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What Would a Good System for Working out Fares Look Like?

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deltic

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For the same reason that caps exist now - to encourage people to use public transport. Without a cap there comes a point where it's cheaper to use a private vehicle.

Most people who benefit from caps are travelling in inner London where there is no alternative to public transport and are often clogging up buses/tubes with very short hop journeys. Would Victoria tube upgrade be needed if not quite so many people came out of the mainline station and did one stop journeys to St James Park etc or at Waterloo and London Bridge who get the bus to just across the river. The number of people travelling one or two stops on a bus never ceases to amaze me - some will undoubtedly have mobility problems - but many others dont.
 
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DynamicSpirit

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The people who are going to benefit most from mileage based pricing.

I don't think that's quite right. deltic seems to be talking about people who are getting off a train - so the short hop on the bus/tube only forms a part of their journey. I would imagine most of those people hold travelcards and therefore don't pay anything extra to use the tube/bus for the short distance (which would be why they don't bother walking it!). Mileage-based pricing wouldn't make much difference to that if they continued to buy travelcards - although it could make a small difference if it gave people the option to buy a season ticket from home just as far as the London terminal that didn't include tube/bus travel and was cheaper than a travelcard (offhand I don't think that's currently possible, if you're coming from somewhere in London, though I'm not completely certain).

Again, if anyone on pay-as-you-go does that, mileage-based pricing wouldn't make much difference. Right now, getting on the tube would cost them the difference between a national-rail-only fare and a rail+tube fare (typically around a pound). On a mileage-based scheme, they'd also pay a bit more because they'd be travelling further. But I imagine the people on pay-as-you-go would tend to the ones who are already walking! :)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Are there really that many exceptions and special cases? The anomalies of long journeys being cheaper most commonly are a result of taking a long route for a journey that could be much shorter if you went through Zone 1.

I believe there are - although annoyingly, I've managed to lose the link to a webpage that explains all the rules. I do recall looking at the page a few months ago and thinking 'eeek!'. I would say it's telling that TfL - as far as I'm aware - no longer publish a list of Pay-as-you-go zone fares on their main Oyster fares page (or if they have still got it there, they've hidden it beyond my ability to find it!)
 
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30mog

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The difference being that the negative balance could be several hundred pounds.

Fair point. But aren't there always cases of TOCS chasing people via the courts for £100s in unpaid fares?

And it maybe the deal with a national rail smart card might be more like you can't start a journey without at 50 or 100 miles banked.

In answer to the individual who asked me how it would be effective when permitted routes can vary a lot in miles. Maybe the card readers would work better on the train than the platform. Practicality issues there I know, but doesn't everything have them at first?
 

Haywain

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Maybe the card readers would work better on the train than the platform. Practicality issues there I know, but doesn't everything have them at first?
We appear to be back to here:
Perhaps a smartcard system that required full payment in advance and touching in and out at the start/end of the journey and on the train during the journey? Sounds a touch complex to me, to achieve much of what our fares system already does.
 

yorkie

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And it maybe the deal with a national rail smart card might be more like you can't start a journey without at 50 or 100 miles banked.
I will firmly object to your proposals; what if I just want to travel from York to Church Fenton?
In answer to the individual who asked me how it would be effective when permitted routes can vary a lot in miles. Maybe the card readers would work better on the train than the platform. Practicality issues there I know, but doesn't everything have them at first?
How many readers would you need to have to cope with a large group of passengers boarding a train at a busy station? Would you have a reader at every seat? If they were just in the vestibules, the affect on dwell times would be unacceptable.

These are 'solutions' looking for a problem to solve, yet they create more problems!

How much would your price per mile be, anyway? And what fares would you offer from, say, Sheffield to York?
 

Bletchleyite

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How many readers would you need to have to cope with a large group of passengers boarding a train at a busy station? Would you have a reader at every seat? If they were just in the vestibules, the affect on dwell times would be unacceptable.

Would it? Oyster readers do not cause unacceptable dwell times on London buses. Indeed, Oyster has more or less eliminated dwell compared with most people purchasing paper tickets from the driver.

On the railway, though, I'd expect them to be on platforms as they are in the Netherlands.
 

yorkie

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Would it? Oyster readers do not cause unacceptable dwell times on London buses.
By bus standards, dwell times are not unacceptable. But I'm not sure Crossrail will be able to run at 24tph if people are expected to tap in when boarding, and you have hundreds of people boarding in the peaks?
Indeed, Oyster has more or less eliminated dwell compared with most people purchasing paper tickets from the driver.
There was a significant dwell for me yesterday, only to be turned away as it became full.
On the railway, though, I'd expect them to be on platforms as they are in the Netherlands.
So back to mog30 to say how such a system can differentiate between which route you take? Also, a PAYG system is totally unworkable for longer distance journeys anyway.

We have some ideas in this thread but no-one can say what fares they actually propose or how it would actually work.
 

Bletchleyite

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We have some ideas in this thread but no-one can say what fares they actually propose or how it would actually work.

Once again, it is impossible for us to quote meaningful actual fares, assuming the proposal is to be revenue-neutral, as we simply do not have access to sales data in order to establish what they should be. We can only propose systems, not the actual rates (e.g. the per-km rate or the "exponent" figure itself).
 

FenMan

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The network cutbacks by Beeching etc. has resulted in many rail journeys being via, sometime quite extreme, dog-leg routes whilst maintaining competitive journey times. TOC pricers have different approaches to pricing such journeys. A couple of examples:-

Newbury - Southampton
By road, Newbury is 38 miles from Southampton
NRE offers itineraries via Reading, which is 47 miles from Southampton by road.
But Reading - Southampton fares are significantly cheaper than Newbury - Southampton fares.

Blackwater - Waterloo
The shortest rail route is the dog-leg via Guildford (43 miles).
Farnborough Main station, 3 miles from Blackwater, but on a different line, is 33 miles from Waterloo.
The distance by road to London is pretty much identical for both.
Should Blackwater passengers be asked to pay 10/33rds more than Farnborough Main passengers when travelling to Waterloo?
Fortunately for me, the SWT pricers don't discriminate against Blackwater passengers - the fares are much the same.

How would the pricing proposals in this thread take account of dog-leg routes such as these?
 

DynamicSpirit

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The network cutbacks by Beeching etc. has resulted in many rail journeys being via, sometime quite extreme, dog-leg routes whilst maintaining competitive journey times. TOC pricers have different approaches to pricing such journeys. A couple of examples:-

Newbury - Southampton
By road, Newbury is 38 miles from Southampton
NRE offers itineraries via Reading, which is 47 miles from Southampton by road.
But Reading - Southampton fares are significantly cheaper than Newbury - Southampton fares.

Blackwater - Waterloo
The shortest rail route is the dog-leg via Guildford (43 miles).
Farnborough Main station, 3 miles from Blackwater, but on a different line, is 33 miles from Waterloo.
The distance by road to London is pretty much identical for both.
Should Blackwater passengers be asked to pay 10/33rds more than Farnborough Main passengers when travelling to Waterloo?
Fortunately for me, the SWT pricers don't discriminate against Blackwater passengers - the fares are much the same.

How would the pricing proposals in this thread take account of dog-leg routes such as these?

Easy! :)

Assuming your mileages are correct:

  • Newbury is priced according to the distance via Reading (or more strictly via Reading West) because that is the shortest route.
  • Farnborough main and Farnborough North are considered part of a station group, and the shortest route by distance from Blackwater to London involves walking between the two, and is priced as such. Since under my earlier suggestion, any route with a mileage no more than around 20% more than the shortest route is considered a reasonable route, going via Guildford is fine (43/36 is less than 1.2) - and is of course what I'd expect most people would do.
I do though suspect there are other examples - especially for shorter journeys - where the definition of reasonable route would need to be made more generous for this kind of scheme to work.
 
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yorkie

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Did you miss post #69 in this thread?
That's your methodology, but what are your figures? If you want me to do the sums, then you'd need to let me know what all those variables are for each of the journeys. To start with, let's take York to Sheffield. The shortest route is via Pontefract at 46 ¼ miles. Trains via Pontefract are typically Pacers. It's 63 ¾ on XC via Leeds & Wakefield Westgate.
 

Bletchleyite

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Yorkie, out of interest do you believe the fares system can be improved in some way, if so in what way? Or do you believe the present system (perhaps with a small tweak or two) is the best balance?
 

Haywain

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Once again, it is impossible for us to quote meaningful actual fares, assuming the proposal is to be revenue-neutral, as we simply do not have access to sales data in order to establish what they should be. We can only propose systems, not the actual rates (e.g. the per-km rate or the "exponent" figure itself).

Nobody is asking for actual fares, but for meaningful theoretical fares that indicate clearly how each proposed system would work in reality. This gives the ability to compare short, mid-length and long journeys with the current system. Where the proposed system is mileage based (or kilometric in your case, although that's exactly the same thing) in the unlikely event that such a system came to pass the fare level would then be set to achieve revenue neutral status - it would simply be a certain percentage higher or lower.
 

DynamicSpirit

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That's your methodology, but what are your figures? If you want me to do the sums, then you'd need to let me know what all those variables are for each of the journeys. To start with, let's take York to Sheffield. The shortest route is via Pontefract at 46 ¼ miles. Trains via Pontefract are typically Pacers. It's 63 ¾ on XC via Leeds & Wakefield Westgate.

I did put in a set of values for the variables to give suggested figures for different mileages (although I noted that you could adjust those values). And it's not at all hard to work out the figures from the values I gave in that post.

With those values, 46.25 miles would give a return fare of £24.13. However, the Pontefract route has such a poor service that I'd expect any reasonable implementation of that scheme to use a low quality factor. Let's say you make the quality 0.75 (which is the value I guessed might be right for the poorest routes). That would multiply the return fare by 0.75 giving £18.09 (coincidentally that's remarkably close to the current fare of £17.90)

However, since that fare has a 'poor quality route' discount, it would seem reasonable for that to be a specific 'via Pontefract Baghill' ticket. If you want to go on the faster trains, you'd therefore calculate a ticket price based on the next shortest route, which I think would be via Doncaster. I don't know the mileage, but I'm going to guess around 50 miles, which would make the fare £25.65, with via Leeds being considered a reasonable alternative route for that ticket (especially since some via Leeds trains are direct anyway).

That price is higher than the current fare - I think that may reflect Yorkshire being an area where current fares are generally cheaper than other parts of the country. In my distance scheme, if it was considered desirable for that situation to continue, you could use the geographical factor in the formula to scale all fares in that area down by a certain proportion.
 
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MikeWh

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I believe there are - although annoyingly, I've managed to lose the link to a webpage that explains all the rules. I do recall looking at the page a few months ago and thinking 'eeek!'. I would say it's telling that TfL - as far as I'm aware - no longer publish a list of Pay-as-you-go zone fares on their main Oyster fares page (or if they have still got it there, they've hidden it beyond my ability to find it!)

TfL decided to stop publishing it because updating was too time consuming. I have a page for adult single fares on my site. I have recently completed a project to automate gathering the information and new pages covering all passenger categories will be appearing soon.
 

rf_ioliver

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Split the map into cells, each border between 2 cells has a crossing price set according to how busy/popular it is. Your ticket is valid on any route where the total crossing prices is less than that of the main route.

Overlapping cells as well, otherwise you get the dreaded boundary problem where travel in an entier area might be cheaper than crossing a boundary between two very close stations

t.

Ian
 

Deerfold

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Overlapping cells as well, otherwise you get the dreaded boundary problem where travel in an entier area might be cheaper than crossing a boundary between two very close stations

t.

Ian

Or have the minimum price be 2 cells.
 

FenMan

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Easy! :)

Assuming your mileages are correct:

  • Newbury is priced according to the distance via Reading (or more strictly via Reading West) because that is the shortest route.
You miss my point, the only reason Newbury is further from Southampton by rail, yet closer by car, is because the Newbury - Southampton direct line was closed, creating the dog-leg route via Reading West. GWR have chosen to price tickets from Newbury at a premium (presumably to avoid the risk of Reading passengers spotting a good value ticket), but this makes a Newbury-Southampton journey by rail uncompetitive compared with other travel modes.

  • Farnborough main and Farnborough North are considered part of a station group, and the shortest route by distance from Blackwater to London involves walking between the two, and is priced as such. Since under my earlier suggestion, any route with a mileage no more than around 20% more than the shortest route is considered a reasonable route, going via Guildford is fine (43/36 is less than 1.2) - and is of course what I'd expect most people would do.
I do though suspect there are other examples - especially for shorter journeys - where the definition of reasonable route would need to be made more generous for this kind of scheme to work.

Several points:-

1. The Farnborough Stations Group was abolished several years ago.

2. Most Blackwater to London tickets are priced factoring in the dog-leg nature of the journey. This means prices via Ascot or Guildford are competitive with nearby stations on other lines e.g. Camberley and Farnborough Main, however I doubt a walk between Farnborough North and Farnborough Main is assumed. Taking that route is often more expensive, especially so at peak travel times where the price premium is 63% or, in money terms, £18.90 (I hope no-one is dumb enough to buy such a ticket, but there may be a few!).

3. The difference between the mileages to Waterloo is 43/33 (not 36), a 30% difference. I wouldn't be too chuffed if Blackwater - London tickets were to attract a 30% price premium over Farnborough Main or Camberley fares.
 

Bookd

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I have a thought, although I admit difficult to work out.
In the case of bus fares, in the regulated era, there were often several routes between two points but the traffic commissioners ensured that the fare from A to B was the same regardless of route. On the shortest route the fares would increase by stages, pretty much on a mileage basis, and this would also apply on longer routes until the A to B fare was reached when that fare would become the maximum. When routes diverged the table was arranged so that the shorter fares would never exceed the point to point maximum.
Such a system would avoid the need for splitting ticketing but in the much more complicated railway network it would be very difficult to work out from scratch.
 

najaB

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In the case of bus fares, in the regulated era, there were often several routes between two points but the traffic commissioners ensured that the fare from A to B was the same regardless of route.
That's just the current system with all tickets routed 'Any permitted'.
 

sheff1

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That's just the current system with all tickets routed 'Any permitted'.

Well yes, but the important part of the post is:

On the shortest route the fares would increase by stages, pretty much on a mileage basis, and this would also apply on longer routes until the A to B fare was reached when that fare would become the maximum. When routes diverged the table was arranged so that the shorter fares would never exceed the point to point maximum.

So if an Any Permitted ticket from A to B was valid via C then it would mean:

* the fares from A to C and from C to B would be capped so that they did not individually exceed the A to B fare;

whilst, at the same time:

* the sum of the fares from A to C and from C to B would at least equal the A to B fare.

Thus removing the need for buying long or splitting.
 

Deerfold

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Well yes, but the important part of the post is:



So if an Any Permitted ticket from A to B was valid via C then it would mean:

* the fares from A to C and from C to B would be capped so that they did not individually exceed the A to B fare;

whilst, at the same time:

* the sum of the fares from A to C and from C to B would at least equal the A to B fare.

Thus removing the need for buying long or splitting.

That sounds very difficult to do on our mesh of a rail network.
 

Bletchleyite

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That sounds very difficult to do on our mesh of a rail network.

Indeed - that's why a system based in some way on values (mileages, or notional mileages) assigned to sections of line (rather than journeys) is the only way to be sure of no anomalies. You would get rid of "Any Permitted" but de-facto a ticket for a more expensive route would be valid on a cheaper one, which is essentially the same thing.

Has anyone yet posted an anomaly-free way of doing off-peak? Other than "everything as Advances calculated per-train" I can't think of one.

The problem is that all the simple definitions cause anomalies:-

1. "This train is peak"? - Still peak when it gets to Glasgow at 9pm?
2. "This section of line is peak at this time"? - Split to save money once you're past it?
3. "Departing this station is peak at this time"? - Split to save money once you're past it, again?

Any others?

The only way I can think of regulating it totally fairly is that using the above "tariff kilometres on a section of line" thing you have various levels for a given section of line based on peakness of that section, then you have to calculate and sum them for each train individually - hence a need for all non-Anytime tickets to be Advances to avoid anomalies.
 
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DynamicSpirit

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[/LIST]
You miss my point, the only reason Newbury is further from Southampton by rail, yet closer by car, is because the Newbury - Southampton direct line was closed, creating the dog-leg route via Reading West. GWR have chosen to price tickets from Newbury at a premium (presumably to avoid the risk of Reading passengers spotting a good value ticket), but this makes a Newbury-Southampton journey by rail uncompetitive compared with other travel modes.

I think the issue you bring up here is really whether mileage-based pricing should be on mileage as the crow files or mileage along the shortest rail route. Both possibilities have advantages and disadvantages. In the scheme I proposed, I used 'along the rail route' and from what you're saying that seems to be what GWR have chosen to do as well in that case. The disadvantage is - as your example demonstrates - it makes rail less competitive on price if the rail route is circuitous. However, I think that's still the least bad option. If you price by 'as the crow flies' distance then the system will be full of absurd anomalies (Think 'Newbury to Andover' or 'Alton to Winchester'), which I think would make it unworkable. Maybe you could get some compromise -something like, distance used for the fare calculation = (4/5) * rail distance + (1/5) * 'as the crow flies' distance, to give some nod to the problem caused by gaps in the network. (It'd take some effort to figure out how workable that would be in practice - whether you could do it without too many anomalies. But maybe that'd work).

Sadly, I fear you probably have to accept that gaps in the network mean rail just isn't a sensible option for many journeys. (Although Southampton to Newbury is would be more competitive if fares generally were lower - we can but hope Government support in and investment in the railways might eventually make that possible).

I don't think I missed the point about the Beeching cuts by the way. I didn't comment on it because I don't think the fact that there used to be a Newbury-Southampton line in the distant past has any bearing on what the fare should be today. You calculate the fare today based on the network as it is today, not on the network as it was 60 years ago.

[/LIST]
Several points:-

1. The Farnborough Stations Group was abolished several years ago.

Sorry, I should've been clearer. I wasn't trying to claim that group existed now. I was saying that, in my mileage-scheme, they would be considered as a group. [Because the lines cross there and in principle interchange can be made by walking between them, even if in practice few would choose to do that]

[/LIST]
2. Most Blackwater to London tickets are priced factoring in the dog-leg nature of the journey. This means prices via Ascot or Guildford are competitive with nearby stations on other lines e.g. Camberley and Farnborough Main, however I doubt a walk between Farnborough North and Farnborough Main is assumed. Taking that route is often more expensive, especially so at peak travel times where the price premium is 63% or, in money terms, £18.90 (I hope no-one is dumb enough to buy such a ticket, but there may be a few!).

Interesting point there. My formula did feature a 'quality factor' allowing you to reduce the price if the line you're travelling on is low quality. I'd assumed it would be applied for lines that are poor quality in absolute terms (very slow, poor rolling stock, infrequent trains - think Middlesbrough to Whitby or Inveress to Wick). However, maybe there is a case for using it in places where lines are good in absolute terms, but poor compared to neighbouring lines - which I think is the case for Camberley-London.

[/LIST]
3. The difference between the mileages to Waterloo is 43/33 (not 36), a 30% difference. I wouldn't be too chuffed if Blackwater - London tickets were to attract a 30% price premium over Farnborough Main or Camberley fares.

My 36 came from adding your figures of 33 miles London to Farnborough and 3 miles Farnborough to Blackwater to get the notional shortest distance from Blackwater to London.
 
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FenMan

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My formula did feature a 'quality factor' allowing you to reduce the price if the line you're travelling on is low quality. I'd assumed it would be applied for lines that are poor quality in absolute terms (very slow, poor rolling stock, infrequent trains - think Middlesbrough to Whitby or Inveress to Wick). However, maybe there is a case for using it in places where lines are good in absolute terms, but poor compared to neighbouring lines - which I think is the case for Camberley-London.

Back in the day, Camberley - London tickets were significantly cheaper, reflecting the slow service. But SWT no longer discount fares from Camberley, despite the service becoming even worse. Camberley's usage stats reflect this poor value, amazingly enough, with a growth level - up 7% since 2010/11 - well below that at Blackwater - up 24% over the same period. Blackwater now attracts 62,000 more passengers p.a. than Camberley - ten years ago it was the other way round.

I would have included the stats for Farnborough Main, but comparisions are not meaningful due to a change in the methodology for splitting the usage numbers between Main and North.

My take is that the market-based pricing model works for Blackwater and that SWT's decision to drop the Camberley - London discount factor i.e. reverting more or less to a mileage pricing model, has impacted growth and, quite possibly, the amount of revenue generated from Camberley passengers.
 
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PeterC

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I have been having a place with some milages from an old timetable and have come to the conclusion that however you price rail fares you are equally likely to end up with anomalies.
 
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