Another driver asleep on Croydon Tramlink

southern442 · 20 May 2017

I don't want to make this sound like some sort of conspiracy, however events on the tram network as of late have got me thinking. The accident was caused by the driver 'blacking out', plus there have been several incidents filmed or reported both before and after the derailment. Whilst TfL did claim full responsibility, they responded by reducing the speed limit on that stretch of line. To me this seems like almost a PR thing, them reducing the speed limit to distract from the real problem of overworked drivers.

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FordFocus · 20 May 2017

The third incident in a year? I know we're in the mobile video era now with more reports like this coming but I'd seriously have a look at the fatigue risk of the operations of light rail schemes like these.

U-Bahnfreund · 20 May 2017

It could also have been a medicial issue, just on Thursday a tram driver in Bremen, Germany died while driving a tram. ‘Luckily’ the tram was not in service at the time. http://www.weser-kurier.de/bremen/b...ahnfahrer-stirbt-im-dienst-_arid,1600700.html

bramling · 20 May 2017

Dave1987 said:
With modern day society and the public wanting services to run from the very early hours of the morning to very late at night fatigue is always going to be an issue for those that work in industry that provides those services. People who work office hours Monday to Friday have that wonderful thing called a body clock. People who work varied shift patterns who swap constantly do not. Who is to say this chap did not have a good night sleep because his child was ill? Jumping to conclusions and demanding he be locked up is utterly ridiculous. It should be investigated properly and appropriate action taken.

Absolutely 100%. Those who work shifts will know that on occasions it can be impossible to guarantee being fully rested, no matter how hard one tries. Good rosters and shift patterns help, but even this is no guarantee.

bramling · 20 May 2017

southern442 said:
I don't want to make this sound like some sort of conspiracy, however events on the tram network as of late have got me thinking. The accident was caused by the driver 'blacking out', plus there have been several incidents filmed or reported both before and after the derailment. Whilst TfL did claim full responsibility, they responded by reducing the speed limit on that stretch of line. To me this seems like almost a PR thing, them reducing the speed limit to distract from the real problem of overworked drivers.

At the end of the day I think politically "something" had to be done before that stretch of line could be re-opened.

The change to speed limits doesn't really address the issue of a driver who has "lost awareness", as it doesn't provide any engineered safeguard to stop a driver who (for whatever reason) isn't complying with the speed limit. It will help in certain situations, for example someone who has got their location confused, but it won't help at all if the driver has lost consciousness but the deadman device has failed to trigger.

But, of course, the line would have been shut for ages if it had been decided that an engineered safeguard was required. I don't envy the person who had to make the decision, as there's no right or wrong answer, just a case of weighing up degrees of risk.

WatcherZero · 20 May 2017

Its worth mentioning there are actually 4 different investigations under way in to the Croydon accident;

Standard RAIB investigation.
Independent SNC-Lavalin investigation commissioned by Tfl, originally was going to publish ahead of RAIB but now being geared to act as a response to the RAIB report.
BTP investigation into criminality of the driver.
ORR investigation into possible health and safety breaches.

InOban · 20 May 2017

Apologies if I am repeating something said earlier, but I understood that there was eye-scanning technology which could detect when a driver or pilot was losing focus, anticipating actual sleep. It's been driven by the number of fatal accidents caused by truck drivers dropping off.

Robertj21a · 20 May 2017

I wonder if the other Tramlink drivers feel the same tiredness or whether, for instance, it's actually just the younger ones - who may have young children keeping them awake, may be more stressed re finances/mortgage etc - or they simply go out regularly at night 'clubbing' and socialising ?

endecotp · 20 May 2017

Dave1987 said:
Who is to say this chap did not have a good night sleep because his child was ill?

If it were something like that, he should have called in sick.

And, as I've said before, the rules / procedures / etc. should ensure that drivers face far more serious consequences for driving while unfit than for calling in sick.

GB · 20 May 2017

endecotp said:
If it were something like that, he should have called in sick.

And, as I've said before, the rules / procedures / etc. should ensure that drivers face far more serious consequences for driving while unfit than for calling in sick.

So unless you have had a perfect nights sleep you should call in sick?

In any case, shift work, especially when it involves very early starts can mess you up regardless of how much sleep you might have had.

Bellbell · 20 May 2017

bramling said:
Absolutely 100%. Those who work shifts will know that on occasions it can be impossible to guarantee being fully rested, no matter how hard one tries. Good rosters and shift patterns help, but even this is no guarantee.

Absolutely. I don't think people who don't work those hours have any understanding of what it's like - and that's entirely understandable. It sounds like tram drivers have worse conditions than we do on the rail network but even ours are brutal at times when it comes to fatigue. With the best will in the world you simply cannot replicate the kind of rest that people doing a M-F 9-5 job get. Personally I think any future pay agreements ought to focus more on reducing the working week/increasing annual leave than pay rises but that's just my own personal opinion.

Someone mentioned calling in sick if fatigued and yes, we should. It's not black and white though, sometimes it hits you later in the shift or you don't realise how tired you are until you do something that demonstrates it. Plus, companies are obviously trying to reduce sick leave and then of course there's the fact that either services get cancelled or a spare man who might also be tired gets used. Tricky.

Robertj21a · 20 May 2017

So, why does it seem to be Croydon, not Manchester, Sheffield, Nottingham etc ?

edwin_m · 20 May 2017

bramling said:
But, of course, the line would have been shut for ages if it had been decided that an engineered safeguard was required. I don't envy the person who had to make the decision, as there's no right or wrong answer, just a case of weighing up degrees of risk.

Given that Tramlink has been operating since 2000 with only one accident of this type, and similar light rail operations haven't had any, then it's reasonable to expect that another accident isn't imminent and it would be an over-reaction to close the network. If the enquiries conclude that the problem is with rostering causing undue fatigue, or some similar human issue, then any engineering safeguards wouldn't address the root cause. There could still be a serious accident caused by fatigue that engineering safeguards would not protect against, such as striking pedestrians or road vehicles in a shared area.

Having said that I have no doubt that at least one of the enquiries mentioned will be looking at fatigue issues on Tramlink and whether there is anything different on the other light rail networks that makes this type of accident less likely there or if it just random. If serious concerns are raised then these will be passed to the relevant operators immediately, rather than waiting for the report which may be delayed by any prosecutions.

rebmcr · 20 May 2017

jbc said:
Apparently people did knock on the glass?

Darandio said:
Yes, but it seems only after they got what they needed to send to the papers.

cjmillsnun said:
Exactly. And that could've been the difference between life and death had it actually been a medical issue.

This course of action might turn out to be the difference between life and another deathly collision, if it pressures reform on Tramlink's rostering practices.

Robertj21a · 20 May 2017

rebmcr said:
This course of action might turn out to be the difference between life and another deathly collision, if it pressures reform on Tramlink's rostering practices.

Only if it's the rostering found to be the most likely cause. It won't do much if it was found that these dozing drivers had all been at nightclubs until the early hours.

westcoaster · 20 May 2017

Could another issue be the cabs themselves, are they well ventilated, do they get very hot. Can the driver get up and move around, can they stand and drive or forced to sit.

Antman · 20 May 2017

Robertj21a said:
So, why does it seem to be Croydon, not Manchester, Sheffield, Nottingham etc ?

Do you really think the same problems don't happen elsewhere? Last years fatal accident has focused more attention on tramlink drivers, it probably went unnoticed in the past.

Antman · 20 May 2017

LeeLivery said:
As someone who works in Croydon, many people do think its unsafe.

Many reports of speeding by passengers before the crash and yesterday BBC London said they've had 4 Tramlink drivers telling them they've fallen asleep, and another saying he isn't surprised by this and believes most drivers have fallen asleep in their career. Drivers don't want to report fatigue and public confidence in the network is small right now, Tramlink clearly has problems. I'm afraid calling it scaremongering is just burying your head in the sand.

Of course it isn't, I travelled on tramlink today and do so regularly and I've never felt unsafe.

I suspect many tram and train drivers have fallen asleep at some point, possibly only for a few seconds? It's certainly not a problem unique to tramlink as you seem to think.

Antman · 20 May 2017

Robertj21a said:
Only if it's the rostering found to be the most likely cause. It won't do much if it was found that these dozing drivers had all been at nightclubs until the early hours.

And how likely is that?:roll:

philthetube · 20 May 2017

westcoaster said:
Could another issue be the cabs themselves, are they well ventilated, do they get very hot. Can the driver get up and move around, can they stand and drive or forced to sit.

All very good points, they should be designed with two big opening windows, I am not sure if they are but the modern way seems to be not and rely on ventilation, the recent issues with the central line driver driving with the cab door open seems to show what drivers prefer, but when you move forward, on the underground to 95/96/S stock there are no opening windows in the cab, despite unions pushing for them. I am not sure if trams and main line stocks are the same.

FileTrekker · 21 May 2017

jbc said:
[/B]

Isn't that a bit of a contradiction?

I suspect it has nothing to do with shift patterns and more to do with the monotony of the job. Driving a motor vehicle requires a lot more attention.

Not moreso than any other rail vehicle, surely?

Not one single other tramway has hit the headlines for this reason.

Antman · 21 May 2017

FileTrekker said:
Not moreso than any other rail vehicle, surely?

Not one single other tramway has hit the headlines for this reason.

Nor has Croydon since the fatal accident. Do you really think this problem has only just started or nobody noticed in the past when drivers were not under so much scrutiny?

edwin_m · 21 May 2017

IIRC the windows either side of the cab are openable but the windscreen is very large so probably quite a bit of heat gain if the sun is in the wrong place. I don't think there is cab aircon but maybe a fan.

As to the driver moving about, they have to change ends at every terminus which is a lot more often than on a long-distance train. Probably not much scope to move around in between.

kevjs · 21 May 2017

Robertj21a said:
So, why does it seem to be Croydon, not Manchester, Sheffield, Nottingham etc ?

The GREATER NOTTINGHAM LIGHT RAPID TRANSIT ADVISORY COMMITTEE minutes state

the minimum rest period for Nottingham Tram drivers is 14 hours between shifts. This
exceeds the 12 hours recommended by the Office of Rail and Road.

Obviously no idea what impact it has on the situation for the better or otherwise

http://committee.nottinghamcity.gov...ight Rapid Transit Advisory Committee.pdf?T=1

They also state that a review of speed limits and an increase of monitoring them was implemented after the accident in Croydon.

bramling · 21 May 2017

FileTrekker said:
Not moreso than any other rail vehicle, surely?

Not one single other tramway has hit the headlines for this reason.

One suspects that trams are a little more vulnerable than heavy rail vehicles, simply because heavy rail (including London Underground) has rather more safety devices both on board the train and also built into the signalling.

For example, a mainline train has the driver vigilance device, AWS and TPWS to name just a few, whilst LU has the tripcock system which is set up to monitor speed in identified high-risk locations, whilst some lines have continuous ATP.

Robertj21a · 21 May 2017

jbc said:
Do you really think the same problems don't happen elsewhere? Last years fatal accident has focused more attention on tramlink drivers, it probably went unnoticed in the past.

I don't know if the same problems happen elsewhere, hence the question. Do you know they do ?

Antman · 21 May 2017

Robertj21a said:
I don't know if the same problems happen elsewhere, hence the question. Do you know they do ?

Well let's have a guess..............?

The fact is we are all at risk of unintentionally falling asleep.

Clip · 22 May 2017

edwin_m said:
IIRC the windows either side of the cab are openable but the windscreen is very large so probably quite a bit of heat gain if the sun is in the wrong place. I don't think there is cab aircon but maybe a fan.

As to the driver moving about, they have to change ends at every terminus which is a lot more often than on a long-distance train. Probably not much scope to move around in between.

I do believe that they have sun blinds too so with that down and both windows open it should be no worse than being in a car. I have no idea about whether they have any aircon though.

A lot of people are speculating about not enough rest periods between shifts but no one has provided any evidence of what it is.

Domh245 · 22 May 2017

Clip said:
I do believe that they have sun blinds too so with that down and both windows open it should be no worse than being in a car. I have no idea about whether they have any aircon though.

A lot of people are speculating about not enough rest periods between shifts but no one has provided any evidence of what it is.

The cab side windows are only openable on the older CR4000s. The variobahns (which this incident, and the other recorded one from just after the crash, took place in) don't have opening windows, but do have aircon (as do the CR4000s)

BestWestern · 22 May 2017

FileTrekker said:
Not moreso than any other rail vehicle, surely?

Not one single other tramway has hit the headlines for this reason.

Less so, I would say. The frequent stopping pattern and the stretches of on-street running are likely to make tram driving less tedious than heavy rail driving.

Another driver asleep on Croydon Tramlink

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