May 17 timetable changes

HarleyDavidson · 20 Mar 2017

PHILIPE said:
Look here on RTT

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea.../0000-2359?stp=WVSC&show=all&order=wtt&toc=GW

They are also in Journey Planner on NRE Site but which only goes up to June 3rd at the moment.

They're only from Newquay to Pad, not Pad TO Newquay.

I think that they'll find to their cost that a Sprinter that connects off of the 1st one down to Penzance simply won't cut the mustard, because I've done the Pad to Newquay run as a day trip twice and that was rammed all of the way and that was a full HST 9 set, every seat was taken + full & standing.

I think that GWR have made a horrible mistake taking that first one down away from Newquay & sending it to Penzance instead on a summer Saturday. It would be better if they used the Sprinter from Par to go to Penzance & back to connect into the HST from Newquay. Still it's their train set, let them find out the hard way.

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PHILIPE · 20 Mar 2017

HarleyDavidson said:
They're only from Newquay to Pad, not Pad TO Newquay.

I think that they'll find to their cost that a Sprinter that connects off of the 1st one down to Penzance simply won't cut the mustard, because I've done the Pad to Newquay run as a day trip twice and that was rammed all of the way and that was a full HST 9 set, every seat was taken + full & standing.

I think that GWR have made a horrible mistake taking that first one down away from Newquay & sending it to Penzance instead on a summer Saturday. It would be better if they used the Sprinter from Par to go to Penzance & back to connect into the HST from Newquay. Still it's their train set, let them find out the hard way.

I've just found the 1135 Paddington to Newquay on Journey Planner

brompton rail · 20 Mar 2017

All the XC Newquay Class 1 trains are timed as Voyagers, but strangely the two Plymouth workings are timed for HSTs! Of course, all XC Newquay services are Voyagers.

mikestone1952 · 20 Mar 2017

TPE are running a later Manchester Airport - Glasgow and return. The northbound train is showing as a 19.00 departure in RTT, a path also used by Northern.

Starmill · 20 Mar 2017

It was reported some time ago that TPE wanted to take over the 1900 from Manchester Airport from Northern and extend it to Glasgow. Similarly they might run a later Glasgow to Manchester service than 1709.

pacenotes · 20 Mar 2017

Are they extending the new electric trains to Maidenhead as planned in May?

louis97 · 20 Mar 2017

brompton rail said:
All the XC Newquay Class 1 trains are timed as Voyagers, but strangely the two Plymouth workings are timed for HSTs! Of course, all XC Newquay services are Voyagers.

Indeed, no XC HSTs to Newquay this year. That HST set on a Saturday now works 1V58 0900 Glasgow to Penzance, including the service to Glasgow and back from Penzance to Plymouth. On a Sunday the 1225 from Plymouth is now a HST, with the double voyager forming the Newquay - with attachment at Plymouth so only a single voyager in Cornwall.

Wilts Wanderer · 20 Mar 2017

HarleyDavidson said:
They're only from Newquay to Pad, not Pad TO Newquay.

I think that they'll find to their cost that a Sprinter that connects off of the 1st one down to Penzance simply won't cut the mustard, because I've done the Pad to Newquay run as a day trip twice and that was rammed all of the way and that was a full HST 9 set, every seat was taken + full & standing.

I think that GWR have made a horrible mistake taking that first one down away from Newquay & sending it to Penzance instead on a summer Saturday. It would be better if they used the Sprinter from Par to go to Penzance & back to connect into the HST from Newquay. Still it's their train set, let them find out the hard way.

I've got some reliable inside info on this one.

I think you will find that things have changed quite noticeably over the past 2 years. Quoting a 2+9 formation dates your trip to at least 3 years ago, pretty sure that's the last time the HSTs conveyed the extra TGS on Newquay diagrams. Since then, summer SO traffic by train to Newquay has literally fallen off a cliff edge, thanks mainly to ticket prices being undercut by a certain budget airline operating from (I believe) Southend. The passenger counts from 2016 indicated loading not exceeding 200 even on the 1135 Padd-Newquay on the branch, and one train in particular arriving at the resort with about 35 pax. These are data from August summer holiday dates.

At the same time, Cornish main line traffic goes from strength to strength and some trains are creaking at the seams. As the 0735 Padd-Newquay and 1319 Newquay-Padd were added to the timetable within the last 10 years to relieve the ACE, it seems logical that GWR would choose to divert the resources where it is needed most. Last year the 0928 Exeter-Penzance Sprinter was leaving passengers behind at most stations after Plymouth hence why it has been swapped with the Newquay path.

(Also note; the 0946 Exeter-Newquay and 1323 Newquay-Plymouth will connect with the HSTs at Par and are diagrammed a 4-car sprinter, capacity 300+ so it shouldn't be overcooked on the branch.)

MatthewRead · 20 Mar 2017

louis97 said:
Indeed, no XC HSTs to Newquay this year. That HST set on a Saturday now works 1V58 0900 Glasgow to Penzance, including the service to Glasgow and back from Penzance to Plymouth. On a Sunday the 1225 from Plymouth is now a HST, with the double voyager forming the Newquay - with attachment at Plymouth so only a single voyager in Cornwall.

Why???? the HST's are supposed to be there for crowd busting.

Wilts Wanderer · 20 Mar 2017

I think the point being that crowds to Newquay by rail are (sadly) a thing of the past, and both TOCs have independently come to the same conclusion.

Jonny · 21 Mar 2017

Wilts Wanderer said:
I think the point being that crowds to Newquay by rail are (sadly) a thing of the past, and both TOCs have independently come to the same conclusion.

It might not be that way in a few years' time, though; given a weak pound and possible Brexit outcomes I think that domestic destinations such as Newquay might be about to undergo a resurgence.

mikestone1952 · 21 Mar 2017

Starmill said:
It was reported some time ago that TPE wanted to take over the 1900 from Manchester Airport from Northern and extend it to Glasgow. Similarly they might run a later Glasgow to Manchester service than 1709.

Yes, but that leaves an hour's gap in the service from Bolton to Preston.

Wilts Wanderer · 21 Mar 2017

Jonny said:
It might not be that way in a few years' time, though; given a weak pound and possible Brexit outcomes I think that domestic destinations such as Newquay might be about to undergo a resurgence.

In which case in a few years time the through IC service might be undergoing a revival with Cl.802 services to/from Padd

(It doesn't detract from the airline competition however...)

Wilts Wanderer · 21 Mar 2017

pacenotes said:
Are they extending the new electric trains to Maidenhead as planned in May?

In May certain services between Paddington and Maidenhead will go over to 387 operation, with a further tranche in July when the carriage sidings are commissioned. I suspect this has been covered in detail by other threads.

Just to note, this does not involve extending any Hayes & Harlington services to Maidenhead, this has been a myth floating around for some time. The Hayes shuttles will remain as-now until May 2018 when they are taken over by the Elizabeth line and extended to Heathrow.

NSE · 21 Mar 2017

WhiteHartLane said:
Also remember WHL loses AGA services from May-17 until Aug-17 on matchday diversions and Northumberland Park also for matchday services non diversion.

That's not really timetable change is it. That's just the end of the football season.

Bletchleyite · 21 Mar 2017

DarloRich said:
Perhaps. However, I wouldn't like to bet on that. Numbers of London bound commuters seem to be low. Perhaps the timetable change will drive out unprecedented numbers of London season tickets...........

Not sure. What I do know is that the 0700 used to be the 0711 (LBZ-WFJ-EUS) which was an absolutely perfectly timed train for commuting to much of zone 1 particularly for those who wanted the City but not to have to cram onto the Northern Line. It moved back to 0700 but is still very popular.

But then other than say Bow Brickhill and Fenny I'd have thought most people wanting the City would go via Bedford and Thameslink, I would.

Ash Bridge · 21 Mar 2017

Jonny said:
It might not be that way in a few years' time, though; given a weak pound and possible Brexit outcomes I think that domestic destinations such as Newquay might be about to undergo a resurgence.

I don't think Newquay (like most Cornish holiday resorts) struggles to attract tourists/holidaymakers, the trouble these days is some of the types it attracts (unlike the other Cornish destinations) but the problem for TOCs is the fact that it's located at the end of a long and tediously slow branchline on top of an already long distance journey and that's before factoring in the competition from the budget airlines, coach inclusive holidays, private car etc. I do agree with your Brexit point though! I wonder how this will affect the many tourists from other European countries such as Holland, Germany etc that I witness every time I'm down there?

PHILIPE · 21 Mar 2017

Ash Bridge said:
I don't think Newquay (like most Cornish holiday resorts) struggles to attract tourists/holidaymakers, the trouble these days is some of the types it attracts (unlike the other Cornish destinations) but the problem for TOCs is the fact that it's located at the end of a long and tediously slow branchline on top of an already long distance journey and that's before factoring in the competition from the budget airlines, coach inclusive holidays, private car etc. I do agree with your Brexit point though! I wonder how this will affect the many tourists from other European countries such as Holland, Germany etc that I witness every time I'm down there?

The former times tradition of holidays at the seaside from Saturday to Saturday has largely disappeared now.

Kite159 · 21 Mar 2017

Agreed regarding Newquay, IIRC it takes roughly an hour to cover the ~ 21 miles, it be one slow line in places.

Add in the competition from the budget airlines, plus roads which are probably quicker depending where you are starting from.

Ash Bridge · 21 Mar 2017

PHILIPE said:
The former times tradition of holidays at the seaside from Saturday to Saturday has largely disappeared now.

I agree, lots of people prefer a series of shorter break 2,3 or 4 nights or long weekends spread through the year rather than full blown 1-2 weeks type holidays and not just within UK, although personally I would still prefer a proper long getaway, and the booking systems of the self catering holiday outfits all still accommodate this, I guess this must make me a traditionalist

Ash Bridge · 21 Mar 2017

Kite159 said:
Agreed regarding Newquay, IIRC it takes roughly an hour to cover the ~ 21 miles, it be one slow line in places.

Add in the competition from the budget airlines, plus roads which are probably quicker depending where you are starting from.

Yes, we stay near Tintagel & Boscastle and travel down from Stockport arriving at Exeter St Davids in around 3:50 hrs which is a very respectable journey time, pickup a rental car at the station and another hour and 15 mins we're in North Cornwall, Exeter is by far the better railhead for us than any of the Cornish options.

kieron · 22 Mar 2017

DarloRich said:
I am citing being a user of the train every day and watching where the passengers go. At Bletchley most go to the MK platform or leave the station. It is entirely anecdotal but then no study has been commissioned on passenger numbers so it is as good as you will get.

Thanks. The reason I ask is because I've seen quite a lot of cases where the results of a survey or traffic count or whatever are assumed by someone to mean one thing, whereas there are other reasonable interpretations of it.

The obvious shortcoming of talking to current passengers is that it ignores the people who drive to a WCML station because the connections from the branch are poor. I would imagine that this change will affect the N/S split of these people over time, and so affect how the average user of that train feels about connections from it.

Whatever happens, I hope the service change is well advertised for the benefit of all those who could be affected by it.

berneyarms · 22 Mar 2017

The northbound Saturdays Only loco hauled service on the Cornish mainline this summer will start at St Erth at 10:28, instead of Par, having run ECS from Long Rock Depot.

MatthewRead · 22 Mar 2017

berneyarms said:
The northbound Saturdays Only loco hauled service on the Cornish mainline this summer will start at St Erth at 10:28, instead of Par, having run ECS from Long Rock Depot.

This will probably be for the last time as next year there should be enough mini HST's to provide an adequate summer Saturday service without the need for any loco hauled sets.

FenMan · 22 Mar 2017

The 19:13 Gatwick - Reading has gone missing in the new NDL timetable, which would create a 2 hour service gap.

I suspect this is an omission as the preceding service to Gatwick arrives at 19:00 as normal.

Wilts Wanderer · 24 Mar 2017

Network Rail.have had data issues uploading NDL timetable this year.

Greybeard33 · 24 Mar 2017

Starmill said:
It was reported some time ago that TPE wanted to take over the 1900 from Manchester Airport from Northern and extend it to Glasgow. Similarly they might run a later Glasgow to Manchester service than 1709.

mikestone1952 said:
Yes, but that leaves an hour's gap in the service from Bolton to Preston.

RTT and NRE currently show both the existing Northern 1900 Manchester Airport to Preston and the new TPE 1900 Manchester Airport to Glasgow after the May change. Clearly they cannot both occupy the same path from the Airport to Oxford Road, so I suspect Northern is "behind the curve" with its timetable update.

At the moment, Northern borrows an extra 185 from TPE specifically for the 1900 to Preston. This unit then returns from Preston to the Airport joined to the 1940 Blackpool North to Airport and goes back to TPE. So I guess Northern is not in a strong bargaining position if it wants to oppose TPE taking over the path!

The Glasgow service will run non-stop from Oxford Road to Preston via Golborne, so Bolton, Horwich Parkway and Chorley will all lose a service to Preston. But there is a Manchester Victoria to Blackpool North stopping service behind, which arrives at Preston only 17 minutes later. Passengers for Horwich Parkway or Chorley from Piccadilly/Oxford Road will have to leave 14 minutes earlier and change at Bolton, while passengers for Bolton can take the 1904 Airport to Southport.

RTT shows an additional TPE 1847 departure from Glasgow, arriving at the Airport 2248.

Starmill · 25 Mar 2017

1847 from Glasgow? Seven minutes behind the London Euston service? Great. Has a s**** path too. The 1840 takes 1h07 to get to Carlisle non-stop. The 1847 will take 1h42, with one stop at Lockerbie. It doesn't reach Manchester Piccadilly until 2234, whereas the connection from the 1840 gets there at 2157. I guess its of benefit for passengers from Glasgow to Lockerbie or Penrith, or Carlisle to Penrith but...

Greybeard33 · 25 Mar 2017

Starmill said:
1847 from Glasgow? Seven minutes behind the London Euston service? Great. Has a s**** path too. The 1840 takes 1h07 to get to Carlisle non-stop. The 1847 will take 1h42, with one stop at Lockerbie. It doesn't reach Manchester Piccadilly until 2234, whereas the connection from the 1840 gets there at 2157. I guess its of benefit for passengers from Glasgow to Lockerbie or Penrith, or Carlisle to Penrith but...

According to NRE, the arrival time at Piccadilly will be 2232 not 2234. The overall 4h journey time from Glasgow to Manchester Airport will be 23 minutes slower than for the existing 1709 last service.

For many travellers, particularly to an airport, the convenience of a direct service is more important than journey time. And, for the 1840 VTWC departure, the 1h10 Preston to Airport leg is on a Northern 156 with no seat reservations, no catering facilities and no first class.

70014IronDuke · 25 Mar 2017

bunnahabhain said:
I believe the only station call is at Bingham, however I stand to be corrected.

Hmmm. Interesting. Any service enhancement is good, of course, but I wouldn't have thought there would be many passengers on such a limited-stop service on a Sunday morning, nor would they be particularly put out by inserting a few more stops on at least some of the trains that might significantly increase patronage.

bunnahabhain said:
There used to be one, 2305 Nottingham to Grantham, it was withdrawn many years ago because it cost more money in cleaning up the damaged trains, staff and passengers than it ever made and was resulting in a unit being put out of service the next day for repairs/deep clean.

The perils of running post-closing time passenger services. I wonder if Joe Public realises the hidden costs of such anti-social behaviour?

May 17 timetable changes

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