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mg11 southeastern

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gazzalad20

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going keep this short ive been given my court date for not having a train ticket or money from broadstairs to margate kent would i get sent to prison i have pleaded guilty in a written letter or would i pay court costs and fines
 
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Fare-Cop

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going keep this short ive been given my court date for not having a train ticket or money from broadstairs to margate kent would i get sent to prison i have pleaded guilty in a written letter or would i pay court costs and fines

In an effort to save you some worry, unless you have been convicted of 'intent to avoid a fare' in the past (or have a previous very poor record ) there is no chance of you being sent to prison for a one-off, non aggravated fare evasion matter that you have pled guilty to.

You'll most likely be ordered to pay a fine, compensation of the unpaid fare, something toward the prosecution costs and a victim surcharge (which is a kind of 'tax' on people who have been fined by the Courts.)
 

najaB

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would i get sent to prison i have pleaded guilty in a written letter or would i pay court costs and fines
There is virtually zero chance that you will go to prison over a ticketing matter. Especially since you plead guilty (which automatically reduces any possible fine/sentence). You'll be looking at a fine/court costs/victim surcharge/etc which typically would range from £100 to £500 depending on exactly what you have been charged with.
 

gazzalad20

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this is my first mg11 ive had fines in the past but kept to the payment ,also i did offer twice the single fare plus 120 pounds compensation plus 125 court and willing to bring the full amount money in cash to the court date
 

najaB

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as far as i know ive been reported for fare evasion
There isn't any such offence as fare evasion. You will have been charged with something specific (e.g. 'On (date) entered a train to travel without a valid ticket.') - have a look and let us know.
 

island

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Your paperwork should say something like

Entered a train and did not have with you a valid ticket, or
Failed to hand over a ticket for inspection, or
Travelled on a train without having previously paid the fare and with intent to avoid payment thereof

The last of those is the most serious offence but as above you are most unlikely to face prison.

Needless to say, however, you really need to ensure you don't put yourself in this situation again – you seem to be saying you have had multiple ticketing offences, and any more will make matters quite a lot worse.
 

gazzalad20

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it says i travel with a ticket and any form of money

it said Travelled on a train without having previously paid the fare and with intent to avoid payment
 
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najaB

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it said Travelled on a train without having previously paid the fare and with intent to avoid payment
That means that they intend to pursue a prosecution under the Regulation of Railways Act. This isn't good news as a conviction will be visible on any DBS checks for twelve months.
 

bb21

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I sense the conviction being on DBS checks for 12 months is the least of the OP's worries. If he doesn't change his behaviour, prison is a likely outcome in the future.

You won't be able to get away with it forever, and sooner or later the train company will lose patience. The same applies with the courts.

This message really needs to sink in.
 

Fare-Cop

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There isn't any such offence as fare evasion. You will have been charged with something specific (e.g. 'On (date) entered a train to travel without a valid ticket.') - have a look and let us know.

Whilst you are right that a Summons alleging the offence uses the correct phrase from the Regulation of Railways Act [1889] i.e: 'did travel on a Railway without having previously paid his fare and with intent to avoid payment thereof..', I think we can understand widespread use of the term 'Fare Evasion' as a description of the offence, because it is the term that MoJ use themselves quite often. See the link below from the latest Sentencing Council guidelines.

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.u...sed-2017/3-railway-fare-evasion-revison-2017/


this is my first mg11 ive had fines in the past but kept to the payment ,also i did offer twice the single fare plus 120 pounds compensation plus 125 court and willing to bring the full amount money in cash to the court date

I assume that this comment includes possible further confusion regarding use of specific terms.

Where the OP says 'i've had fines in the past but kept to the payment' I am assuming that he means he has previously had Penalty Fare Notices, which he has paid, because he also says 'This is my first MG11'.

Perhaps the OP can clarify, have you previously been fined by a Court for railway ticketing offences?

If not, the payments that you refer to as 'fines' are in fact not fines, but are civil settlements and do not count as previously convicted offences so far as a Court is concerned.

If in fact you have been summonsed to a previous Court hearing for a ticket related offence then that's a different matter and it's important to be clear because it might have a bearing on any sentence in this case.


it says i travel with a ticket and any form of money

it said Travelled on a train without having previously paid the fare and with intent to avoid payment

The important bits here are:

i) that you had not previously paid and didn't have a ticket
ii) that you did not have 'any form of money'

It has been ruled that the fare is due at the time of travel and not later (Bremme [1964]) so, whether or not the facility to get a ticket was available before you got on the train, not having the means to pay confirms that the offence is made out.

A man cannot give what he does not have. You did travel on the train and did not have the means to pay the fare.
.
 
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gazzalad20

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ive had penalty fare before not issued from the court from the railway enforcement officers , this is my first mg 11 but i did plead guilty in a written letter and offer them twice single fare plus 120 on of the 125 court payment
 

455driver

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So you are a persistent fare evader then.

I can see why they want to take you to Court.

Good news, you will (probably) not be going to Prison (less than a 1% chance)

Bad news, its going to be bloomin expensive.

If you are caught again the chances of going to Prison are much higher, please learn from this, you might think its 'only a train fare' but to a Court of Law it is fraud and can seriously eff up your chances of getting (or keeping) a decent/any job.
 

cuccir

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ive had penalty fare before not issued from the court from the railway enforcement officers , this is my first mg 11 but i did plead guilty in a written letter and offer them twice single fare plus 120 on of the 125 court payment

You can read the sentencing guidelines for the offence involved here. New guidelines will apply if your trial is after 24 April (here).

Breaking the Regulations of the Railways Act ("Fare Evasion") only results in jail if there are significant factors worsening it - principally previous convictions, violence/threats or other bad behaviour during the process, or an extremely high amount of money saved. Furthermore, a guilty plea at this stage will reduce your sentence so even if these mitigating factors DO push you up into a jail sentence, this plea would almost definitely bring you back down.

As a jail sentence is technically possible on the day, you should be able to get advice from the duty solicitor at the court if you have not already got a solicitor. He/she will be able to help you with any mitigation that you think might reduce the sentence.
 

gazzalad20

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no i'm not persistent fare evader the other times i had the money on its just this one time i didn't
 

Clip

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no i'm not persistent fare evader the other times i had the money on its just this one time i didn't

Whether you had the money on you or not by not purchasing a ticket before you board you are committing an offence.

You need to understand this and you need to stop trying to bunk the train.
 

30907

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no i'm not persistent fare evader the other times i had the money on its just this one time i didn't

Sorry, but having the money in your pocket is not the same as paying your fare. You have to buy the ticket before you are "caught" - you didn't, that's why you received a Penalty Fare.
 

soil

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I sense the conviction being on DBS checks for 12 months is the least of the OP's worries. If he doesn't change his behaviour, prison is a likely outcome in the future.

You won't be able to get away with it forever, and sooner or later the train company will lose patience. The same applies with the courts.

This message really needs to sink in.

what message? based on what?

a RORA prosecution will incur at worst a band C fine - 1.75x weekly income (see sentencing gudelines). plus costs

A fraud charge is more serious, but there's nothing to support that here. that's more commonly for fake tickets, etc.
 

MikeWh

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what message? based on what?

The OP has been caught before and issued a penalty fare, possibly more than once. This time it has gone to court, either because he had no money or because his name flagged up as a repeat offender, or both. This time he may only get a fine. If he continues to attempt to pay only when challenged then a subsequent court appearance may well result in jail.

To the OP:
You are well and truly known to Southeastern now. It is extremely unlikely that any future travel without a ticket will result in a penalty fare, even if you do have the money on you to pay. It is only going to get more serious from now on. The message you need to take from this is to always buy a ticket before you board the train (unless there are absolutely no facilities to do so).

If you were a cat then I'd say you've probably used up 6-7 of your lives, where the 9th one ends up in jail.
 

gazzalad20

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suffering from mental health could that let me off little plus i'm known to the train company being section 136 under mental health act at there station
 

cuccir

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suffering from mental health could that let me off little plus i'm known to the train company being section 136 under mental health act at there station

It depends on your diagnosis - it is unlikely to get you off unless (for example) you were actively experiencing a psychotic episode at the time, but it may persuade a judge to reduce the sentence.

Before the court date, you should seek a letter from your doctor describing your symptoms (do they include forgetfulness, for example?). The court duty solicitor may use this to help mitigate any punishment (reduced fine, conditional discharge, etc).

If you have the money, speaking to a solicitor in advance may be good as they'll be able to help you formulate an argument around this. However, remember that any fine is likely to be between 50%-150% of a week's income. So if a solicitor costs more than this, you may be best to rely on the court duty solicitor.

If your symptoms include anxiety or other things that would make a court appearance difficult, you may want to speak to the citizens advice bureau or the court itself about any help you might be entitled to.
 

soil

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The OP has been caught before and issued a penalty fare, possibly more than once. This time it has gone to court, either because he had no money or because his name flagged up as a repeat offender, or both. This time he may only get a fine. If he continues to attempt to pay only when challenged then a subsequent court appearance may well result in jail.

based on what sentencing guidelines for which offence? is there any precedent for imprisoning people for this?
 

cuccir

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based on what sentencing guidelines for which offence? is there any precedent for imprisoning people for this?

The sentencing guidelines do include a prison sentence for Regulation of the Railways. However, they don't include it in any of the suggested 'ragnes' for an offence, meaning that it's effectively there as an option for exceptional circumstances.

In practice, therefore, it is highly unlikely that someone would be sentenced for this and no-one here has ever mentioned a case on here where this has happened - to find out whether it has ever happened we'd have to go hunting for it! I think for this to happen in real life, it would have to include multiple factors that increase both culpability and harm ie an organised and deliberate scheme to evade a large amount of fares over an extended time-frame, perhaps without a guilty plea as well.

What's notable is that the post-April sentencing guidelines do include a low level community order ("community work") in the range for category 1 versions of this offence (increased harm and culpability); we can speculate that this may become a more common sentence for repeat offenders in future.
 
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island

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suffering from mental health could that let me off little plus i'm known to the train company being section 136 under mental health act at there station

It won't "let you off" but if you have proper documentary evidence and you bring it to court on the day it may reduce any potential fine.
 

najaB

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based on what sentencing guidelines for which offence? is there any precedent for imprisoning people for this?
Just to expand on cuccir's answer - my suspicion is that the reason custodial sentences for RoRA prosecutions are rare is because the behaviour that would merit such a sentence also supports more serious charges and any persons would have been prosecuted under the Fraud Act or similar.
 
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gazzalad20

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i suffer with ptsd , anxiety , depression , and also expression bipolar but i will have to go for an assessment for it also i'm on meds
 
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