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Woking weekend day travelcard restrictions

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AnkleBoots

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I bought a Super Off Peak day travelcard from Woking ticket office yesterday and the staff said that I could not use it to come back before 6:30pm. This seems surprising for a weekend.

I then played with the ticket machine to find out more and it seems that this restriction only applies from Waterloo or Clapham or Vauxhall.

To get round this could I have boarded at Waterloo eg at 5pm on a train stopping at Surbiton, get off and on the same train there, and would be able to honestly tell the Woking barrier people that I had boarded at Surbiton? Or is this fraud.

Thanks
 
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globetrotter

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This seems to be correct :

Restriction Code: UR

APPLICABLE DAYS

Saturday, Sunday & Public
Holidays

OUTWARD AND RETURN TRAVEL

If boarding at the stations
below, not valid on trains
departing:

London Terminals: 04:30-10:59
& 16:30-19:00

Vauxhall: 04:30-11:05 &
16:03-18:35

Queenstown Road: 04:30-11:05_&
16:03-18:35

Clapham Junction: 04:30-11:05
& 16:09-18:40

Any other station in London
Zones 1-6 not listed above:
04:30-10:59


Presumably you could travel by District Line to Wimbledon and return from there, as you then would not be "boarding" at any of the stations with PM restrictions.
 

jon0844

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This reminds me of when FCC introduced the evening peak and applied it to Travelcards (or tried to). The trick would be to alight and reboard outside the restricted area, as long as that was within the TC zones. On the GN route this could be Oakleigh Park or something.

I think they tried to make conditions to get around this but I have no idea how successful they were, or how many people weren't allowed through (manual) barrier checks back then.

I recall even now you get warned (GTR) you may get a penalty fare when they can only excess you.

Sent from my Vivo 6 using Tapatalk
 

yorkie

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If you board at a non-barred station, you're valid.

It's unclear whether you can alight from a train and re-board the same one.

But, for sure, boarding a train you were not on previously, ie. getting a train a few minutes ahead and waiting for the next one, is legit.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
To get round this could I have boarded at Waterloo eg at 5pm on a train stopping at Surbiton, get off and on the same train there, and would be able to honestly tell the Woking barrier people that I had boarded at Surbiton? Or is this fraud.
That's perfectly valid.
 

miami

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Is the ticket valid for Waterloo to Clapham in those evening times? Or indeed Clapham to Olympia? I.e does the restriction apply to the travelcard part?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I recall even now you get warned (GTR) you may get a penalty fare when they can only excess you.

Sent from my Vivo 6 using Tapatalk

A train company acting dishonestly and making a financial gain from it (selling a more expensive ticket than needed)?
 

yorkie

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Is the ticket valid for Waterloo to Clapham in those evening times? Or indeed Clapham to Olympia? I.e does the restriction apply to the travelcard part?
Absolutely not. That would be unlawful.
A train company acting dishonestly and making a financial gain from it (selling a more expensive ticket than needed)?
Absolutely normal for some train companies, and they're seemingly immune from prosecution. It's not a level playing field.
 

jon0844

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I asked a GTR RPI about the peak train issue, and he admitted that they couldn't give a penalty fare to someone with an off-peak ticket on a train getting to King's Cross before 10am.

He did however say that they'd seek to MG11 if they thought someone was doing it to avoid paying the correct fare, so perhaps that's what now happens?
 

AnkleBoots

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Weekend leisure travellers really don't need these unnecessary complications!

Although it's quite a bit cheaper than the Off Peak ticket.

Thanks for your help
 

bb21

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Weekend leisure travellers really don't need these unnecessary complications!

Although it's quite a bit cheaper than the Off Peak ticket.

Thanks for your help

They can of course withdraw these Super Off-Peak fares to "simply" things. ;)

Seriously I doubt anyone would care. The current restrictions prevent the use of the faster trains at busier times which is what they were seeking I would suspect. If you are willing to get a slower suburban train by boarding at Wimbledon then fair play.

If you want full flexibility then there is of course an appropriate product for it, with "Anytime" in the name.
 

TEW

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The concept of only restricting the certain stations is nothing new, the Weekday Super Off Peak tickets on SWT have had very similar restrictions for years.
 

RJ

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To get round this could I have boarded at Waterloo eg at 5pm on a train stopping at Surbiton, get off and on the same train there, and would be able to honestly tell the Woking barrier people that I had boarded at Surbiton? Or is this fraud.

You could get off at any station between Waterloo and Woking and do the hat dance on every platform before re-boarding. It doesn't change the fact that you boarded the train at Waterloo.

You'd be better off buying a ticket that doesn't have time restrictions that affect you.
 

yorkie

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Weekend leisure travellers really don't need these unnecessary complications!
Be careful what you wish for! Pricing managers read this forum intently. This post could be interpreted as a request to abolish these fares. If too many people appear to want them abolished, they might well end up being removed.

You have to make the best of the system that you can if you want to save money. Some restrictions are daft, and it's easy to get around them, but if the cheaper fares did not exist, we'd all pay more.
 

AnkleBoots

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You could get off at any station between Waterloo and Woking and do the hat dance on every platform before re-boarding. It doesn't change the fact that you boarded the train at Waterloo.
It does mean I can truthfully say that I boarded the train at Surbiton though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Be careful what you wish for! Pricing managers read this forum intently. This post could be interpreted as a request to abolish these fares. If too many people appear to want them abolished, they might well end up being removed.
The ticket costs little more than a Z1-6 Travelcard, so definitely good value (so thanks to any Pricing Managers reading)! Am going to read more of this forum to find more "sweet spots".
 

infobleep

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They can of course withdraw these Super Off-Peak fares to "simply" things. ;)

Seriously I doubt anyone would care. The current restrictions prevent the use of the faster trains at busier times which is what they were seeking I would suspect. If you are willing to get a slower suburban train by boarding at Wimbledon then fair play.

If you want full flexibility then there is of course an appropriate product for it, with "Anytime" in the name.
How much less busy are the Basingstoke and Alton trains? This stop at Surbiton twice an hour for each destination but only once an hour at Clapham Junction for each destination. For the other train it skips Clapham Junction but not Surbiton.

Of course they would be within their rights to include Surbiton in the restrictions stations list.
 
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bb21

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Hpw much less busy are the Basingstoke and Alton trains?

Nowhere near as busy as the longer distance ones I believe, helped by off-peak capacity typically being 8 cars compared to 5 for the latter.

I don't think you can overtake if travelling to Woking once you get to Surbiton, as the gap in front of the faster trains are too big to catch up with the stopper before one would have got off but I may be wrong.
 

Peter Mugridge

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Of course they would be within their rights to include Surbiton in the restrictions stations list.

Now it's been mentioned on here, watch out for it at the next update!
 

Kite159

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Hpw much less busy are the Basingstoke and Alton trains? This stop at Surbiton twice an hour for each destination but only once an hour at Clapham Junction for each destination. For the other train it skips Clapham Junction but not Surbiton.

Of course they would be within their rights to include Surbiton in the restrictions stations list.

The fasts to Surbiton are a lot less busier after Surbiton once all the Surbiton passengers alight ;)

The Basingstoke stoppers are overtaken around Weybridge by the Salisbury weasels, and I have heard passengers planning to change at Woking for a tight but doable +5 (ish) to join the Basingstoke stopper.
 

soil

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The media have picked up on this outrageous fare increase http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/south-west-trains-introduces-massive-12454440; basically what SWT had was a structure that went like this:

Anytime Day Return - Monday-Friday morning peak
Offpeak Day return - Monday-Friday outside morning peak
Super-offpeak Day Return - Monday - Friday after 11am outbound, returning outside the evening peak; weekends anytime

Now they have removed the distinction between Monday-Friday and weekends, so you can no longer buy a super-off-peak ticket on Saturday/Sunday mornings, nor can you return during the non-existent evening peak, so basically they try and trick people into buying more expensive tickets.

(Note that the weekend and weekday tickets have slightly different conditions, but it's not a big difference).

It's particularly egregious to do this on Sundays, which are not busy and about one weekend in two are subject to some kind of maintenance work making journeys take twice as long as they should.
 

TEW

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Weekends are very busy in to Waterloo, there are frequently overcrowding problems. There is a key difference between the Weekday and Weekend restrictions too. The Weekend tickets only bar arrivals at Waterloo between 0930 and 1200. So you can travel early to avoid the restrictions. The times the restrictions apply are generally very busy times at Weekends.
 

Kite159

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Weekends are very busy in to Waterloo, there are frequently overcrowding problems. There is a key difference between the Weekday and Weekend restrictions too. The Weekend tickets only bar arrivals at Waterloo between 0930 and 1200. So you can travel early to avoid the restrictions. The times the restrictions apply are generally very busy times at Weekends.

The problem I can forsee is heavy loadings on the first "off-peak" trains in the evening.

Wouldn't want to be in Overton or Whitchurch as the first off-peak train they can catch on a Sunday will be the 20:15 towards Exeter due to the 19:15 skipping those two stations!

---------

On an unrelated note regarding the restriction codes, I have noticed that the SWT website says 18:30 is the end of the peak restriction (https://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/tickets-explained/tickets/super-off-peak/), however if you look at BR Fares the code restriction is "London Terminals: 04:30-10:59, & 16:30-19:00".

Mistake by whoever encoded the restriction codes?
 

soil

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This seems to be correct :

Restriction Code: UR

APPLICABLE DAYS

Saturday, Sunday & Public
Holidays

OUTWARD AND RETURN TRAVEL

If boarding at the stations
below, not valid on trains
departing:

London Terminals: 04:30-10:59
& 16:30-19:00

Vauxhall: 04:30-11:05 &
16:03-18:35

Queenstown Road: 04:30-11:05_&
16:03-18:35

Clapham Junction: 04:30-11:05
& 16:09-18:40

Any other station in London
Zones 1-6 not listed above:
04:30-10:59


Presumably you could travel by District Line to Wimbledon and return from there, as you then would not be "boarding" at any of the stations with PM restrictions.


No, that's the wrong text.

Actual text:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/UR

"Not valid on trains arriving: London Terminals: 09:31 – 11:59

If boarding at the stations below, not valid on trains departing:
London Terminals: 04:30-10:59 & 16:00-18:30
Vauxhall: 04:30-11:05 & 16:03-18:35
Queenstown Road: 04:30-11:05 & 16:03-18:35
Clapham Junction: 04:30-11:05 & 16:09-18:40
Any other station in London Zones 1-6 not listed above: 04:30-10:59."
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
They don't seem to have implemented it very well.

Woking - Radlett is missing a weekend super off-peak ticket, so it's cheaper on a weekday than a weekend. (since they have restricted the weekday ticket for sale on weekends)
 

Starmill

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I don't understand why they created a new ticket type. London Midland have a miles better structure whereby the restriction text explains what trains can and can't be used every day. They also have uniform restrictions for Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak (at least north of Rugby) which are the same both ways and in First and Standard class. South West Trains have a variation for all of these different things, exponentially increasing the combination of restrictions they're trying to enforce.

Then again LM haven't tried to enforce different restrictions on Saturdays and Sundays to weekdays - they're either the same or they don't apply at all. Quite what there is to be gained from SWT having different restrictions for Off-Peak (Day) First and Standard class restrictions is beyond me though. As is the slightly bizarre concept of First Class Weekend Super Off-Peak Day Return (!).

Then again, this change has had a very odd effect of making it very cheaper to buy one from Basingstoke to Bournemouth than buying XC Weekend First - I bet they haven't agreed to that!

Previously that would have been £27.80 single plus £10 Weekend First, £37.80. Now it's £29.10.
 
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FenMan

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This is the culmination of a plan that's taken nearly 10 years to implement.

(Using Woking - Waterloo off peak day returns to illustrate)

Pre-2008
Off Peak: £9.80

2008
- Off Peak renamed Super Off Peak with weekday morning and evening restrictions added: £9.80
- New Off Peak tier created at 25% price premium: £12.00

2017
- Super Off Peak turned into weekday ticket only: £13.80
- Weekend Super Off Peak ticket created, with (different) morning and evening restrictions: £13.80
- Off Peak: £17.50

It's taken a while, but SWT have succeeded in ramping fares for most off peak travel by 25%, making them very expensive indeed compared with other ToCs. Ker-ching!

Comparisons for travel into London in Saturday morning "peak" from stations a similar distance from London:-

No prizes for guessing which TOC is levying the highest fare ...

£17.50 Woking - Waterloo

£16.70 Ebbsfleet International - St. Pancras HS1
£16.50 Beaconsfield - Marylebone
£13.90 Hemel Hempstead - Euston
£13.40 Ingatestone - Liverpool Street
£12.90 Harlow Town - Liverpool Street
£11.90 Sevenoaks - Charing Cross
£11.80 Maidenhead - Paddington
£10.10 Basildon - Fenchurch Street
£9.20 Horley - Victoria
£9.10 Knebworth - King's Cross
£9.10 Harpenden - St. Pancras
 

soil

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Just sent letter to my MP:

I am writing to you with regards to SouthWest Trains; as of January 2017, they have implemented 27% fare increases on weekend fares.

Prior to 2008, there were two fare classes on trains to London - off-peak, and anytime. In 2008, a new class of fare was added, 'super off-peak', priced the same as the old off-peak fare, and the price of off-peak was increased by 25%.

The super-off-peak could be used any time on weekends, and after 12 noon on weekdays and returning outside the evening rush hour.

As of January 2017, South West Trains have removed existing super-off-peak tickets from sale on weekends, and have added a new 'weekend super-off-peak ticket'. This is restricted on trains arriving into London between 09:30 and noon, and leaving from London between 4pm and 6:30pm. This applies even on Sundays and on days when the trains are running at half speed due to maintenance work.

The morning restrictions make it more difficult to attend lunchtime restaurant reservations in London, and make a weekend day out a more stressful experience, as you must hurry to catch the 08:59 train, or face 25% higher fares until 11:29. Even more egregiously, passengers are charged extra for slower trains on days with maintenance works - on the 28th of January, for example, the last morning super-off-peak train is at 08:31 as journey times on that weekend are extended by 32 minutes, meaning that train is scheduled into Waterloo at 09:29, and subsequent trains are therefore no longer 'super-off-peak'.

The evening restrictions also create unnecessary confusion, as even if the travellers is travelling outside the morning restricted hours, they may not know what time they want to return, and facing a 2.5 hour blackout period, may end up buying an unneeded 'off-peak' ticket, which costs 27% more.

This is particularly problematic in view of the fact that although the National Rail Conditions of Travel allow a passenger to pay (including on board the train) the difference between the price of a super off-peak and off-peak ticket when travelling outside of the super-off-peak hours, in practice the guards and barriers at Waterloo will not permit a passenger to board a train with such a ticket, and will not advise passengers of the ability to purchase an excess.

The new weekend super-off-peak rules are unique to South West Trains, and the fares applicable from Woking are in any case already the most expensive in the London area:

Woking - London off-peak £17.50 return (£13.80 highly restricted super-off-peak) (24.66 miles) - 71p/mile
Harlow Mill - London (Greater Anglia) £17.10 (£13.40 super off-peak, which is unrestricted at weekends) (24.52 miles) - 70p/mile
Hemel Hempstead - London (London Midland) £13.90 return (24.53 miles) - 57p/mile
Knebworth - London (Thameslink) £13.50 (£9.10 weekend) return (25.06 miles) - 54p/mile
Hildenborough - London (Southeastern) £14.10 return (26.77 miles) - 53p/mile
East Tilbury - London (c2c) £13.10 (£10.10 weekends) (25.11 miles) - 52p/mile
Horley - London (Southern) £13.40 return (25.63 miles) - 52p/mile
Furze Platt- London (First Great Western) £11.80 return (25.48 miles) - 46p/mile
Great Missenden - London (Chiltern) £11.50 return (28.74 miles) - 40p/mile

Thus as you can see, at 71p/mile, even prior to the new weekend restrictions, off-peak fares from Woking were already more expensive than any other station located a similar distance from London.

Furthermore, the only similarly expensive off-peak fare, from Harlow Mill, has a super-off-peak ticket which can be used at any time on weekends. That means, that for unrestricted weekend travel, travel from Woking is 25% more expensive than the next most-expensive station (Hemel Hempstead), and double that of the cheapest (Knebworth).

I believe it is unacceptable that Woking residents thus suffer both the highest weekday off-peak and highest weekend fares in the South East, and would appreciate your assistance in addressing this issue, and in particular effecting a return to an unrestricted weekend super-off-peak, or at the utmost minimum, a super-off-peak ticket that is valid all day Sunday, as well as a suspension of restrictions on weekend days with maintenance works.

The new rules are designed to confuse, and the comparable fares and fare history show that the fair 'off-peak' fare is actually the 'super-off-peak' - the super-off-peak fare was introduced as a device not to encourage travel at quieter times, but to increase the cost of travel even outside of the rush hour. Therefore, given that 'super-off-peak' fares have been increased in line with the old 'off-peak' fare, the 'off-peak' fare should be cut to the price of the 'super-off-peak', and super-off-peak either scrapped, or made cheaper.
 

infobleep

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This is the culmination of a plan that's taken nearly 10 years to implement.

(Using Woking - Waterloo off peak day returns to illustrate)

Pre-2008
Off Peak: £9.80

2008
- Off Peak renamed Super Off Peak with weekday morning and evening restrictions added: £9.80
- New Off Peak tier created at 25% price premium: £12.00

2017
- Super Off Peak turned into weekday ticket only: £13.80
- Weekend Super Off Peak ticket created, with (different) morning and evening restrictions: £13.80
- Off Peak: £17.50

It's taken a while, but SWT have succeeded in ramping fares for most off peak travel by 25%, making them very expensive indeed compared with other ToCs. Ker-ching!

Comparisons for travel into London in Saturday morning "peak" from stations a similar distance from London:-

No prizes for guessing which TOC is levying the highest fare ...

£17.50 Woking - Waterloo

£16.70 Ebbsfleet International - St. Pancras HS1
£16.50 Beaconsfield - Marylebone
£13.90 Hemel Hempstead - Euston
£13.40 Ingatestone - Liverpool Street
£12.90 Harlow Town - Liverpool Street
£11.90 Sevenoaks - Charing Cross
£11.80 Maidenhead - Paddington
£10.10 Basildon - Fenchurch Street
£9.20 Horley - Victoria
£9.10 Knebworth - King's Cross
£9.10 Harpenden - St. Pancras

Thinking off the top of my head, does the price reflect the quality of service? I see Govia Thameslink Railway companies, Southeastern Trains notwithstanding, seem to be among the cheapest.
 

Kite159

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Thinking off the top of my head, does the price reflect the quality of service? I see Govia Thameslink Railway companies, Southeastern Trains notwithstanding, seem to be among the cheapest.

And does the price reflect the speed & frequency of the services?
 

FenMan

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And does the price reflect the speed & frequency of the services?

Your wish is my command:-

£17.50 Woking - Waterloo
- 13tph (excluding slows that are overtaken), 25-37 minutes
£16.70 Ebbsfleet International - St. Pancras HS1
- 4tph, 19-20 minutes
£16.50 Beaconsfield - Marylebone
- 3tph, 22-31 minutes
£13.90 Hemel Hempstead - Euston
- 4tph, 26-33 minutes
£13.40 Ingatestone - Liverpool Street
- 2ph, 29 minutes
£12.90 Harlow Town - Liverpool Street
- 4tph, 31-45 minutes
£11.90 Sevenoaks - Charing Cross
- 10tph, 36-50 minutes
£11.80 Maidenhead - Paddington
- 4tph, 43-46 minutes
£10.10 Basildon - Fenchurch Street
- 4tph, 43-46 minutes
£9.20 Horley - Victoria
1tph, 33 minutes. Also 2tph to London Bridge, 53-55 minutes
£9.10 Knebworth - King's Cross
2tph, 34-37 minutes
£9.10 Harpenden - St. Pancras
- 9tph, 25-38 minutes

Also the aim was to list stations equidistant to London.

Examples of stations further out with good/excellent service:-
£18.00 (GW) Reading*
£10.80 (TL), £18.20 Any, Brighton
£16.90 (GN), £16.60 (AGA), Cambridge
£13.80 Tonbridge
£15.80 Chelmsford

*Hilariously the SWT fare for Reading is more expensive, £18.40, for a far inferior service.

Now compare with equivalent SWT stations:-
£24.10 Basingstoke
£22.40 Farnborough Main
£36.40 Winchester
£27.30 Haslemere
£20.00 Guildford

I rest my case m'lud
 

soil

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Examples of stations further out with good/excellent service:-
£18.00 (GW) Reading*
£10.80 (TL), £18.20 Any, Brighton
£16.90 (GN), £16.60 (AGA), Cambridge
£13.80 Tonbridge
£15.80 Chelmsford

*Hilariously the SWT fare for Reading is more expensive, £18.40, for a far inferior service.

Where are you getting your fares from?

Reading is:

FGW:
£46 SDR
£27.40 SVR
£18.70 CDR

SWT:
£34.20 SOR
£32.80 SDR
£26.90 SVR
£18.40 CDR
£18.10 weekday SOD (super off-peak)
£15.60 weekend SOH (super off-peak)

None of the SWT fares are really worth it, but they are definitely cheaper, if only 30p (that weekday £18.10 SOD is particularly unappealing)
 
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