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Class 387 to GN

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physics34

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I have noticed several comments about 387s poor ride and excessive lateral movements over points, but on a few recent rides I have noticed something else: 'hunting' on plain track at speed. This is something I've rarely encountered since the days of loco hauled Mark 1s with BR1 bogies on the Portsmouth - Cardiff services in the 1980s and more generally the old Diesel Mechanical 'heritage' DMUs.

Those Mark 1s that survived longer tended to have either Commonwealth bogies or B4 / B5 bogies, especially EMUs and catering vehicles - which both were much less susceptible to hunting. They were permitted to go 100 mph rather than 90 mph as was the case with BR1 bogies. I don't recall any ride issues with the longer lived EMUs with Gresley bogies (such as 304s and 308s) either.

Hunting is rare now and many of the younger readers on this forum may not have heard the term. It refers to a high frequency sideways (that is lateral) oscillation of the bogie. I am no engineer and so can't describe the precise set of causes, but I believe that additional 'yaw' damping has often been used to prevent excessive hunting. Wikipedia has a fairly detailed article (with lots of scary equations!): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunting_oscillation. Please correct me if my 'layman's' definition isn't really correct though!

i always put this down to when they accelerate because they do speed up quite quickly, thye always feel like they are going to slip. Definately have a "swinging" like motion when makes them pretty bad over points at speed and awful if you have a bad back.

Better seating would be an improvement.
 
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jon0844

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I wish I could exactly remember where it is, but somewhere south of the last Hadley Wood tunnel (nearest London) and on the way to New Barnet and Oakleigh Park - on the up slow - a 387 seems to go all over the place. It's rather uncomfortable.
 

387star

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Saw a 387 at kings x unless my eyes were deceiving me the yellow stripe was in wrong place ie seats with bibs on at a different location stripe being section near cab didn't catch number

Virgin hsts looked grubby also I think the vinyl doesn't wash easily?
 

bramling

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Saw a 387 at kings x unless my eyes were deceiving me the yellow stripe was in wrong place ie seats with bibs on at a different location stripe being section near cab didn't catch number

Let's hope GTR have seen sense and made a much-needed change.

Then again, perhaps GTR could experiment with putting first-class in some other stupid places, perhaps they could put it in the toilet? That would be about right for GTR.
 

jon0844

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Let's hope GTR have seen sense and made a much-needed change.

Then again, perhaps GTR could experiment with putting first-class in some other stupid places, perhaps they could put it in the toilet? That would be about right for GTR.

I wonder if drivers would mind someone up front if they have a first class ticket?

Until the 700s come, I wonder if GTR should consider declassifying first class on all 4 car services? I would expect the wonderful PIS could be set to show that, although it might show as 'East Coast is allowed in Grand Central on this Cross Country Cucumber' or something.
 

Hadders

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I wonder if drivers would mind someone up front if they have a first class ticket?

Until the 700s come, I wonder if GTR should consider declassifying first class on all 4 car services? I would expect the wonderful PIS could be set to show that, although it might show as 'East Coast is allowed in Grand Central on this Cross Country Cucumber' or something.

I agree. They'll need to get something in the announcement about changing for one services :lol:

Another example of GTR incompetence. Yesterday I used a Southern Daysave ticket. When I collected it from a TVM at Victoria the screen said it could be used on any GNER service.
 

Skimble19

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There's definitely at least one 387 now going about with First Class in the original larger position near the cab. Unfortunately the yellow line is where it is on most other units covering the section that is standard class on this particular unit, meanwhile the section that has the First Class seats has nothing..

No wonder passengers get confused..!
 

bramling

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There's definitely at least one 387 now going about with First Class in the original larger position near the cab. Unfortunately the yellow line is where it is on most other units covering the section that is standard class on this particular unit, meanwhile the section that has the First Class seats has nothing..

No wonder passengers get confused..!

Maybe it's time for a bit of unofficial action? If we change all the antimacassars around we could put the first class in its rightful place. Few 'normal' punters know what the yellow stripe means anyway. At least then we could have every unit consistent too.
 

jon0844

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Maybe it's time for a bit of unofficial action? If we change all the antimacassars around we could put the first class in its rightful place. Few 'normal' punters know what the yellow stripe means anyway. At least then we could have every unit consistent too.
 

43096

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I suggested that to an RPI who said it was a good idea. Given GTR is allergic to signs, you could put the antimacassars wherever you like.



Why just select one part of the train? You could dot them around the seats randomly, or only put them on aisle seats...

Spread them throughout the unit!

On the issue of seat comfort, it is somewhat embarrassing that the Waterloo & City line has more comfortable seats that the 387s.
 
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Domh245

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Maybe it's time for a bit of unofficial action? If we change all the antimacassars around we could put the first class in its rightful place. Few 'normal' punters know what the yellow stripe means anyway. At least then we could have every unit consistent too.
 

Skimble19

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I suggested that to an RPI who said it was a good idea. Given GTR is allergic to signs, you could put the antimacassars wherever you like.

Why just select one part of the train? You could dot them around the seats randomly, or only put them on aisle seats...

Don't forget only the seats with the striped pattern have the Velcro at the top to stick them to ;)
 

adamedwards

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I wish I could exactly remember where it is, but somewhere south of the last Hadley Wood tunnel (nearest London) and on the way to New Barnet and Oakleigh Park - on the up slow - a 387 seems to go all over the place. It's rather uncomfortable.

This probably the embankment rather than the train. I get rough riding on the slow lines on all the other trains too. There was major work done here a few years back when it gave way.
 

Antman

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It's so annoying sitting on a train at King's Cross waiting to depart and keep hearing the door bleeps every time someone gets on, then a few seconds later the doors self-close, only to be opened up again almost immediately. 15 or 20 minutes of this is enough to do one's head in.

At least it deals with the issue of the thoughtless people who don't close the door behind them when it is the middle of winter.

And also when the driver doesn't close the doors when we (often) have to wait for a late Virgin East Coast to pass in front.
 
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jon0844

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This probably the embankment rather than the train. I get rough riding on the slow lines on all the other trains too. There was major work done here a few years back when it gave way.

It will clearly be the track that causes the problem, but I recall just how bad 377s were on anything less than perfect track.

Point is, other stock doesn't bounce and shake quite uncomfortably as the 387s do. First time it happens, you can be excused for thinking there's actually a defect on the train/track and something bad could be about to happen.

A bit like when people first hear the banging noises as you go through a neutral section.
 

Failed Unit

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Not sure if it is a diagrammed run but saw one today on the 1514 London - Cambridge service. I know some of the diagrams but 387s on fast Cambridge work.

Wonder what the passengers on that run think? I they all get a seat they may view it as an upgrade on a downgraded 365 they are used to. Don't get why the didn't leave the seat layout alone one the 365s.
 

bramling

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Not sure if it is a diagrammed run but saw one today on the 1514 London - Cambridge service. I know some of the diagrams but 387s on fast Cambridge work.

Wonder what the passengers on that run think? I they all get a seat they may view it as an upgrade on a downgraded 365 they are used to. Don't get why the didn't leave the seat layout alone one the 365s.

My guess is it was to create two rows of priority seats which I believe require extra, perhaps a mandated minimum, legroom pitch.

Of course, regulars are surprisingly quick to spot these sorts of things, so as legroom is something people value on busy services, guess which seats are now extra quick to be taken on a busy service, thus *reducing* their availability to the people they're intended to benefit?

The above is informed speculation, but I can't think of any other logical reason for doing it.

It creates a lot of squabbles especially at weekends, for example when a family turn up at King's Cross at the last moment and expect to find a table seat, then starting a conflict when they arrogantly expect a lone person to move.
 

jon0844

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It creates a lot of squabbles especially at weekends, for example when a family turn up at King's Cross at the last moment and expect to find a table seat, then starting a conflict when they arrogantly expect a lone person to move.

I moved today from a table to let people sit together, and they were somewhat shocked. I asked them, however (was on my own, so I didn't care either way). Not so sure I'd have responded as well if asked in a demanding fashion.

[sarcasm]Walking through first class, it seems that GTR has done a great job with these. Clearly they're selling loads of first class tickets now going by how crowded first is. Even at 9pm.[/sarcasm]

Seen the first RPI now wearing the new 'passenger host' badge. Came through from FPK to KGX, so the train was near empty by then - but I am sure he had some fun in first class!
 

Skimble19

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My guess is it was to create two rows of priority seats which I believe require extra, perhaps a mandated minimum, legroom pitch.

Of course, regulars are surprisingly quick to spot these sorts of things, so as legroom is something people value on busy services, guess which seats are now extra quick to be taken on a busy service, thus *reducing* their availability to the people they're intended to benefit?

The above is informed speculation, but I can't think of any other logical reason for doing it.

It creates a lot of squabbles especially at weekends, for example when a family turn up at King's Cross at the last moment and expect to find a table seat, then starting a conflict when they arrogantly expect a lone person to move.

At the time the refurbishment was started (so around 3 years ago now) I believe it was also mentioned that it was to make the layout closer to that of the 700s, I.e less bays and more airline.

It is a shame however that the bays weren't moved to the middle of the carriage as there are now far more seats facing one direction than the other.
 

D365

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My guess is it was to create two rows of priority seats which I believe require extra, perhaps a mandated minimum, legroom pitch.

Of course, regulars are surprisingly quick to spot these sorts of things, so as legroom is something people value on busy services, guess which seats are now extra quick to be taken on a busy service, thus *reducing* their availability to the people they're intended to benefit?

The clue is in the name, priority seats means that able occupants should move.
 

Hadders

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At the time the refurbishment was started (so around 3 years ago now) I believe it was also mentioned that it was to make the layout closer to that of the 700s, I.e less bays and more airline.

It is a shame however that the bays weren't moved to the middle of the carriage as there are now far more seats facing one direction than the other.

The refresh of the 365s was a dumbing down to prepare us for the 700s. No carpet, harsh lighting, airline seats.

I get that priority seats are needed but why not remove a row of seats and at the same time increase the amount of standing area nearer to the doors? This wouldn't have needed the whole ambience of the train to have been ruined which is what they ended up doing.

I suppose we should be grateful that they didn't remove the seat back tables...
 

jon0844

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It's not so easy to tell you're in a priority seat, and the stickers showing you are sitting in one seem to be gradually getting peeled off.

They might wish to use stickers that are a bit stickier!
 
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phoenixcronin

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Not sure if it is a diagrammed run but saw one today on the 1514 London - Cambridge service. I know some of the diagrams but 387s on fast Cambridge work.

Wonder what the passengers on that run think? I they all get a seat they may view it as an upgrade on a downgraded 365 they are used to. Don't get why the didn't leave the seat layout alone one the 365s.
Will the GN 387s ever get their doors repainted blue? I think it would look very nice.
 

physics34

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Will the GN 387s ever get their doors repainted blue? I think it would look very nice.

will certainly make sense... and it could just be done using vinyls.... just as southeastern has done to its 377/5s.

GTR currently though are not keen on spending any money at the moment though
 

D365

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Was the Great Northern Railway rolling stock not primarily green in colour?
 

387star

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When does the loaned to gatwick express white 387/1 return to great northern ?
 
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