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THAMESLINK services to Kent and Sussex routes 2018

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hwl

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You do realise that length of the train is, generally, irrelevant in relation to clearing of junctions/platforms,etc. In my experience, having worked on relevant projects, calculated junction margins, platform re-occupation margins and headways are calculated using maximum length trains, so 12 car trains in this case. So therefore are a worse case scenario.
I do and it is far more complex than I outlined - Completely agree in general but Charing Cross is a special case as the platform length issues traditionally limited the number of 12car trains (along with lack of stock!) so BR(Southern Region) took advantage of knowing there would always a fair number of 10 car services (i.e. all metro and some "long distance") but an increase in the number of 12 car services (along with SDO as an enabler) is/will push Metropolitan C Jn beyond being able to cope with 29tph on paper.

Worth remembering that the loop services out of Cannon Street are limited to 10 cars in length because of the length of and location of signals on connecting spurs between routes.
Something might happen in the next few decades at the current rate (along with sorting Dartford to some extent)
 
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tsr

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You do realise that length of the train is, generally, irrelevant in relation to clearing of junctions/platforms,etc. In my experience, having worked on relevant projects, calculated junction margins, platform re-occupation margins and headways are calculated using maximum length trains, so 12 car trains in this case. So therefore are a worse case scenario.

Relevance to the SE side may be called into question, but I can assure you that train length is very relevant to how quickly services clear Windmill Bridge (and its surrounding junctions), one of the cited examples above. It is a notable example of an area of the network where train lengths are in excess of what can reasonably be accommodated, and performance of such trains is difficult to assess when predicting disruption, beyond "it might get gridlocked"!

Using this example may or may not be appropriate as comparison against various different parts of the SE network - I shall make no comment - but Windmill Bridge is my patch and it would be unfair to lump that one into the same category.

Clue: I sign all routes around Windmill Bridge and have done for a matter of years...
 
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321over360

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At the busiest time of the evening peak (5:30ish to 6:30ish) trains from Cannon St (and soon to be London Bridge) to Deptford, Greenwich, Maze Hill and Westcombe Park have a 25 mins gap then around another 25 mins gap. Normally its 10 mins gap off-peak. Frequency was far higher before Thameslink and London Bridge work.


The 25 mins gap is often longer due to late trains. The trains are often packed, and that delays things further.

Plus the fact Cannon Street is running to capacity in the peaks whilst the Thameslink works at London Bridge are ongoing so there has to be some sacrificies and some of that is Greenwich line to mitigate for all the other routes including mainline services

In fact CST to stations along greenwich line are as follows:
1607, 1617, 1632 (DFD), 1647, 1704, 1714 (Gillingham S/Fast), 1728 (DFD), 1749 (Gravesend), 1814 (DFD), 1830 (Strood), 1848, 1857 so there are about 4 TPH along the greenwich line during the peak from Cannon Street
 

321over360

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You do realise that length of the train is, generally, irrelevant in relation to clearing of junctions/platforms,etc. In my experience, having worked on relevant projects, calculated junction margins, platform re-occupation margins and headways are calculated using maximum length trains, so 12 car trains in this case. So therefore are a worse case scenario.

Worth remembering that the loop services out of Cannon Street are limited to 10 cars in length because of the length of and location of signals on connecting spurs between routes.

Cannon Street Rounders using the Greenwich & Sidcup routes can only run in 10 Car due to the Crayford Creek Spur line that joins Slade Green & Crayford having signal blocks that can only take 10 car services. Only Cannon Street services that can well run 12 car is Dartford services however these cannot call at Woolwich Dockyard due to no real SDO on the networkers, however the only problem for SE in the peaks is the lack of stock for all the routes they need to be used on, Networker and Electrostar utilisation is at max usage for the peak, if a train has failed and gone to the depot before the evening peak, whatever service that train would have made will ultimately be cancelled as no spare stock to replace it with, or it will have to be short formed just to keep it running (which has to happen at times)
 

hwl

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Cannon Street Rounders using the Greenwich & Sidcup routes can only run in 10 Car due to the Crayford Creek Spur line that joins Slade Green & Crayford having signal blocks that can only take 10 car services. Only Cannon Street services that can well run 12 car is Dartford services however these cannot call at Woolwich Dockyard due to no real SDO on the networkers, however the only problem for SE in the peaks is the lack of stock for all the routes they need to be used on, Networker and Electrostar utilisation is at max usage for the peak, if a train has failed and gone to the depot before the evening peak, whatever service that train would have made will ultimately be cancelled as no spare stock to replace it with, or it will have to be short formed just to keep it running (which has to happen at times)

CST metro services - Don't forget Sevenoaks Stoppers as 12 car and Hayes line could easily be to if they sort the cameras/monitors but not much point if there is no stock...

Crayford Creek Spur is only really an issue clockwise round the loop as there are trap points in the anti-clockwise direction. The Clockwise trap points were removed during resignalling in late (Nov?) 1970.

Crayford Creek Spur was built at the behest of the War Department and opened in 1942 to increase resilience to Woolwich Arsenal as well as more locally several key defence sites along the Sidcup line and act as reversing siding if needed (this later functionality effectively removed in 1970).
 
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ScotGG

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Plus the fact Cannon Street is running to capacity in the peaks whilst the Thameslink works at London Bridge are ongoing so there has to be some sacrificies and some of that is Greenwich line to mitigate for all the other routes including mainline services

In fact CST to stations along greenwich line are as follows:
1607, 1617, 1632 (DFD), 1647, 1704, 1714 (Gillingham S/Fast), 1728 (DFD), 1749 (Gravesend), 1814 (DFD), 1830 (Strood), 1848, 1857 so there are about 4 TPH along the greenwich line during the peak from Cannon Street

We know about the cuts now and why it's happening. The issue and question was about what happens from January 2018 after completion of work and continuation of those reductions.

As a daily user what happens up to 5:25 ish is pretty irrelevant as most people get out of work and reach the station by that time until about half 6. Thats the high peak and there's now far bigger gaps than before 2015 and this is to stay in 2018.

Why has all/most of the cuts due to rebuilding seemingly fallen on the Greenwich route? Fair enough from late 2018 but why for a whole year until then?
 

louis97

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I do and it is far more complex than I outlined - Completely agree in general but Charing Cross is a special case as the platform length issues traditionally limited the number of 12car trains (along with lack of stock!) so BR(Southern Region) took advantage of knowing there would always a fair number of 10 car services (i.e. all metro and some "long distance") but an increase in the number of 12 car services (along with SDO as an enabler) is/will push Metropolitan C Jn beyond being able to cope with 29tph on paper.

Trains now crossover at Ewer Street Junction (slightly closer to Waterloo East), instead of Metropolitan Junction. At an increased speed too, 25 instead of 20mph I think it is. So therefore that means trains do clear the junction those crucial few seconds earlier and the planning rules have/will be updated in line with this. Although I think the junction margin around here is just the standard two minutes for Inner London junctions.

Relevance to the SE side may be called into question, but I can assure you that train length is very relevant to how quickly services clear Windmill Bridge (and its surrounding junctions), one of the cited examples above. It is a notable example of an area of the network where train lengths are in excess of what can reasonably be accommodated, and performance of such trains is difficult to assess when predicting disruption, beyond "it might get gridlocked"!

Using this example may or may not be appropriate as comparison against various different parts of the SE network - I shall make no comment - but Windmill Bridge is my patch and it would be unfair to lump that one into the same category.

Clue: I sign all routes around Windmill Bridge and have done for a matter of years...

Definitely relevant not just on South Eastern but across the railway network, but what you refer to is more to do with the big picture and handling of disruption on the day.

No doubt there will be situations on South Eastern where you may allow the minimum junction margin between two trains but you then have to look ahead and ensure that the rear of that train isn't going to block another trains path whilst waiting for its path through the next junction. I'm sure you must have witnessed situations like that at Windmill Bridge, especially in disruption!
 

ScotGG

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Another PM peak and another cancellation. The 18:30 now cancelled. So a 34 minute gap from Cannon Street to Deptford, Greenwich, Maze Hill and Westcombe Park.
 

Minstral25

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GTR 2018 timetable consultation.

Second update will be out on 26th June for responses by 27th July.

It will have full timetable details on each route on a website plus you can pull up comparisons between todays service and that from May/December 2018. Demo looked very good.
 

ScotGG

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That's good. Will be good to see what the times are for Thameslink through Greenwich and whether they start in May or December (December I'm guessing especially with 700s now delayed). Also hopefully some news of whether 8 or 12 car. If 8 then not great given some services cut through Greenwich were high capacity 10-car 376s and I doubt an 8-car 700 is more capacity, if any?
 

Barn

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That's good. Will be good to see what the times are for Thameslink through Greenwich and whether they start in May or December (December I'm guessing especially with 700s now delayed). Also hopefully some news of whether 8 or 12 car. If 8 then not great given some services cut through Greenwich were high capacity 10-car 376s and I doubt an 8-car 700 is more capacity, if any?

What we really need is a combined Thameslink and Southeastern December 2018 timetable. It seems to be beyond the wit of man at the moment.
 

Starmill

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I do and it is far more complex than I outlined - Completely agree in general but Charing Cross is a special case as the platform length issues traditionally limited the number of 12car trains (along with lack of stock!) so BR(Southern Region) took advantage of knowing there would always a fair number of 10 car services (i.e. all metro and some "long distance") but an increase in the number of 12 car services (along with SDO as an enabler) is/will push Metropolitan C Jn beyond being able to cope with 29tph on paper.

Interesting. What kind of percentage of peak services to and from Charing Cross could be 12 car then? Assuming the next Southeastern franchise gains all of the neccesary rolling stock (which, on recent events, isn't a given, clearly, but...)

Can anyone go into a bit more detail about the empty stock issue? I understand the Metropolitan curve out of Cannon Street used to be used in some capacity to quickly vacate platforms at peak times? What stops the trains from just leaving the station? Nowhere to send them? It always seemed not quite right to me that there are only 3 tracks in and out of Cannon Street.
 
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Starmill

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What we really need is a combined Thameslink and Southeastern December 2018 timetable. It seems to be beyond the wit of man at the moment.

I have been thinking that - the more I read on each proposal the less I feel able to understand 'The Big Picture'.
 

ScotGG

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Today it's the turn of the 18:48 Cannon Street to Greenwich to be cancelled. A clean sweep this week of evening rush hour cancellations. Not only has Thameslink work cut services on this line severely in the PM peak and now look to continue that into 2018, Southeastern can't even run the reduced service provided due to lack of stock.

Fully agree about providing combined Thameslink and Southeastern consultation. Each consultation is run in isolation.
 
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ijmad

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Dec 18 draft timetables published:
https://www.transformingrail.com/download-timetables

Appears the plan is to run 16tph through London Bridge from December (so January 2nd given the engineering works), not starting in May? (Am I reading this right?).

Other things I noticed:
- 16tph total through London Bridge as expected
- 14th over the Bermondsey flyover, 2tph to Greenwich line
- 4tph to Catford loop via E&C
 
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samuelmorris

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How does the 6-7 mins from Blackfriars (and 11-12 from Farringdon) to London Bridge compare to the original 2014 timetable? From recollection, isn't that about the same?
 

infobleep

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Dec 18 draft timetables published:
https://www.transformingrail.com/download-timetables

Appears the plan is to run 16tph through London Bridge from December (so January 2nd given the engineering works), not starting in May? (Am I reading this right?).

Other things I noticed:
- 16tph total through London Bridge as expected
- 14th over the Bermondsey flyover, 2tph to Greenwich line
- 4tph to Catford loop via E&C
How did you find that. When I went on their Web Site, it didn't show up in any links. I only got to it by typing in your above link.
 

infobleep

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Someone has made a mistake with the column formatting I think as on page 9 of 19 on the SN Brighton Redhill Reigate Horsham and Tonbridge timetable, all the times are just ####.

It is also the same for every page after that. I see all those pages have the station names on every page. The previous 8 pages only have them on the first page. However they at least have train times, unless the pages from 9 onwards.
 
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jon0844

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I initially got worried that the last service from King's Cross at 0134 (now 0136) skipped a lot of stations, including Hatfield, on its run.

But there's an additional 0140 service that terminates at WGC covering those, but it means Welwyn North and Knebworth lose their last train (those two being set down only today).
 

swt_passenger

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Other things I noticed:
- 16tph total through London Bridge as expected
- 14th over the Bermondsey flyover, 2tph to Greenwich line
- 4tph to Catford loop via E&C

Exactly as we've been discussing for about a year then?
 
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ijmad

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Exactly as we've been discussing for about a year then?

Well yes, but nice to see it in the proverbial black with no last minute surprise fiddlings.

One thing I couldn't find in these timetables was the service pattern from Blackfriars terminating platforms. Maybe I'm just not looking in the right place, or are these not covered here?
 
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Barn

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How did you find that. When I went on their Web Site, it didn't show up in any links. I only got to it by typing in your above link.

I think you need to whack in a couple of stations into the form on the front page first.
 

infobleep

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I think you need to whack in a couple of stations into the form on the front page first.
Thanks. Your right. As I played around with thr stations after.

What would be interesting is the ability to type in two stations and see the time. Across the day compared to now rather than half hour either side. It's only a minor thing though.
 

infobleep

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Another useful tool would be one that includes train connections.

For example if I board the 7.4O Haywards Heath to Victoria service that has come from Littlehampton, it is very busy.

Although quite a few get out at East Croydon, I don't see it totally emptying.

Now oi I put in Littlehampton and Victoira, it says no service in 2018. Now it could be that the connecting service is almost as good vut the only way one can find out is by reading the draft timetable PDFs? Will many people bother do that?

Currentlt it's the 6.40 from Littlehampton and that gets into Clapham Junction at 8.17 under the new proposals you have to leave 6.40 and change at East Croydon, waiting 9 minutes for the connecting train. You'd arrive 8.25.

So journey 8 minutes slower but other opportunities, not current found from Littlehampton might be better to more people overall. I don't know.
 
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louis97

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Dec 18 draft timetables published:
https://www.transformingrail.com/download-timetables

Appears the plan is to run 16tph through London Bridge from December (so January 2nd given the engineering works), not starting in May? (Am I reading this right?).

Other things I noticed:
- 16tph total through London Bridge as expected
- 14th over the Bermondsey flyover, 2tph to Greenwich line
- 4tph to Catford loop via E&C

Just 12tph over the Bermondsey flyover, 4tph towards North Kent East Junction - two towards Greenwich (Rainham) and two towards Grove Park (Maidstone/Ashford).
 

ijmad

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Just 12tph over the Bermondsey flyover, 4tph towards North Kent East Junction - two towards Greenwich (Rainham) and two towards Grove Park (Maidstone/Ashford).

Well spotted. I thought the Maidstone/Ashfords were down to go via the Elephant/Catford/BromleySouth route but evidently my information is out of date. When did that change?

Guess they've decided they can cross 4tph in front of the Cannon Street ups.. good luck?
 

swt_passenger

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Well spotted. I thought the Maidstone/Ashfords were down to go via the Elephant/Catford/BromleySouth route but evidently my information is out of date. When did that change?

I thought it was mentioned in the first few days this thread was running?
 
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louis97

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Guess they've decided they can cross 4tph in front of the Cannon Street ups.. good luck?

Note that the 2tph towards New Cross don't have to cross the trains from the Greenwich line, they can crossover parallel with them. The plan is to make use of this for these services from what I've seen.

Although note it is also possible for the trains towards New Cross to go directly onto the Down Kent Fast via Line 4 all the way to New Cross without conflicting with anything coming from the platform lines at New Cross.
 
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