proper ones, too, not hoppers) have been fitted.

I was quite prepared to 'like' them, actually, in the sense of their design, original ability to hop on/off, etc, although I was never going to be convinced that the price was worth it or by the spurious reasons given by Boris J for their development. I still 'like' aspects of their look, particularly from the offside and back, but I was remarkably unimpressed by the claustrophic top deck atmosphere (and this was February, so heat didn't come into it) and, later, by the ridiculous downstairs seating arrangements and incredibly hard seats. The old expression 'fur coat and no knickers' came to mind.:) I was also unimpressed on that first day by the customer assistant attempting to stop me leaving the bus when it had been immobile in Piccadilly traffic for a good five minutes.

The mpg have consistently been way under what was claimed to be possible too, this information having to be dragged out of TfL by a Freedom of Information request in the first place, although a little later when Boris's notoriously gnat-like attention span had shifted to other things the info became more readily available.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
At least Arriva owned all theirs.

First and Go-Ahead still have some on their books, I understand, so I would imagine very few, if any, were leased.
 

the101

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First and Go-Ahead still have some on their books, I understand, so I would imagine very few, if any, were leased.
:?

Most of them were leased, hence there being hundreds of them parked on various former airbases for years and Dawsonrentals seriously examining converting them into 40ft buses in a bid to get those it was lumbered with shifted.
 

randyrippley

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how easily could they be re-engineered to remove the second staircase and the rear doors?
 

WatcherZero

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Odds London will relax the 5 year age limit on buses so they can hang around the capital longer.
 

Robertj21a

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Odds London will relax the 5 year age limit on buses so they can hang around the capital longer.

Tenders are usually for 5 years, with extensions to 7 years. That same bus is then usually used again for at least another 5 year tender.
 

carlberry

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But the Citaros weren't owned by TfL, so the mass withdrawal became a problem for the leasing companies (or were any directly owned by the operators?). Nevertheless, TfL will face another storm if they withdraw early hundreds of buses they actually own (but may also face criticism if they retain vehicles which are grossly inefficient).

Whilst the bendies became a problem for the leasing/operating companies this immediately became a problem for TfL as it was clear that anything slightly odd that went into London had to pay for itself before the next mayor came along and chucked the toys out of the pram again. hence why all the Borisbuses are owned by TfL (and in a fairer society should have been recharged to Boris!).
 

Bald Rick

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"In July of last year, 300 London bus conductors were made redundant as part of plans to save £10m per year from the transport budget."

More DOO. Presumably the drivers went on strike?
 

Tetchytyke

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But the Citaros weren't owned by TfL, so the mass withdrawal became a problem for the leasing companies

And that is why TfL had to buy the Boris Buses. The leasing companies had their fingers burned with the bendybuses, and weren't prepared to be bitten again, so TfL had to buy them and lease them out (and force operators to use them through the tendering process, for that matter).
 

Deerfold

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"In July of last year, 300 London bus conductors were made redundant as part of plans to save £10m per year from the transport budget."

More DOO. Presumably the drivers went on strike?

They were effectively DOO with the "conductors" - these were not conductors in the traditional sense - they did not sell or even check tickets. Drivers on these new buses have no ticket checking responsibilities (unless someone boards with a bus saver ticket).

Where are you quoting that from, BTW?
 

Busaholic

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They were effectively DOO with the "conductors" - these were not conductors in the traditional sense - they did not sell or even check tickets. Drivers on these new buses have no ticket checking responsibilities (unless someone boards with a bus saver ticket).

Where are you quoting that from, BTW?

I don't think TfL ever referred to them as 'conductors' until the announcement that they were being phased out i.e. made redundant. They were 'customer assistants' or somesuch vague title until then.
 

Deerfold

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I don't think TfL ever referred to them as 'conductors' until the announcement that they were being phased out i.e. made redundant. They were 'customer assistants' or somesuch vague title until then.

Indeed - that's why I put "conductors" in quotes.
 

Bletchleyite

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I don't think TfL ever referred to them as 'conductors' until the announcement that they were being phased out i.e. made redundant. They were 'customer assistants' or somesuch vague title until then.

They were a very odd thing indeed - basically, to all intents and purposes, a human door.
 

ag51ruk

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They were effectively DOO with the "conductors" - these were not conductors in the traditional sense - they did not sell or even check tickets. Drivers on these new buses have no ticket checking responsibilities (unless someone boards with a bus saver ticket).

Where are you quoting that from, BTW?

The quote is from the Guardian, in the first post of this thread
 

fredk

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A pretty boring job, I'd have thought.

I remember all of them seemed to have an iPad which they were using most of the time. Just wondering if it was connected to the bus and part of the "dispatch" procedure?
 

Busaholic

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I remember all of them seemed to have an iPad which they were using most of the time. Just wondering if it was connected to the bus and part of the "dispatch" procedure?

It would be casting aspersions to say 'connected to YouTube more likely' so I won't.:) Unless the driver also had an iPad, and was in a position to use it, I don't follow that, but then I know next to nothing.
 

fredk

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It would be casting aspersions to say 'connected to YouTube more likely' so I won't.:) Unless the driver also had an iPad, and was in a position to use it, I don't follow that, but then I know next to nothing.

It could have been an app where they press a confirmation which shows in the drivers cab on the dash. I remember from the early design specification that "wifi" would be used instead of a bell for the conductor to give the driver the all clear.
 

Bletchleyite

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It could have been an app where they press a confirmation which shows in the drivers cab on the dash. I remember from the early design specification that "wifi" would be used instead of a bell for the conductor to give the driver the all clear.


You sure that's not that the bells are wireless (which they are)?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A pretty boring job, I'd have thought.


Indeed. A boring job only made vaguely useful by the poorly (or not at all) thought through layout of bus stops in London, which was essentially ignored in the days of proper RMs but hasn't been much improved recently.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

Busaholic

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You sure that's not that the bells are wireless (which they are)?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---



Indeed. A boring job only made vaguely useful by the poorly (or not at all) thought through layout of bus stops in London, which was essentially ignored in the days of proper RMs but hasn't been much improved recently.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Now now, can't have that about the layout of bus stops in RM days, which used to be given a lot of thought, not all of it in the pub. Seriously, it was a subject that engendered a lot of work involving local London boroughs, the Met Police and even the TGWU, as well as the lowly-placed muggins at 55 Broadway, later Grosvenor Place, in the special section devoted entirely to the subject, each stop having its own file card with all the details of its positioning, type of stop etc, dating back to WW2! I was briefly one of the muggins, dealing with West London, the area of London with which I am still least acquainted. Converting a route from RT or RM operation to one-person operation frequently meant a move of bus stop, shelter. layby, etc, sometimes to the other side of a junction. Admittedly, what 'we' wanted wasn't always possible, especially with some boroughs (the mention of the word Ealing still sends shivers down my spine).
 

Via Bank

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It could have been an app where they press a confirmation which shows in the drivers cab on the dash. I remember from the early design specification that "wifi" would be used instead of a bell for the conductor to give the driver the all clear.

Why would they do that? It would run out of battery, it could crash/behave oddly, the fact you'd be tying an essential safety system to a wifi network would be problematic, etc.

They did have a button to say "go" to the driver (in fact I believe it released a brake that was applied once the door was opened). But it was part of the bus, in the usual place near where the conductor's cabinet was.
 

Bletchleyite

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Now now, can't have that about the layout of bus stops in RM days, which used to be given a lot of thought, not all of it in the pub. Seriously, it was a subject that engendered a lot of work involving local London boroughs, the Met Police and even the TGWU, as well as the lowly-placed muggins at 55 Broadway, later Grosvenor Place, in the special section devoted entirely to the subject, each stop having its own file card with all the details of its positioning, type of stop etc, dating back to WW2! I was briefly one of the muggins, dealing with West London, the area of London with which I am still least acquainted. Converting a route from RT or RM operation to one-person operation frequently meant a move of bus stop, shelter. layby, etc, sometimes to the other side of a junction. Admittedly, what 'we' wanted wasn't always possible, especially with some boroughs (the mention of the word Ealing still sends shivers down my spine).

Interesting, as my opinion remains that in much of central London it is decidedly sub-optimal. One thing that would provide massive improvement would be moving stops to traffic lights with a box junction immediately before the lights so that the bus can always get out at the lights and not be held up by queues.
 
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