• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

Status
Not open for further replies.
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Domeyhead

Member
Joined
10 Nov 2009
Messages
386
Location
The South
Perhaps you could point out the significant cost benefits you feel will be achieved be exchanging a name bagde which says 'Conductor' for one which says 'OBS'?

Alternatively, perhaps you might like to consider how much has been spent attempting to batter staff into submission, on court cases, on the PR propaganda war and on everything else, and then have a think about whether it would have been worth all of that if the only intention was to let Drivers 'do the doors'. There is an end game here. It really isn't difficult to see it. The 'conspiracy' is the repeated refusal to admit that the cost savings are going to come from destaffing the railway.

Not that, BW, but there is a clear benefit to the TOC in moving staff towards Revenue Protection now, and in 20 years time even this will evolve into something else, for example as credit is drained from a passenger account as they travel and the concept of a physical ticket becomes obsolete. But there are shorter term tactical issues. I don't have the figures of how many trains are cancelled due to "staffing / operational issues" but I have like most rail users at some time been ordered off a train or been late because a guard has not been available for whatever reason. I believe all the passengers on such a service would willingly continue part of their journey wiithout a guard / OBS rather than detrain for an indeterminate wait for what will then be a very overcrowded and unpleasant continuation and the TOC of course would prefer a train to run to time than be withdrawn for financial reasons. Perhaps in an uncertain future the role of OBS may morph once again into something closer to the role of a BTP officer on every train for criminal damage deterrence - I hope not but who knows? I do accept that passengers including myself- would prefer to have a member of staff on the train whatever his/her badge says but if saying OBS or Train Manager rather than Guard or Conductor means more journeys are completed to time then I am happy. Passengers can be selfish too.
 

infobleep

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
12,557
The 24hr booking system makes a mockery of everything done to offer equality between Disabled and Non-Disabled passengers. Where I am you currently have a situation where a Disabled user can use the train virtually like any other passengers, turn up and go, with the Guard always being there to enable this. The only exception to this is for wheelchair users where travel is to or from the few stations where infrastructure like lifts and ramps to avoid step aren't provided. Even in those cases where the destination is the problem though it is the Guard who normally liaises with the Disabled passenger and control to make alternative arrangements. To take away this existing provision from these passengers, forcing a system where people, some of whom commute to and from work every day in a wheelchair, will now have to book specific trains 24hrs in advance for every day, even then without an absolute guarantee of being able to travel on their desired train, is completely against the spirit of what the DDA/Equalities Act tries to achieve.

Given the lengths many industries/companies/businesses have had to go to comply with the DDA/Equalities Act, with serious money being involved, it would seem ridiculous that the railway can seriously reduce its provision to Disabled passengers...



This ignores the circumstances of the second vote though. I appreciate that various people have played up that 'only' 54% voted no, but to me it ignores the real significance of ASLEF members having to vote no against the recommendation of ASLEF. Where I am the Drivers voting against something recommended and supported by ASLEF would be considered incredible! Going by what Drivers are saying where I am, the main reason they'd have voted yes to accept that deal (the majority wouldn't have anyway) was not because they supported the deal, but largely because that was what ASLEF recommended. I think this is also why the turnout was lower this time around, as not voting avoided voting against ASLEF's recommendation... As such, I wouldn't underestimate the continued feeling against this deal/DOO.
Politicians abstain from voting when they disagree with the government but don't want to publicly do so.
 

infobleep

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
12,557
Even on trains with guards, booking in advance makes scant assurance that assistance will be available. I book my weekly commuting journeys on a Saturday for the following week. This week there was no assistance on Wednesday, Thursday and today and I was helped onto the train by another passenger each time. This isn't that unusual and last week I had to get myself and my wheelchair off the train to avoid being carried back the way I'd come. If the situation is like this now with guards on the train, I dread to think what it's going to be like once they've gone.
I think you need to get a TV camera crew with you to make a documentary. You couldn't do every day live as they might make an effort just for TV.
In Berlin on the U-Bahn(5 minute headway, stops every 1-2 minutes) and the S-Bahn(5-10 minute headway, stops every 2-3 minutes in the centre), they load and unload wheelchairs every day without station staff or a conductor.

The wheelchair user waits by the front cab door. The driver sees them, then while people are getting on and off he sets up the ramp stored on the platform adjacent to the first passenger door, and the wheelchair goes on. Then he puts the ramp back and off the train goes. This video shows the procedure : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olyphv8lEGY

They can also do DOO dispatch from the platform on the S-Bahn. In the cab there is a microphone on a long cord. The driver stands on the platform, announces he is closing the doors, presses a button on the microphone to trigger the door closure, and then gets back in the cab and drives off. Safety problems solved.

So there are other options if you think outside the box a bit, and see the driver as a flexible human worker, not someone strapped into a chair. I doubt this could ever be implemented in Britain though. If ASLEF were told their members had to work harder and the in process make on train staff redundant they would go ballistic.
Unfortunately they didn't stick the disabled space by the drivers cab. Now you might say they were stupid idiots for not doing so when they designed the rolling stock. However that is with hindsight.
 
Last edited:

infobleep

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
12,557
What case law are you talking about? Have there been any cases about disabled passengers turning up to go and their right to get on a train? AFAIK Bestwestern is correct, DOO has been in place elsewhere without any such cases.

Anyway Parliament is supreme, the judiciary may overrule the Goverment (as it has recently in the Article 50 case) but it can't overrule parliamentary law.

It really is grasping at straws to believe otherwise.
It was found that one law the government had written was against EU Law so the law was found to be illegal. I don't have the details of the law to hand but it highlights how a law could be ruled illegal. This occurred within the last couple of years.
 
Last edited:

AlterEgo

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
20,036
Location
No longer here
If drivers were to do the ramps, as they're leaving the cab to walk down the train, the cab would have to be shutdown and secured (The Signaller informed etc). Then load the passeenger, stow the ramp, return to the cab and set up (contact the signaller again).. and then proceed... easily several minutes added.

Why is all that necessary on the GB rail network but seemingly not on the Berlin U-Bahn?
 

jammy1

Member
Joined
4 Feb 2017
Messages
5
Of course it is about saving money! You say this as though this is a revelation of a sinister conspiracy between the DFT and the Franchise holders.



More likely reason is that its about making sure every service that can impact on the Thameslink 2018 timetable has the most efficient possible dwell time - not that there's much chance of that timetable working anyway unless DfT has a complete rethink and recasts it as a short distance metro-style timetable.
 

TEW

Established Member
Joined
16 May 2008
Messages
5,841
More likely reason is that its about making sure every service that can impact on the Thameslink 2018 timetable has the most efficient possible dwell time - not that there's much chance of that timetable working anyway unless DfT has a complete rethink and recasts it as a short distance metro-style timetable.

I assume you've not been out and experienced the new DOO regime on Southern then? It has certainly not led to shorter dwell times, quite the opposite as several posters on here have commented on.
 

Barn

Established Member
Joined
3 Sep 2008
Messages
1,463
As mentioned upthread, the uncertainty can be really stressful, especially where you are doing the journey frequently and this is on top of the usual commuting stresses

This is a good point, and one which we should all remember, including sceptics of the strikes like me.

It's easy to rationalise that, on one level, if a lack of guard cancels a train, a disabled person would not have been able to board it anyway, whereas with the OBS model at least the train can continue in normal service and reduce congestion.

But I entirely appreciate that the uncertainty must be a real source of stress, anxiety and frustration, to the extent that it might reduce disabled travellers' confidence to take a job in London.

Similar uncertainty has, after all, been the major cause of stress, anxiety and frustration in all commuters on the GTR network during the travails there and it would clearly be wrong to wish that on disabled travellers on a permanent basis.

I think my only qualification to the above is that we should be happy to investigate all methods of dealing with the issue, including technological changes (automatic ramps, etc) and greater use of station staff.
 
Last edited:

Fincra5

Established Member
Joined
6 Jun 2009
Messages
2,486
Why is all that necessary on the GB rail network but seemingly not on the Berlin U-Bahn?

Well its a bit different staying near the cab.. to having to walk 3 coaches away to load a passenger. Drivers can't leave the cab active and walk away down the platform. Unfortunately you never know what kind of person might just gain access to the cab (etc etc).

I also don't write the rulebook so can't answer why the German Operation on U-bahn is different to GB Rail.
 

Dave1987

On Moderation
Joined
20 Oct 2012
Messages
4,563
Ok so let's say that all trains are changed so there is a wheelchair area behind the driver at both ends with an accessible toilet, so you have two wheelchair areas and two accessible toilets, one at either end of the unit. What happens where drivers are required to change ends mid journey? How do you factor in the addition dwell times of the driver getting out of their cab, accessing the ramp etc and then getting back in their cab? What about platforms that tapper at the ends so there isn't the room to get a wheelchair off?
 

313103

Established Member
Joined
13 May 2006
Messages
1,595
Why is all that necessary on the GB rail network but seemingly not on the Berlin U-Bahn?

You are trying to compare one underground system in one German city against the whole national network in the UK, surely the comparison your looking for is one national network ie Germany against one national network ie UK.
 

AlterEgo

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
20,036
Location
No longer here
You are trying to compare one underground system in one German city against the whole national network in the UK, surely the comparison your looking for is one national network ie Germany against one national network ie UK.

Well, why not explain why, if the disabled area was placed behind the driver, that the driver couldn't perform that assistance 99% of the time on the GB national network?

Of course, the driver currently has to secure his cab, etc, but on several Western European systems we've read now, that is not deemed necessary. It seems to be a mix of culture and risk appetite. Trains which have a large window into the cab from the passenger saloon don't exist on the GB network, but do elsewhere in Europe, which I have often ascribed to cultural differences.
 

D1009

Established Member
Joined
22 Feb 2012
Messages
3,166
Location
Stoke Gifford
Well, why not explain why, if the disabled area was placed behind the driver, that the driver couldn't perform that assistance 99% of the time on the GB national network?
It's a hypothetical question. The disabled area isn't placed behind the driver on most British trains, and no-one is seriously suggesting that train drivers should regularly provide assistance to wheelchair users as far as I know.

Is it beyond the power of man to design a wheelchair which can be easily moved on and off a train by the user without assistance, or alternatively fit trains with retractable ramps which could be monitored from the cab by CCTV?
 

AlterEgo

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
20,036
Location
No longer here
It's a hypothetical question. The disabled area isn't placed behind the driver on most British trains, and no-one is seriously suggesting that train drivers should regularly provide assistance to wheelchair users as far as I know.

Is it beyond the power of man to design a wheelchair which can be easily moved on and off a train by the user without assistance, or alternatively fit trains with retractable ramps which could be monitored from the cab by CCTV?

Who knows?

I wasn't seriously suggesting this was feasible in the next 10 years or so, but it's interesting to observe the cultural differences as well as the perception of the role of a driver.
 

455driver

Veteran Member
Joined
10 May 2010
Messages
11,332
Even on trains with guards, booking in advance makes scant assurance that assistance will be available. I book my weekly commuting journeys on a Saturday for the following week. This week there was no assistance on Wednesday, Thursday and today and I was helped onto the train by another passenger each time. This isn't that unusual and last week I had to get myself and my wheelchair off the train to avoid being carried back the way I'd come. If the situation is like this now with guards on the train, I dread to think what it's going to be like once they've gone.

Where were the 'Guards' when this was going on?

What line are you on?
 

455driver

Veteran Member
Joined
10 May 2010
Messages
11,332
Fewer delay or cancellation fines from having to cancel trains if no guards are available.

What are the current costs of all the trains currently cancelled because no guard is available?

Why isnt there a guard available in the first place?
 

Wombat

Member
Joined
12 Jul 2013
Messages
299
Why isnt there a guard available in the first place?

Could be they're on strike, or an incident somewhere has left staff in the wrong place. On the former point, I'd expect that reducing the ability of the RMT to shut down the network is one of the motivations for DOO.
 

455driver

Veteran Member
Joined
10 May 2010
Messages
11,332
Could be they're on strike, or an incident somewhere has left staff in the wrong place. On the former point, I'd expect that reducing the ability of the RMT to shut down the network is one of the motivations for DOO.
Apart from the ongoing dispute on Southern when was the last strike?
You lot make it sound as if its a weekly occurrence! :roll:

Its more likely to be because the company have not kept up with recruitment as guards have moved on or retired which I dont see as a valid reason to get rid of the grade, unlike some on here.
 

infobleep

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
12,557
Well, why not explain why, if the disabled area was placed behind the driver, that the driver couldn't perform that assistance 99% of the time on the GB national network?

Of course, the driver currently has to secure his cab, etc, but on several Western European systems we've read now, that is not deemed necessary. It seems to be a mix of culture and risk appetite. Trains which have a large window into the cab from the passenger saloon don't exist on the GB network, but do elsewhere in Europe, which I have often ascribed to cultural differences.
Lots of things are different in Europe. I Holland coffee shops allow people to buy and smoke certain substances. Do that here and you might get arrested. So the world is full of cultural differences.

Just because it's culturally acceptable in one country doesn't mean it is in another or people even want it to be.
 

313103

Established Member
Joined
13 May 2006
Messages
1,595
Apart from the ongoing dispute on Southern when was the last strike?
You lot make it sound as if its a weekly occurrence! :roll:

Its more likely to be because the company have not kept up with recruitment as guards have moved on or retired which I dont see as a valid reason to get rid of the grade, unlike some on here.

London Overground had up to August 2013 and from its inception in 2007 a total of 'ZERO' days lost to ANY industrial action on its network, even though on one other occasion we nearly did but that didnt occur.

Even people on here get the impression the RMT is on strike every other day so they need their tails cutting, i had took two days strike action in 7 years at London Overground and since i have been with ATW i have had none. Yet the perception exists that we are a strike happy union, if that was the case i would be on strike on average once every other week over some trivial matter.
 
Last edited:

Chrisgr31

Established Member
Joined
2 Aug 2011
Messages
1,675
What about the cancellation costs due to lack of drivers? That affected both the Uckfield and Milton Keynes lines today.

I believe they are the same drivers! Uckfield line and Marsh Line also suffering from a significant number of unit failures.
 

redbutton

Member
Joined
5 Sep 2013
Messages
459
Would this not technically be in breach of a bylaw and place you at risk of prosecution?

It's interesting you would mention that. I recently had someone hold the doors because a wheelchair passenger wanted to get off. When I reported it to Control, they sent BTP to meet the train.

Of course, by then I had already went and found platform staff myself. They assisted the passengers and I carried on with the journey. The responding officers didn't catch up with me until we reached the terminus anyway, at which point they and I shook our heads in disbelief.

To be fair to Control, I'm not sure the reason for the door-holding was clear to them and they probably thought it was youths horsing around as they often do in that area, but I don't know for sure.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top