I fully accept that London commuting is the exception, largely a captive market, although there is significant commuting by bus or coach, because they are cheaper. But for the rest of the UK, and for intercity traffic, rail has usually been one of several options, and often a minor player.
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Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal
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When I used to catch a bus from Crouch End to Finsbury Park in the early 80s there was no conductor on board; they probably came off in London before elsewhere if anything.
Deepgreen
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Meanwhile, evidence of what has been occupying Southern management's minds recently came to light yesterday; 377311 has been repainted and now carries a revised logo. The new one has lime green in place of the old colour (which used to match the livery) and white writing with a shadow effect for the bar. I wonder how much that revision cost in consultants' fees!
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tsr
Established Member
One unit - might be 377311, can't remember - has been like that for a couple of weeks. I saw it earlier in the month (I think) at East Croydon.
No doubt some agency was commissioned to produce that!
they pay someone from outside to apply vinyl stickers too!
I noticed that very subtle lol
I think you'll find the vast majority of the major public transport operators use outside contractors for that sort of work these days
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Goldfish62
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Yes, it's a specialist job and tricky to get right.
And also arguably a distraction from the core business of (trying to) run a train service to do that sort of thing in-house. Is likely cheaper to go to an outside agency to do it.
313103
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But of course it's cheaper as it means the staff employed by these outside contractors are entitled to nothing that is provided by the toc to its own employees and the majority of these staff are on at best minimum wage at worse on zero hours. However I apologise as I have taken this thread off course from its original context.
313103
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Not sure if talks are planned or even worthwhile at this conjuncture. I cannot answer the second point of your question though.
What alternative do you suggest?
Goldfish62
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Further apologies for continuing off topic with, but you've made a statement without any basis in fact then try to shut down the debate. What evidence do you have that a contractor's staff would be on minimum wage /zero hours? It's just plain nonsense. These people are highly skilled signage suppliers who work on a lot more things than just applying vinyls to trains. They'd probably be paid less employed by a TOC.
On topic, am I right that the SN dispute is effectively over? If the management can run nearly all its trains on a RMT strike day, it's just a matter of waiting until the remaining strikers fade away, isn't it? As far as ASLEF is concerned, as they are not striking, and would gain nothing by doing so, that's the end of it, isn't it? Those that are at odds, and not much of odds, with their own union, would be unable to force a strike, wouldn't they?
One other point, is management implementing installation of much-improved sighting equipment, etc, already? It would serve the management case very well, if this were done, and the opposite if they drag their heels.
One other point, is management implementing installation of much-improved sighting equipment, etc, already? It would serve the management case very well, if this were done, and the opposite if they drag their heels.
Talks tomorrow and Tuesday
Two weeks notice needs to be given for industrial action so no is the answer to second question.
Northern in talks on Tuesday also
bengley
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7 days notice as it's an existing dispute
Can a long running industrial dispute continue indefinitely, or is another ballot eventually required by law after a certain period?
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tsr
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That was always part of the original ideas mooted to staff transferring to the role, including parts of some example OBS diagrams... and in any case was already in conductor contracts (minus specific mention of the penalty fares, it must be said) for many years anyway, not to mention having once been part of the routine tasks of many of Southern's revenue staff.
It was just something which was either never really utilised for conductors - indeed, actively discouraged at times, which I believe was principally for accounting purposes - and which has also never seen much light of day across all those staff now in the OBS role.
From a personal point of view, I would rather as many OBSs as needed were primarily deployed on board trains (where staff assistance and enforcement would otherwise be more scarce than at many stations), but I am all for staff sitting around on Cover or Spare turns to be used for station revenue duties. There's still a reasonable amount of that at Southern, which can be very beneficial for prompt action on uncovered duties, but could still perhaps be improved on at times.
If done at major stations, with the correct safeguards in place (and we'd have to see about that! The cynic will rejoice...) there is every chance that OBSs would actually be closer to trains requiring relief crew anyway, as many of the stations in most need of assistance are also those where crews regularly change over, or nearby.
313103
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My apologies regarding signwriters (it appears i jumped the gun and for that i apologise). I misinterpreted the discussion to mean contracting out in regards of cleaners etc and not this specific item. For that i am sorry i have had a look at a couple of signwriting companies and yes they do pay more then minimum wage starting at around £18,000 and upwards of around £35,000 so for that statement i made i was wrong.
With regards of trying to shut down debate/discussion i have been warned to only speak on topic and not to speak off topic as i have been banned for going off topic, so i try to stick rigidly to what the forum thread is directly about and to stay within the rules of forum.
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I don't object to the idea of checking tickets at stations nor issuing penalty fares, except that is not how the role was sold to passengers. I am not sure that issuing penalty fares features as an aspect of customer service passengers want, especially when on some lines there is a belief you can buy tickets on the train. Well its not a belief, most of the time its a fact!
There does appear to be a need to do more ticket checking as that has in my experience reduced since the dispute started.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
It is remiss of me not to have recommended the columns of Dr B Ching ( of private eye) on this topic to the house before now - good quality and insightful commentary
The strike at magnet in darlo lasted for years
The strike at magnet in darlo lasted for years
All Line Rover
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I expect consistent ticket checks which ensure that passengers (i) have a ticket (ii) of the correct class. But so long as a ticket is not a clear case of dough-nutting, I would not expect penalty fares to be issued by staff who do not specialise in ticketing. The knowledge of RPIs can be bad enough.
tsr
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It is no secret that many Southern stations were (fairly) recently added to the PF scheme, and in reaction to a theoretical enhancement in said scheme, all stations gained a TVM at the very least, to allow passengers to prove intent to buy the right ticket before boarding; though stations such as those previously without any ticketing facilities are often those where it is still possible to buy onboard without hindrance anyway, and also those where TVM faults are resolved less frequently.
This has led to an unclear situation for passengers from a "payment culture" point of view, added to the fact that even the trained ex-revenue grade OBSs generally haven't issued PFs since early winter, and the fact that no change in policy on how to treat those buying on board seems to have been distributed to those retained as conductors.
Passenger Hosts, ie. rebadged revenue staff employed on the GTR routes under the TL & GN branding, occasionally make an appearance on roving patrols which take them around the Southern network, and definitely do still issue Penalty Fares, undertake MG11s, etc. This is a bit of a culture shock to passengers, though not unwarranted in some situations.
From a customer service point of view, it's my view that an enhanced policy is most certainly needed for revenue protection, and this may also pay back a return of reduced levels of antisocial behaviour, which improves the environment for customers as much as anything! I believe I once mentioned my observations on here that the difference in a regular and irregular staff presence was best seen by comparing late night and overnight services run by either Southern or Thameslink (formerly FCC, of course) on the BML corridor, and the improved environment and security visibly provided by a dedicated member of onboard staff such as a conductor was a great advertisement for them. This sort of reason is one of the pointers towards (at the very least) rostered onboard staff of some description.
Issuing penalty fares at stations could theoretically allow greater familiarity of OBSs with dealing with ticketless passengers, with whom some may well have felt uncomfortable until now, particularly new entrants - or ex-revenue staff not used to sticking to a dedicated train, or lone working! This could then be extended to their diagrams on trains, with guidelines on "when to stop" if they'd be otherwise unable to work the train safely. I'm not convinced it would be easy to devise such a solution, particularly given how closely-packed the station calls and passenger requirements are on some of the trains OBSs do work on.
There are signs that the revenue culture on the Southern network may change to include greater deterrents. There are mutterings about conductors being able to issue PFs on Envoy at some undefined future point, with OBSs presumably being able to do them electronically before then, and of course GTR's sister company Southeastern has recently switched to a policy of only selling full-price Anytime fares on the train, which is very slightly impacting Redhill to Tonbridge Line services.
All this being said - and I wish to use my words carefully - I can see that it would require great talent to reintroduce robust deterrents to passengers boarding trains without tickets, and sadly I suppose it may be seen that the GTR franchise may not readily attract that sort of skill! I think passengers should be ready for more severe penalties for not actively buying a ticket at the first opportunity, though. Ticketless travel from these people may become more common as trains get longer and busier, so those who thought they could buy on board don't end up doing so, and therefore work out that they'll probably get away without paying anyway. There's also every chance that a lack of enforcement could attract a general culture of lawlessness, which is most unwelcome!
Oh right cheers, so basically its down to both sides to agree however long it takes,
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the sniper
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Anything that helps encourage high '(un)natural wastage' to get former Guards off the payroll will satisfy the raison d'etre for the OBS grade. Turning spare turns from being one the best things about the job you've done into what many might consider to be the worst aspect's is ideal!
tsr
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Anything that helps encourage high '(un)natural wastage' to get former Guards off the payroll will satisfy the raison d'etre for the OBS grade. Turning spare turns from being one the best things about the job you've done into what many might consider to be the worst aspect's is ideal!
For a long time, many people really haven't considered it to be the best thing at Southern. One or two days here and there at a good TOC and/or decent messroom are really nice, but a combination of going through several imposed reduced timetables where everyone was sitting around, poor morale and chronic messroom moaning do not a happy cover turn make!
There are plenty of people I've heard say "I wish they'd just give me an Avantix and let me go and queue-bust", and I suspect the attitude to standing around on a gateline waiting for the odd ticketless passenger (obviously of the sort who doesn't just vault the barriers anyway) would be much the same.
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Robertj21a
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Yet again, I find myself applauding the clarity of your explanations. Many thanks. You wouldn't care to take on the role of spokesman for the RMT I suppose.........
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