Class 387 to GN

Failed Unit · 23 May 2017

TheDavibob said:
Thanks for clarifying, a shame.

Do the units turn at any point at all? Surely just fixing it at the London end (or even the other end, as long as it's consistent) of each 4-car unit would do the trick. I assume the very frequent coupling/decoupling is the main cause of the problems.

I don't think so. I think the reason they are in different directions was time on Thameslink.

Certainly the 365s, 321s (with 1 exception) and the 313s are all in the same direction the 317s changed about because they switched between WA and GN many years ago and were never all turned.

Understand the plan is to have FC at front of 4 coach set. If it ever happens we shall see. Low priority and niether first or gtr bothered on the 317s. (Although the walk was never as long). Don't expect to ever see a 387 when the queen is travelling to sandringham. Watch a 365 appear.

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bramling · 23 May 2017

Failed Unit said:
I don't think so. I think the reason they are in different directions was time on Thameslink.

Correct - and the fact that GTR didn't bother to turn them before arrival at Hornsey.

Failed Unit said:
Certainly the 365s, 321s (with 1 exception) and the 313s are all in the same direction the 317s changed about because they switched between WA and GN many years ago and were never all turned.

Correct again. Someone made the effort with the 321s (First Capital Connect weren't so bad after all!). Presumably it wasn't thought worth bothering with the 317s as the first class is in the middle. The 317s have been as they ended up from WAGN days, albeit with units occasionally turning when visiting Ilford for work.

It was *very* rare to see 365s facing wrong way, although it did occasionally happen. A couple of 321s faced the wrong way when they first arrived, but this was very quickly corrected. They were then correct until just before the end when one unit got turned.

Failed Unit said:
Understand the plan is to have FC at front of 4 coach set.

I don't think we've ever clarified exactly what is planned (if anything!) as I've heard conflicting messages emanating from reliable and less reliable sources. At the moment it's about 60/40 with the majority being at the country end, so who knows really. London end makes much more sense.

(But who cares as the new timetable has seen most of the services I use revert from 387s to 365s, so it's not really my problem any more!).

Failed Unit said:
Don't expect to ever see a 387 when the queen is travelling to sandringham. Watch a 365 appear.

Lol! Wouldn't be surprised at all. I wonder if she did experience 387s whether she would comment on the awful seating and poor ride quality, like most other users do.

bramling · 23 May 2017

TheDavibob said:
Is the First Class positioning reasonably sorted now? Those sound like the logical places for it (front and back of an 8-car, back of the then attached 4-car from Kings Lynn).

Nope, not at all. It roughly a 60/40 split country/London. So people used to standing on a particular spot on the platform better get used to the chaos this has been causing since these trains came over. Evidently GTR don't care, and don't rely on the PIS screens on the platform either - these quite often get it wrong.

KatieLouLou · 23 May 2017

bramling said:
Nope, not at all. It roughly a 60/40 split country/London. So people used to standing on a particular spot on the platform better get used to the chaos this has been causing since these trains came over. Evidently GTR don't care, and don't rely on the PIS screens on the platform either - these quite often get it wrong.

Are the trains themselves not all the same way round - certainly the coach with the pantograph coach always appears to be at the London end, regardless of whether 1st class is front or rear?

bramling · 23 May 2017

KatieLouLou said:
Are the trains themselves not all the same way round - certainly the coach with the pantograph coach always appears to be at the London end, regardless of whether 1st class is front or rear?

No, the trains are all laid out the same. If the first class is at the country end then the intermediate motor car will be the second car, whilst if the first class is at the London end then the intermediate motor will be the third car.

D365 · 23 May 2017

bramling said:
No, the trains are all laid out the same.

Has the first class issue been completely sorted then?

(Apologies, I haven't had time to keep up with discussions here recently)

bramling · 23 May 2017

D365 said:
Has the first class issue been completely sorted then?

(Apologies, I haven't had time to keep up with discussions here recently)

Well, it has been sorted for some of us with the new timetable, as we get our 365s back!

Unfortunately, as predicted, the issue has simply transferred to a different selection of services. The trains are laid out the same in that the first class is always in the same position within each unit. However we still have a situation where the units face different ways - roughly 60% of the units have the first class at the country end, and 40% have it at the London end. This also means the accessible toilet location varies too - evidently GTR don't care about that either.

(I think the accessible toilet location was the reason why an effort has always been made to keep the 365s facing the same way).

The other issues with the first class haven't been sorted either - it's in a stupid location, and there have evidently been loads of complaints about it. What's more, I'll place a little bet that there will be many more complaints from the Cambridge / Kings Lynn lot -- more first class users and more vociferous.

Failed Unit · 23 May 2017

Was on the 1822 ex-Kings cross - Cambridge this evening. 365s. Many passengers happy about this improvement. Hopefully we will see very few 387s on the local services now Kings Lynn have them.

MikeWM · 23 May 2017

Is there some unforseen issue with splitting the 387s at Cambridge, or are they just getting used to it so it will speed up in time?

My train home tonight was stopped at Cambridge for 11-12 minutes while dividing, and a quick glance through RTT for today shows pretty much all the trains throughout the day that divide were stuck at Cambridge for around 10 minutes, rather than the timetabled 5.

Failed Unit · 24 May 2017

Probably just bedding in. Doesn't seem to be an issue at WGC on the 1852 when it was a 387. Not sure about letchworth on the others.

notverydeep · 24 May 2017

Failed Unit said:
Was on the 1822 ex-Kings cross - Cambridge this evening. 365s. Many passengers happy about this improvement. Hopefully we will see very few 387s on the local services now Kings Lynn have them.

I was glad to see this too. The extra circa 100 seats meant no passengers in the front three coaches needed to stand (though one or two always do anyway).

Presumably this is a brief respite for this train until the 700s move in come the Autumn ahead of the Thameslink timetables in May and December 2018?

It is just a shame that 2T93 (the 0720 Cambridge North - King's Cross) and the other peak morning trains from WGC can't be 365s...

philjo · 24 May 2017

I was on the 07:09 from Letchworth this morning (05:51 from Kings Lynn) - 3x387.

previously there were some seats available when boarding at Letchworth when it was 3x365 but it was full and standing this morning. I walked back through 3 coaches - the only empty seats were in one of the 1st class sections.

Failed Unit · 24 May 2017

notverydeep said:
I was glad to see this too. The extra circa 100 seats meant no passengers in the front three coaches needed to stand (though one or two always do anyway).

Presumably this is a brief respite for this train until the 700s move in come the Autumn ahead of the Thameslink timetables in May and December 2018?

It is just a shame that 2T93 (the 0720 Cambridge North - King's Cross) and the other peak morning trains from WGC can't be 365s...

Hopefully when the 700s arrive people from Stevenage and further north will avoid these trains as they will get a seat on the faster services once they are all 12 car.

For interest the 0720 Cambridge north - Kings cross. How full is it leaving Stevenage? Heading north the services empty nicely upon leaving WGC. But the evening peak is never as bad anyway. Are people further north using it to get a seat rather than try the faster ex-Peterborough / Kings Lynn (in the case of letchworth) services? I often use the WGC starters in the morning for a seat. I am sure people using them further down the line would be happier if people like me could get on the faster trains. More seats for them.

bramling · 24 May 2017

Failed Unit said:
Hopefully when the 700s arrive people from Stevenage and further north will avoid these trains as they will get a seat on the faster services once they are all 12 car.

For interest the 0720 Cambridge north - Kings cross. How full is it leaving Stevenage? Heading north the services empty nicely upon leaving WGC. But the evening peak is never as bad anyway. Are people further north using it to get a seat rather than try the faster ex-Peterborough / Kings Lynn (in the case of letchworth) services? I often use the WGC starters in the morning for a seat. I am sure people using them further down the line would be happier if people like me could get on the faster trains. More seats for them.

Of the three up services which were previously 2x317, from experience:

1) The first of the three was fairly empty at Hitchin (especially towards the rear), took on a small number at Hitchin, more at Stevenage, but filled heavily at Knebworth and Welwyn North, but still arriving at Welwyn GC with a fair few seats available.

2) The second of the three was modestly located arriving at Hitchin probably with at least one person in every bay of four/six seats. By the time of arrival at Welwyn GC most seats would be taken.

3) The third of the three was somewhere in between the two.

All three would be emptier on Fridays or during school holidays.

Does that tie in with your own experience?

notverydeep · 24 May 2017

bramling said:
Of the three up services which were previously 2x317, from experience:

1) The first of the three was fairly empty at Hitchin (especially towards the rear), took on a small number at Hitchin, more at Stevenage, but filled heavily at Knebworth and Welwyn North, but still arriving at Welwyn GC with a fair few seats available.

2) The second of the three was modestly located arriving at Hitchin probably with at least one person in every bay of four/six seats. By the time of arrival at Welwyn GC most seats would be taken.

3) The third of the three was somewhere in between the two.

All three would be emptier on Fridays or during school holidays.

Does that tie in with your own experience?

This is consistent with my experience at WGC. I am guessing they end up several groups of passengers:
1) Passengers from the 'village' stations on the Cambridge Branch who don't then interchange for faster services at for example Royston.
2) Passengers from the Cambridge branch travelling to Finsbury Park rather than King's Cross.
3) Passengers from Knebworth, Welwyn North and WGC travelling to Finsbury Park or King's Coss, where these are the fast trains (aside from the odd faster service at Knebworth and Welwyn North that are non-stop to King's Cross).
4) Passengers travelling from the Cambridge branch whose destination is employment in Stevenage or WGC (or Hatfield interchanging at WGC in the up direction.
5) Lastly, passengers not in the above groups who use these trains to get a seat rather than stand on a faster service.

Thameslink will provide more and longer trains from stations on the Cambridge branch stopping at Finsbury Park, so the number of passengers in group 2 using these trains should reduce once the Thameslink timetable commences. Against that Hatfield and Potters Bar stops will be added according to the Timetable Consultation document, although whether there will be alterations in the draft timetable remains to be seen...

Of course on the corresponding northbound PM Peak trains you can add passengers who saw Cambridge on the concourse information screen and realize that their journey will be 45 minutes longer than they hoped as Sonia finishes listing the calling points in Gas Works Tunnel!

MikeWM · 24 May 2017

GN's T*****r feed is getting more lively over the past few days. People are starting to notice there are fewer seats compared with a 365 and, for now at least, much less reliable trains. Especially with the single-line sections between Ely and Kings Lynn, delays quickly accumulate.

Also, there appears to be some problem with the doors. A few people complaining of being overcarried because the doors failed to open. Certainly the one I was on yesterday morning had an announcement from the driver that the doors would take 30 seconds or so to open (at Cambridge North), and that people in the front carriage should probably move to the second one as the front carriage doors would 'probably' fail to open even then.

That being said, I did appreciate the aircon this morning - once I changed carriage to find one that was actually a sensible temperature.

Failed Unit · 24 May 2017

I prefer the option of opening a window.

However I did wonder how the system would cope with Cambridge north considering it took nearly 4 months to get the PIS working and it only opens 6 coaches at New Barnet despite no length issue on either Southbound platform.

Hadders · 24 May 2017

notverydeep said:
Thameslink will provide more and longer trains from stations on the Cambridge branch stopping at Finsbury Park

Remember most of the class 700s are 8-car not 12. Are you certain there'll be more of these services in the peaks?

Failed Unit said:
I prefer the option of opening a window.

So do I. Whenever I've been on a GN 387 it's been quite stuffy. Seemingly no-one's turned the air-con on.

bramling · 24 May 2017

Hadders said:
Whenever I've been on a GN 387 it's been quite stuffy. Seemingly no-one's turned the air-con on.

Same. I don't find them particularly cool in hot weather either.

Obviously many users feel the same, judging by the fair few windows which have been opened. Went on one the other day where there was a label on a broken one "do not touch, Hornsey aware"!

bramling · 24 May 2017

MikeWM said:
Especially with the single-line sections between Ely and Kings Lynn, delays quickly accumulate.

Indeed. This will prove a *major* weak point with the Thameslink service. The timetable will be a pack of cards, which will come tumbling down with the slightest bit of late running anywhere in the system.

Of course, a certain dearly-departed (or not) poster would not have this. Time will tell!

Hadders · 24 May 2017

bramling said:
Indeed. This will prove a *major* weak point with the Thameslink service. The timetable will be a pack of cards, which will come tumbling down with the slightest bit of late running anywhere in the system.

Of course, a certain dearly-departed (or not) poster would not have this. Time will tell!

Agreed. I do hope it all works but I fear it won't.

It'll be interesting to see how GTR 'spin' the new service as far as the peaks are concerned:

- Fewer seats per train
- Ergonomically designed ironing boards seats for comfort
- Nowhere to place a cup of coffee
- Most trains no longer than today
- More room for people to stand

The Off Peak is clearly a significant improvement on what we have today but I suspect the peaks won't be.

jopsuk · 24 May 2017

At Thameslink the 387s weren't splitting/joining in service were they? I remember the 379s were unreliable doing it at introduction. I used to often get a 379 to work from Cambridge in the morning; an 8 car came in on a service and coupled to a 4 from the sidings. A Bombardier fitter was in attendance for this for 6 months+ and at the beginning it wasn't uncommon for the train to leave as an 8.

Ianno87 · 25 May 2017

Failed Unit said:
I prefer the option of opening a window.

However I did wonder how the system would cope with Cambridge north considering it took nearly 4 months to get the PIS working and it only opens 6 coaches at New Barnet despite no length issue on either Southbound platform.

Disagree.

You've obviously never boarded a 365 in the evening peak at King's Cross on a summers evening that's been sunbathing all day at Hornsey. If your clothes aren't drenched in sweat by the time you get to Cambridge it's a small miracle. Opening windows just about makes a dent in the temperature by the time you are braking for Hitchin.

Plus some Cantabridgians get angsty and insist on keeping the 365 windows shut on hot days due to the racket that results through the various tunnels (insisting that the air vents will suffice)

Monday evening's 1744 (387 with air con) was a dream...

43096 · 25 May 2017

Ianno87 said:
Disagree.

You've obviously never boarded a 365 in the evening peak at King's Cross on a summers evening that's been sunbathing all day at Hornsey. If your clothes aren't drenched in sweat by the time you get to Cambridge it's a small miracle. Opening windows just about makes a dent in the temperature by the time you are braking for Hitchin.

Plus some Cantabridgians get angsty and insist on keeping the 365 windows shut on hot days due to the racket that results through the various tunnels (insisting that the air vents will suffice)

Monday evening's 1744 (387 with air con) was a dream...

So what we're saying is, put a 365 interior inside a 387 bodyshell and you get what is required.

It's a shame the 387 interior is so poor, as other aspects of them are very good -Bombardier have sorted the build quality out for a start.

Failed Unit · 25 May 2017

jopsuk said:
At Thameslink the 387s weren't splitting/joining in service were they? I remember the 379s were unreliable doing it at introduction. I used to often get a 379 to work from Cambridge in the morning; an 8 car came in on a service and coupled to a 4 from the sidings. A Bombardier fitter was in attendance for this for 6 months+ and at the beginning it wasn't uncommon for the train to leave as an 8.

No they never split on Thameslink in service, but have since December on great northern.

Be interesting come Autumn what trains will convert to 700s. Suspect it will be the shorter Welwyn's in the beginning.

The Thameslink consultantation results are delayed until after the election. But the spin will be all trains will be at least 8 coaches. Remember we still have a 313 operated service in the peak. Every seat counts. Lol.

Finally the air conditioning comment. Never done a 365 out of Hornsey. Many 317s and agree it isn't nice. No idea how long it will take an air conditioned train to cook if it is stood in the sidings all day. One thing we will all agree on a failed air-conditioned train is worse than not having it at all. At least the 387s have windows.

Failed Unit · 25 May 2017

43096 said:
So what we're saying is, put a 365 interior inside a 387 bodyshell and you get what is required.

It's a shame the 387 interior is so poor, as other aspects of them are very good -Bombardier have sorted the build quality out for a start.

The perfect solution.

jon0844 · 25 May 2017

Trains that come in from Hornsey to start out of King's Cross are indeed hell (maybe hotter than hell) so however bad the aircon is on the 387s it's still favourable.

I assume they have eco modes to save money, which means the system isn't working as fast as it could, or should. I am not sure if that's the case, but there's never been much airflow from the vents. It must be working though - or else you'd really know!

philjo · 25 May 2017

the 07:09 from Letchworth has been at least 6 minutes late each day this week so far. Presumably due to delays at coupling the units at Cambridge.

I was on the 07:09 yesterday - on approaching Kings Cross the driver made an announcement saying there were a number of occasions in the last few days when there have been delays of a minute or so in releasing the doors at Kings cross. as it happened, this time the doors opened fairly quickly.

I was on the 20:14 from Kings Cross last night which was the first time I had noticed any aircon in use on GN as the 387s I have used up to then have always been hot and airless.
Had a nice breezy ride in a 313 with the windows open this morning!

I gather station staff have been receiving complaints about the seats on the 387s - particularly from some 1st class season ticket holders who now struggle to find a seat.

Fincra5 · 25 May 2017

So many pages of complaining for a more modern train! Some parts of the network would be happy with new trains, with plug sockets and AirCon.

Yes I too prefer an open window. But I find the aircon on an Electrostar far more useful for passenger compartments than an open hopper window, especially if you're at a stand!

notverydeep · 25 May 2017

Hadders said:
Remember most of the class 700s are 8-car not 12. Are you certain there'll be more of these services in the peaks?

No I am not certain, but they will have 55 units with 12 cars, compared to 60 with 8 cars. At roughly 90% utilization that gives 49 diagrams for 12 car units and 54 diagrams with 8 cars, which could give you 12 trains per hour of 12 coaches arriving at the core from each direction sustained for two hours per peak - this is hugely more than now.

Looking at the services detailed in the consultation document, a fair number of the routes still have to be 8 car. It seems likely there will be a small number of 8 car 700s used on the routes that can have 12 car trains, but most of these will be the trains that are going in the counter peak direction at peak times, say a train going north through St. Pancras at 07:15 to Peterborough, not getting back until around 09:45.

Of the GN Thameslink routes, the 4 tph that call at Welwyn Garden City (TL7 and TL8 in the document) will need to be 8 cars, because of multiple short platforms. At this morning's Meet The Manager session at King's Cross, I asked about using 12 cars with SDO and he said that would only be unplanned / during disruption at these stations. The other 4 tph are the trains to Peterbrough and Cambridge and the only stops shown in the consultation document are 12 car length. My interpretation is that the peak service will have 4 tph 12 car from GN and 8 tph 12 car from Bedford. But I am not directly involved, so will have to wait to see the draft timetable to see if my interpretation turns out correct...

Don't forget that GN will retain 50 4 car units for other non-Thameslink trains (29 387s plus 21 365s), so they could easily make a fair number of peak 12 car trains into King's Cross as well post the Thameslink timetable. I do hope these trains will be lengthened and take at least some of the passengers further north who currently use the trains that serve Welwyn Garden City - as sadly the consultation document makes clear that we can expect the same frequency and train length as now!

Class 387 to GN

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