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What am I being Prosecuted for?

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jon0844

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Or you could look at the photo card.

Yeah, but I like to have important documents (inc passport, drivers licence, even store cards) stored online for when I don't have them with me. Like being abroad on holiday over Christmas and wanting to renew my season online.
 
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najaB

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An alternatuve, which I would favour, is that the photocard is read by a card reader so that no mistake can occur.
I would like to see that too, but that'll be a long time in coming unless existing TVMs can be retrofitted with barcode readers.
 

DaleCooper

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I store a lot of useful information on Google Keep. Security isn't fantastic so I don't recommend PIN numbers or anything

Yeah, but I like to have important documents (inc passport, drivers licence, even store cards) stored online for when I don't have them with me. Like being abroad on holiday over Christmas and wanting to renew my season online.

Don't you worry about identity theft?
 

jon0844

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Don't you worry about identity theft?
I don't keep everything on there. There are other secure methods of storing data too. Plus my phone is encrypted, with fingerprint security, my Google account has two step verification etc.
 

cmovcc

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where does it say the photocard number has to match that on a season ticket?

it's not in the conditions of carriage (or whatever they're called these days) as I've just read through them...

plenty of references to needing a photocard with your season ticket, but there's absolutely nothing about the number on it needing to match the season ticket

my photocard number has never matched those on my season tickets as the photocard has two extra digits the printers in ticket offices can't seem to handle
 

DaleCooper

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where does it say the photocard number has to match that on a season ticket?

it's not in the conditions of carriage (or whatever they're called these days) as I've just read through them...

plenty of references to needing a photocard with your season ticket, but there's absolutely nothing about the number on it needing to match the season ticket

my photocard number has never matched those on my season tickets as the photocard has two extra digits the printers in ticket offices can't seem to handle
Did you see post #29

The letters I get each month emphasize that I must enter the photocard number on both tickets. This is further printed on each ticket (see attached).

Valid only with Photocard No.

If it said,

Enter a number, any number

I could understand it.
 

cmovcc

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no I didn't

my gold card does have that insert in the corner, however I have had plenty of weekly and monthly seasons that simply don't say that, such as the one I've attached (sorry for poor quality, it's faded quite a bit)
 

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najaB

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...however I have had plenty of weekly and monthly seasons that simply don't say that, such as the one I've attached (sorry for poor quality, it's faded quite a bit)
Was that issued from a ticket office or a TVM?
 

DaleCooper

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no I didn't

my gold card does have that insert in the corner, however I have had plenty of weekly and monthly seasons that simply don't say that, such as the one I've attached (sorry for poor quality, it's faded quite a bit)

It does have "Photocard No." top right.
 

cmovcc

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always a ticket office, I've never bought a season from a TVM

yeah, it does say photocard no., but it doesn't say "valid only with photocard no", and the terms and conditions don't say this either
 

cmovcc

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first line:

> This information is to help you get the most from your Season Ticket. It does not affect your statutory rights, or replace, form part of, or modify in any way, the relating to Season Tickets. A copy of the 'National Rail Conditions of Travel' is available from staffed ticket offices.

that website does not form the terms, the NRCOT do, as stated on the back of the ticket, and as stated in notices plastered over most ticket offices

to be honest I'm surprised no-one has noticed this hole in the terms before
 
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furlong

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to be honest I'm surprised no-one has noticed this hole in the terms before

Yet another ambiguity arising from the dumbing down of the Conditions of Travel?

Old wording:
If the use of a Season Ticket or Railcard requires you to carry a photocard, the Season Ticket (unless it is an Electronic Ticket) or Railcard must show the photocard serial number.

No argument there.

New wording:
When a Ticket is purchased on behalf of an organisation, business or similar entity, it may be used by any person employed by that organisation, business or similar entity unless otherwise shown on the Ticket by means of a person’s name, photocard number or other identifying means. In such cases it may only be used by the person identified on the Ticket.

No argument if purchased under those circumstances.

You must show and, if asked to do so by the staff of a Train Company, hand over for inspection your Ticket and any Railcard, photocard or other form of personal identification which your Ticket requires.

A Season Ticket must be supported by a photocard which bears a true likeness of the user.

So for the tickets that do not have the text printed on them, it relies on an implicit interpretation of "supported by." followed by "which" (i.e. meaning "which additionally") instead of "that", together with any text in the version of the season ticket terms you were given at the time of purchase.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So questions for kaygee276 are whether the machine you used explains it is only valid if the number matches and whether the ticket has such text printed on it or not.

Where does the purchaser agree to an unambiguous condition that the numbers have to match? Just implicitly now because it's "obvious" they need to do so?
 

Sprinter153

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He was such a jobsworth...

Sorry but you lose all credibility and sympathy when you use that word. :roll:
I suspect from the way your post was written that you had a bad attitude throughout the proceedings and failed the 'attitude test'.

If you put your photocard number in correctly in the first place, which is your mistake, not the RPI's, you wouldn't be facing prosecution.
 

kaygee276

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Sprinter153, as I have outlined previously I was civil to him.
I was not rude nor vulgar. I wasn't happy about the situation, but who would be if they were in my shoes?
His lack of explanation or discussion meant it was like interacting with an automaton who did not deviate from his path. Hence I used the term 'jobs worth'. There was zero conversational interaction during the time he spoke to me.
When you are in a public facing role like his, and acting as the face of the railway company, I believe that most people would expect a level of humanity when being dealt with. My experience was not like this at all.
By the way, I'm a woman, not that it makes a difference :) I keep seeing me referred to a 'he' or 'him' :D

Also to clarify, when I bought the ticket at the machine, it did not reject the number I entered, it let me continue through to payment.
In the world of technological capability that we live in, and identity scrutiny that we see every day in our lives, it is surprising there is no second level of verification at the point of typing in your photo card number.
 

philthetube

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Sprinter153, as I have outlined previously I was civil to him.
I was not rude nor vulgar. I wasn't happy about the situation, but who would be if they were in my shoes?
His lack of explanation or discussion meant it was like interacting with an automaton who did not deviate from his path. Hence I used the term 'jobs worth'. There was zero conversational interaction during the time he spoke to me.
When you are in a public facing role like his, and acting as the face of the railway company, I believe that most people would expect a level of humanity when being dealt with. My experience was not like this at all.
By the way, I'm a woman, not that it makes a difference :) I keep seeing me referred to a 'he' or 'him' :D

Also to clarify, when I bought the ticket at the machine, it did not reject the number I entered, it let me continue through to payment.
In the world of technological capability that we live in, and identity scrutiny that we see every day in our lives, it is surprising there is no second level of verification at the point of typing in your photo card number.

Someone elses fault then?

I assume you mean that the machine should check it against your credit card? Are you sure you really want that?
 

najaB

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Also to clarify, when I bought the ticket at the machine, it did not reject the number I entered, it let me continue through to payment.
In the world of technological capability that we live in, and identity scrutiny that we see every day in our lives, it is surprising there is no second level of verification at the point of typing in your photo card number.
What do you propose it verifies it against?
 

jon0844

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no I didn't

my gold card does have that insert in the corner, however I have had plenty of weekly and monthly seasons that simply don't say that, such as the one I've attached (sorry for poor quality, it's faded quite a bit)

Good luck writing on a random Photocard ID number and then claiming nobody said it had to match the actual number of the photocard you were carrying.

By all means post your results here, but give us a heads up so we can get the popcorn ready.
 

Paul Kelly

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What do you propose it verifies it against?
Either:
  • The season ticket database (I'm sure I've heard that some TVMs can link up to the back office season ticket database system used in the booking office)
or
  • The number could include check digits like a passport number or IBAN bank account number, giving a high probability that a randomly wrong number would fail the check
 

najaB

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Either:
  • The season ticket database (I'm sure I've heard that some TVMs can link up to the back office season ticket database system used in the booking office)
or
  • The number could include check digits like a passport number or IBAN bank account number, giving a high probability that a randomly wrong number would fail the check
The first option is feasible but significantly increases overheads. The second option requires that everyone gets a new photocard.
 

DynamicSpirit

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The first option is feasible but significantly increases overheads. The second option requires that everyone gets a new photocard.

The second option wouldn't really be hard to do. Just have a period of a year or so when both old and new photocards are valid, and require that anyone buying a ticket or railcard whose validity extends beyond that transition period get a new-style photocard at the same time (if they don't already have one). At the end of that period, the old cards become invalid. I wouldn't be surprised if there are other security features that could be incorporated into a new photocard at the same time.

You probably ideally need people to renew photocards every so often in any case to make sure that photos remain reasonably up-to-date.
 

DaleCooper

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At what point in evolution did human beings lose the ability to read a number on a card, type that number into a machine and check it's correct before pressing enter?
 
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Darandio

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At what point in evolution did human beings lose the ability to read a number on a card, type that number into a machine and check it's correct before pressing enter?

Only at any point when it's rail related, it seems. Banking, some sort of reward card or anything else, no problem.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Only at any point when it's rail related, it seems. Banking, some sort of reward card or anything else, no problem.

In my experience, people quite often get numbers wrong in banking. The difference is that, in banking, there are sufficient check digits etc. that if you get the number wrong, it's virtually guaranteed that the entire transaction will be immediately rejected[1], causing you to fix the problem. In most online things, the numbers will also be displayed back to you before you confirm, giving you an extra chance to check them (I don't know if rail ticket machines do that for photocard numbers?)

[1] Unless of course, the number in question is the amount ;)
 

najaB

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In most online things, the numbers will also be displayed back to you before you confirm, giving you an extra chance to check them (I don't know if rail ticket machines do that for photocard numbers?)
Yes, the number is displayed on the screen.
 

rs101

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So for the tickets that do not have the text printed on them, it relies on an implicit interpretation of "supported by." followed by "which" (i.e. meaning "which additionally") instead of "that", together with any text in the version of the season ticket terms you were given at the time of purchase.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So questions for kaygee276 are whether the machine you used explains it is only valid if the number matches and whether the ticket has such text printed on it or not.

Where does the purchaser agree to an unambiguous condition that the numbers have to match? Just implicitly now because it's "obvious" they need to do so?

Doesn't British consumer law forbid the addition of restrictive clauses after the transaction? So the extra restriction printed on the ticket (requirement for the number to match) is only applicable if the purchaser is advised of it beforehand. It would need to be in the published t&c of the TOC (or NCRoT),
 
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