16-25 Railcard discount refused

Good morning, this is my first post - this forum has been recommended to me by another member (thank you northernrail2009!)

I have already registered a complaint via South West Trains' website but whilst awaiting their response, can anyone tell me if it is true that no railcard discount is applied if purchasing one's ticket on the train?

My 16 year old son - who has a 16-25 Railcard - was going away for the weekend and arrived at Parkstone Station to find the ticket machine had vanished, so I was unable to get him his ticket. There was no sign to explain although I have since found out that the ticket machine had been vandalised. Anyway I told him he would have to buy his ticket on the train as there was no alternative.

When the ticket collector came round my son asked to purchase his ticket. This member of staff was apparently "rude and grumpy" and told him he should have come to find him. I have to mention here that my son is very new to travelling alone and would not have known this - and actually, nor would I!

Anyway he went back to get his ticket machine, then returned and when my son showed him his railcard, he was told "Not on the train" and made to pay the full adult return fare. Is this correct? Surely if there is no facility to purchase a ticket at the station then it is not the passenger's fault and he should not be penalised.

This is a tricky one. (Although I'm sure others will immediately jump to the conclusion that the guard was in the wrong).

It is in the passenger's interest to find the guard as soon as they get on the train (or even before) to purchase a ticket should no facilities exist to purchase one beforehand. I have certainly had no problems when asking the guard as they've opened the doors whether they'd be prepared to sell me a ticket. Doing this before I get on the train ensures I do not get charged the full standard fare for the journey.

I will admit, however, that this is not advertised and nor is made clear in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (only that a ticket must be purchased 'as soon as is reasonably practical' which can be taken to mean on board/at an interchange/at the destination).

Now the guard has gone against what is written in the conditions of carriage by charging the full undiscounted fare when the facility to purchase the ticket before travel was not available*. Does this mean he was in the wrong, though? Out of context, yes without a doubt. But we need to dive a little deeper here. I'm assuming Parkstone does not have a working permit to travel machine? I'm sure if it did you would have used it!

*Certainly if the facility to buy the undiscounted ticket existed at Parkstone prior to travelling then the guard can refuse to give an undiscounted fare in these circumstances. Although, asking the guard in such a situation, before boarding, whether they'd sell you a discounted ticket often results in a 'yes, sure' with SWT in my experience.

Assuming the guard did not do his ticket checking duties on that service then what would your son have done? Logic here suggests 'buy at the destination' (assuming the destination has a ticket office to sell a ticket originating at another station). Alternatively there may be barriers in operation and the staff could say 'well you could have bought on the train'. Resulting in a very messy set of circumstances (and something not very pleasant for a 16 year old who is unsure of where he stands**). In such a case the guard could assume that he was trying to fare evade (by simply not looking to purchase a ticket immediately) and charged him the full fare for the journey, which is the most he can do as a guard (SWT guards at least cannot issue penalty fares).

**I've advised friends myself of cheaper tickets for their journey which would require them to stop short of the destination shown (perfectly valid), but when they encountered bother when travelling they did not know what to do. Of course, the vast majority of people don't know the intricacies of our ticketing system and what is and isn't allowed! I believe some (ok that quantifier can be open for discussion) staff don't either.

I honestly don't know what reply you'll get off SWT. I'd hope with them wishing to remain a reputable company they'll see the mistakes from both parties and put things right (by refunding the 50ish% extra your son paid for his undiscounted ticket, albeit probably in the form of travel vouchers). Something I'd certainly push for giving your son's age and his unfamiliarity of travelling alone.

Thanks for that. As I said, my son is young and inexperienced and in fact this was the first time ever that he had travelled without my first having purchased his ticket for him.

In future, given that there is no ticket machine, I will be ordering his tickets in advanced online from SWT,and I will post again when I receive their reply.

I'm sure I have less experience than dan_atki but I travel by train often enough and have never been aware that you should need to actively seek out the guard/ticket inspector in order to buy a ticket if you couldn't at the station beforehand. If the Conditions of Carriage stated this then it would be fair enough, but they don't, and as such I don't believe your son should have been made to pay the full fare. As such, I would encourage you to complain again if your complaint is rejected - the Conditions of Carriage explicitly state "In circumstances where (i) or (ii) apply [which include your situation], you only need to pay the fare that you would have paid if you had bought a ticket immediately before your journey": no mention of .

I don't have much experience of this, but my local station (not SWT though) is unstaffed with no ticket machine. Most of the time tickets are checked and sold (sometimes 30 people get on at once, all needing to buy tickets - how could it possibly work if they all had to go to find the guard?!? Once I needed to buy a ticket and no-one came round: I went to the ticket office at the station where I was changing and bought a ticket for the whole journey - they didn't bat an eyelid. Ordering in advance is a good idea (you might get it cheaper, for starters!) - but sometimes it's not possible and you shouldn't have to pay more.

Hiya

I get where you coming from and unfortunately the guard on the train is within his rights to refuse the railcard discount on board, and yes according to the Railway Byelaws make yourself known to the guard when boarding the train if you require a ticket, unfortunately your son probably just caught this guard on a bad day and the guard may have thought he was attempting to fare dodge, I see it all the time here we will have a group of kids jump on the train without a ticket (but holding railcards) thinking that they may get there without having to pay, and if they do get charged at least they'll have their discount.. I am personally glad to hear that some guards refuse to give discounts on the train, while i do empathise with your story.

Regards
Mc

McMinion said:

I get where you coming from and unfortunately the guard on the train is within his rights to refuse the railcard discount on board.

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Why do you think that? It clearly says that only if no ticket issuing facilities were available at the start station then any ticket can be purchased on board.

As for going to the guard - when I used to take the train I know of many occasions when other passengers have gotten angry for doing this as they were waiting for the guard to come to them and it is seen as "pushing in the queue." As a matter of fact I know that some guards on this line will refuse to sell you a ticket if you approach them, they prefer to work their way through the train, selling tickets to people who boarded first.

McMinion said:

unfortunately the guard on the train is within his rights to refuse the railcard discount on board

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Afraid I must disagree here. If there is NO facility to buy your required ticket at the start of your journey then a revenue trained guard can only refuse to sell you a discounted ticket if:
a) their machine is faulty or out of ticket stock;
b) they don't know how to issue such a ticket; or
c) they are not performing revenue duties for whatever reason.

In each of these cases it is not the passenger's fault and, as such, again there has been no opportunity to buy a ticket until a convenient interchange or at the destination.

Say the OP's son was travelling to Waterloo and the guard's machine was also not working. Control should be aware that both the Ticket Vending Machine (TVM) at Parkstone and the guard's Avantix machine were both not in working order. If there was any hassle at the barriers at Waterloo, I'd kindly ask the staff to confirm with control I had no opportunity to buy my ticket until I got there.

However, I do agree with your point about the guard believing them to be fare dodging by not seeking them when they boarded, and hence why the discount was probably not given. As I said above though, this 'rule' is not stated anywhere and if you believe the guard will be coming through checking tickets anyway then you probably won't go out of your way to find them to issue a ticket (especially on a 10 car Desiro, which this may have been!) and will wait for them to get to you, or find them at your destination.

@mathmo: I also agree with you about stations with no TVMs nor open ticket offices. Guards on these routes should be aware that after departing these stations they will need to sell tickets to the majority of passengers who have boarded the train there.

If, however, there is a TVM at the station then the guard will probably assume it was used to purchase tickets by everyone unless they've been informed it's out of order. As we all know TVMs do not sell every ticket and do not offer every type of discount. In such circumstances (with SWT) I've sought the guard before boarding and asked if they'd sell me my required ticket. Not once has my request been refused and most are more than happy to issue me it.
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Mojo said:

As for going to the guard - when I used to take the train I know of many occasions when other passengers have gotten angry for doing this as they were waiting for the guard to come to them and it is seen as "pushing in the queue." As a matter of fact I know that some guards on this line will refuse to sell you a ticket if you approach them, they prefer to work their way through the train, selling tickets to people who boarded first.

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This is where problems start. It doesn't even come down to the company here but the guard working the service and how they prefer to work! Obviously, there is no guidelines for what should be done and how can a passenger know what their guard's practice is!?

My local SWT station (when I'm in that neck of the woods) has a part time ticket office and a TVM. When I needed to purchase a priv ticket (something TVMs cannot issue), I'd seek the guard as they did their platform duties and simply ask 'would you sell me a priv ticket?' and each time was told 'sure, hop on'. They'd finish their platform duties, then proceed to sell me the ticket.

I think it's a matter of courtesy and showing willingness to pay - if they say no then I wouldn't be at risk of them forcing me to pay full fare as I hadn't boarded the train yet! I'm aware my circumstances are slightly different but I think the same applies if the TVM is not working. That way there would be no obligation to buy a full fare if they say no, whereas there would be if you were already on board. Also, while they're at the station they could confirm the TVM was not working for themselves .

The guard is clearly in the wrong. Take it up with Passenger Focus if you don't get suitable compensation.

My apologies I seem to have misread some of that, the guard does have right to refuse a railcard if there was oppurtunity to buy a ticket, but as stated the ticket machine was missing, assuming there was not a member of staff in a ticket office or a working ticket machine somewhere on the station then yes the guard would indeed be at fault in this instance

At what time of day was this? Nationalrail shows Parkstone as having a manned ticket office Mon-fri mornings.
For many journeys from Parkstone there are only day tickets available so if you are coming back another day you have to buy 2 singles. Before 10 am mon fri these have a minimum fare of £8 so a full fare ticket may be cheaper?

McMinion said:

...and yes according to the Railway Byelaws make yourself known to the guard when boarding the train if you require a ticket...

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Which Railway Byelaw states that??

Reading the Byelaws on the DfT wesbite (http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/regs/railwaysbyelaws.pdf), I can find no mention of what you state.

dan_atki said:

I'm assuming Parkstone does not have a working permit to travel machine?

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It certainly seems it doesn't, in this picture you can see the old ASCOM machine and the PERTIS next to it (http://motteram2.fotopic.net/p20542366.html), but in this picture you can see both have been replaced by a single TVM (http://stephen9466.fotopic.net/p40442594.html). That isn't to say that they haven't relocated it to the station front when Penalty Fares were introduced down in Parkstone, perhaps someone down there can enlighten us?

Last year I boarded at Pokesdown on a Sunday. Despite the sign displaying the ticket offices opening hours indicating the ticket office should have been open, it was closed. The ticket machine was working however the screen was covered in what looked like gravy, the credit card slot was blocked with something very sticky, and it was not accepting notes. (and I didn't have 19 one pound coins to pay my fare)

I decided against using it (as did other passengers). When the train arrived I (and other passengers) explained the situation and asked the guard if we could buy tickets on the train. He reluctantly agreed and told us he would come round to us. When he did he refused to sell a cheap day return (to Portsmouth). So even if you seek the guard you may not get a discount. He said he checked and the machine was working so no discounts! (and the ticket office was shut due to staff shortages!!)

glynn80 said:

It certainly seems it doesn't, in this picture you can see the old ASCOM machine and the PERTIS next to it (http://motteram2.fotopic.net/p20542366.html), but in this picture you can see both have been replaced by a single TVM (http://stephen9466.fotopic.net/p40442594.html). That isn't to say that they haven't relocated it to the station front when Penalty Fares were introduced down in Parkstone, perhaps someone down there can enlighten us?

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As has happened to many PERTIS machines on the SWML!

scrapy said:

Last year I boarded at Pokesdown on a Sunday. Despite the sign displaying the ticket offices opening hours indicating the ticket office should have been open, it was closed. The ticket machine was working however the screen was covered in what looked like gravy, the credit card slot was blocked with something very sticky, and it was not accepting notes. (and I didn't have 19 one pound coins to pay my fare)

I decided against using it (as did other passengers). When the train arrived I (and other passengers) explained the situation and asked the guard if we could buy tickets on the train. He reluctantly agreed and told us he would come round to us. When he did he refused to sell a cheap day return (to Portsmouth). So even if you seek the guard you may not get a discount. He said he checked and the machine was working so no discounts! (and the ticket office was shut due to staff shortages!!)

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That is utmost pickiness - you cannot call a TVM in such a state in full working order! If you only have a note what are you to do? Walk to the next station to buy a ticket? I don't think so - the guard in this instance is very much in the wrong in my opinion. How can he say 'ok you can buy tickets on board' and then restrict what you can buy? I'm assuming he didn't tell you he was only selling full standard fares if he was allowing you to buy on board? (Something he'd have forced you to get anyways if you didn't have a ticket so he was really not doing you any favours!).

I'd have certainly written to SWT in such a situation and press for compensation to the amount of difference between the standard and cheap day fares.

Still, as I said above if you approach the guard and ask them to sell you a cheap day before you get on then they can't try charging you the full fare if they agree, and if they say no then you can't get charged the full fare either - a bit of a safety mechanism for you!

He said they werent allowed to sell a cheap ticket if their control said the machine was in working order. He obviously checked after saying yes. I agree that I didnt consider it working order and had the ticket office been open the machine would have probably been sorted. The difference was only 50p between a SDR and CDR but would have been more for railcard holders and felt it wrong on principle but I thought if I argued I may get a penalty fare. I feel while in some parts of the country guards are far to generous with people who avoid paying when a ticket office is open which annoys me as a fare paying passenger, and get a discount when the guard comes along, SWT take it far too far the other way and penalise honest passengers.

scrapy said:

He said they werent allowed to sell a cheap ticket if their control said the machine was in working order. He obviously checked after saying yes. I agree that I didnt consider it working order and had the ticket office been open the machine would have probably been sorted. The difference was only 50p between a SDR and CDR but would have been more for railcard holders and felt it wrong on principle but I thought if I argued I may get a penalty fare. I feel while in some parts of the country guards are far to generous with people who avoid paying when a ticket office is open which annoys me as a fare paying passenger, and get a discount when the guard comes along, SWT take it far too far the other way and penalise honest passengers.

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I don't know then if the SWT guards I've experienced who have willingly sold discounted and cheap tickets on board with a working TVM available before boarding (but passengers in a rush etc) have got disciplined for their actions in that case.

It is wrong on principle when he said yes first to later go back on that - he should have checked with control first, or not checked with them at all. As you all approached him at Parkstone too it's not as if he couldn't verify things for himself! And what's the likelihood of every passenger boarding concocting the same story...

You probably weren't aware at the time but I will repeat what I said above - SWT guards are not permitted to issue penalty fares. Only Revenue Protection Inspectors/Revenue Control Officers/whatever SWT call these staff are. Bear in mind, though, that these staff often work trains as well as the guard.

I have to agree with your point about leniency - something that annoys me greatly too, and I feel a sense of satisfaction when they get caught out (yes, I'm evil). As you say, penalising honest passengers is just wrong and creates a bad image of the company.

To be fair, a privatised railway is a business, therefore South West Trains have got to maximise dividends to their shareholders. If this involves creaming as much as possible off pax, then so be it. Even Brian Souter admitted ethics are not compatible with capitalism (god I sound like Denis Fryer now!)...

Downside to a privatised railway I'm afraid.

An idea though, if the TVM is fuxxored/missing next time, you could take a photo on your phone/camera, and then you have proof to show the guard?

Hail Kay, and welcome "on board!"

kay0409 said:

My 16 year old son - who has a 16-25 Railcard - was going away for the weekend and arrived at Parkstone Station to find the ticket machine had vanished, so I was unable to get him his ticket. There was no sign to explain although I have since found out that the ticket machine had been vandalised. Anyway I told him he would have to buy his ticket on the train as there was no alternative.

When the ticket collector came round my son asked to purchase his ticket. This member of staff was apparently "rude and grumpy" and told him he should have come to find him. I have to mention here that my son is very new to travelling alone and would not have known this - and actually, nor would I!

Anyway he went back to get his ticket machine, then returned and when my son showed him his railcard, he was told "Not on the train" and made to pay the full adult return fare. Is this correct? Surely if there is no facility to purchase a ticket at the station then it is not the passenger's fault and he should not be penalised.

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I must admit - As a Railcard holder and having South West Trains as my local TOC - That I've also run into this kind of situation several times in the past, and often with varying outcomes on each occasion. Before I begin with my experiences, it's worth stating here that - Even though the National Conditions of Carriage (NCoC) try to set out clear rules for this kind of situation - That each Guard interperets the rules and situation at hand in the way that he or she sees fit at the time. For the most part, Guards tend to be as helpful and sensitive as possible to such situations, but from time to time one may come across those who prefer to stick to the rulebook like glue - Especially true when the Guard(s) in question have been on the railways since British Rail days.

Anyhow...My own understanding and interperetation of the NCoC basically suggests that the issuance of a Full or Penalty Fare depends on the apparent intention of the passenger to pay the fare before (Or as soon as possible after) beginning their journey. Basically meaning that a passenger who boards at a station which normally has no ticketing facilities will generally be allowed to buy the correct discount ticket on board the train, but another passenger who boards at a later station (Which does normally have ticket purchasing facilities) without a ticket might be viewed by the guard as having tried to evade the fare by getting on the train with no initial intention of paying the fare (Hoping that the Guard won't come round during the journey) and trying to save him/herself a brush with the Law by attempting to buy a ticket before their attempted fare evasion is observed.
I've seen quite a number of passengers using this practice over time, and it is because of this practice that SWT are now strongly enforcing the "buy before you board" rule on all of their services.

In thy own case, I would say that thy son was fully entitled to purchase his ticket with proper Y-P discount on board the train as no ticket purchasing facilities were available at the station - Especially given that both of ye may not have the same degree of experience using the railways as many of us here - And hopefully SWT will uphold thy complaint when they get back to ye about it, and refund ye the excess paid - Although that will most likely come as Rail Travel Vouchers, as TOCs rarely send refunds by cash or cheque.

As for avoiding this kind of situation in the future, here are a few handy hints 'n' tips based upon my own experiences with SWT and other TOCs:

• Obviously, it goes without saying that purchasing a ticket before travelling is the best approach to use - And aiming to be at the origin station at least ten minutes before departure (20 minutes for busier stations) should give ye enough time to purchase a ticket before travel if usable facilities exist.
  .
• In cases where one finds themself having to buy on board, the best approach is to show the Guard(s) on that service that ye have the honest intention of paying the fare for thy journey as soon as possible - Either before boarding, or as soon as possible after boarding. To this end; If I'm boarding a train without already holding a ticket for my journey, I always seek permission to board from the Guard before actually boarding the train and state that I wish to buy a discount ticket on board the train. If the Guard is happy to allow me to do this, then he'll instruct me to board and will sell me the ticket that I require.
  Sometimes a Guard may be unable to (Or refuse to) allow this, in which case I have the choice of boarding the train anyway (Which will definitely mean paying full fare, or possibly clocking up a Penalty Fare) or I can wait for the next service. In the latter instance, I'll normally call SWT control (Using the help-point on the platform), inform them of the situation, and ask them to page the Guard of the following service (All Guards carry pagers) to inform them of the situation.
  .
• Whenever ye are in doubt, checking with the Guard before boarding is the best approach to ensuring that ye don't get "chinged" a full or penalty fare. On SWT's "Desiro" trains (Those with unit numbers - Visible on the front of the train - Starting 444xxx (White livery) and 450xxx (Blue livery)) the amber lights on the side of the train flash when the doors have been opened by the Guard from that carriage - So if ye are searching for the Guard, look for the flashing light on the side of the train. If there is no flashing light, then the Guard may be found in a cab - Either in the middle (In the case of 8 and 12-car trains) or at the end of the train.

To give ye an idea of my own outcomes in the past, I have almost always paid the correct fare for my journey. Before I developed this approach to showing honest intention of paying my fare I was charged full fare several times, and Penalty Fare'd once. In the case of the Penalty Fare (Which I incurred through not having time to purchase before boarding, and the Guard's ticket machine not working properly) I appealed to SWT and they reduced my liability to paying the full fare for that journey because of the circumstances involved.

Farewell for now, hope this helps, and here's hoping that ye have better experiences with rail travel in the future!
>> Death <<

CeliaDrummond said:

To be fair, a privatised railway is a business, therefore South West Trains have got to maximise dividends to their shareholders. If this involves creaming as much as possible off pax, then so be it. Even Brian Souter admitted ethics are not compatible with capitalism (god I sound like Denis Fryer now!)...

Downside to a privatised railway I'm afraid.

An idea though, if the TVM is fuxxored/missing next time, you could take a photo on your phone/camera, and then you have proof to show the guard?

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Indeed they are running a business. The issue here is the apparent regulations of this business being broken. All TOCs have an obligation to follow the Conditions of Carriage (or provide passengers a better 'offer' than what is stated there - they cannot provide worse). We've established that it is not made clear enough that you should seek the guard immediately when boarding if you have been unable to buy the ticket you need. It creates problems when you have unseasoned travellers who are unaware of what to do, especially when it all depends on the guard's own working practice.

Taking a photo of a ticket machine is an idea, but one I think the passenger should not be expected to perform. Control (as far as I'm aware) are instantly made aware of any TVM that goes out of service and early ticket office closures and pages all guards on that route to inform them as such. Guards should also be aware of any missing TVM along the routes they are working. Better proof is telling the guard when they've opened the doors to verify it for themself!

It's here where I open a can of worms and ask (rhetorically!) what is the purpose of the UK rail network? Is it there to provide a service to the travelling public (and as such everything possible must be done for the passenger), or is it there as a business opportunity for transportation companies to generate profit (and as such the customer as an individual isn't that important). Obviously, there are many shades of grey in between these two alternatives, and different companies are at different places on this scale. Notice my deliberate use of 'passenger' and 'customer' too!

Death said:

Sometimes a Guard may be unable to (Or refuse to) allow this, in which case I have the choice of boarding the train anyway (Which will definitely mean paying full fare, or possibly clocking up a Penalty Fare) or I can wait for the next service. In the latter instance, I'll normally call SWT control (Using the help-point on the platform), inform them of the situation, and ask them to page the Guard of the following service (All Guards carry pagers) to inform them of the situation.

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That is a very good point and one I hadn't thought of! Generally, what is the response you get off control when you do this?

It would certainly enable them to be aware the TVM is not in proper working order if it's covered in gravy and has sticky stuff blocking the card slot (and as such still showing to them as working)! They'd then inform the guards so they are forced to sell any ticket type from that station.

I agree that some staff are sticklers for the rules and will not bend them in any circumstances.

dan_atki said:

That is a very good point and one I hadn't thought of! Generally, what is the response you get off control when you do this?

It would certainly enable them to be aware the TVM is not in proper working order if it's covered in gravy and has sticky stuff blocking the card slot (and as such still showing to them as working)! They'd then inform the guards so they are forced to sell any ticket type from that station.

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I have to admit that the above is more of a contingency plan that I've always had ready for such circumstances, and - Thankfully - I havn't actually had to use it yet. I imagine though that control would find the information useful (As many passengers wouldn't think to report an unusable machine and staff coverage at stations can be patchy) and would be happy to page the Guard on the next service to warn him of passengers needing to buy on board at that station - Especially as a refusal of boarding would mean that I'd have clocked up an easily avoidable 30-60 minute delay to my journey. Also, it would speed up the repair and re-operation of the mchine(s) in question.

However, a lot of Guards seem to be happy to serve honest passengers with the tickets that they require. Last month - Having walked from home to Thorpe Park (17 miles in four hours) and feeling too tired to walk home, I arrived at Staines station to find that the Ascot train had already arrived. As the platform gates were open, I went straight to the guards door and asked him if I could buy on board as I didn't want to miss that departure. He happily allowed me to board without ticket, sold me the ticket that I needed on board the train, and the appropriate railcard discount was applied too! 8)

Death said:

I have to admit that the above is more of a contingency plan that I've always had ready for such circumstances, and - Thankfully - I havn't actually had to use it yet. I imagine though that control would find the information useful (As many passengers wouldn't think to report an unusable machine and staff coverage at stations can be patchy) and would be happy to page the Guard on the next service to warn him of passengers needing to buy on board at that station - Especially as a refusal of boarding would mean that I'd have clocked up an easily avoidable 30-60 minute delay to my journey. Also, it would speed up the repair and re-operation of the mchine(s) in question.

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Ahh! Yes, they would certainly find the information useful and shouldn't have a problem informing the guard on the following service. Even if they tell you to board the train without a ticket then if the guard refuses to sell you a discounted/cheap ticket then they can check (by ringing up control themselves) you were told by a member of staff to purchase on board. I'm also sure that an on-call engineer would be summoned to fix the problem too (provided it's a reasonable time!).

Death said:

However, a lot of Guards seem to be happy to serve honest passengers with the tickets that they require. Last month - Having walked from home to Thorpe Park (17 miles in four hours) and feeling too tired to walk home, I arrived at Staines station to find that the Ascot train had already arrived. As the platform gates were open, I went straight to the guards door and asked him if I could buy on board as I didn't want to miss that departure. He happily allowed me to board without ticket, sold me the ticket that I needed on board the train, and the appropriate railcard discount was applied too! 8)

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Agreed. The majority of guards on SWT are more than happy to go out of their way to assist if asked first such that you don't take things for granted, like assuming 'oh it's ok, they'll let me buy on board'.

I was in Oslo Norway last week and on their trains they have an interesting idea. One carriage is clearly marked as "Carriage with Conductor" with green signs in both Norweigan and English both on the external and internal doors. if you dont have a ticket you have to join in that carriage. Travel in any other carriage and its a £90 penalty fare!

Good idea but not practical over here with some of our non-corridor stock plus the awkwardness of SDO.



Matt

paul1609 said:

At what time of day was this? Nationalrail shows Parkstone as having a manned ticket office Mon-fri mornings.
For many journeys from Parkstone there are only day tickets available so if you are coming back another day you have to buy 2 singles. Before 10 am mon fri these have a minimum fare of £8 so a full fare ticket may be cheaper?

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This was around 5 p.m. and the ticket office is only manned in the mornings.
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scrapy said:

Last year I boarded at Pokesdown on a Sunday. Despite the sign displaying the ticket offices opening hours indicating the ticket office should have been open, it was closed. The ticket machine was working however the screen was covered in what looked like gravy, the credit card slot was blocked with something very sticky, and it was not accepting notes. (and I didn't have 19 one pound coins to pay my fare)

I decided against using it (as did other passengers). When the train arrived I (and other passengers) explained the situation and asked the guard if we could buy tickets on the train. He reluctantly agreed and told us he would come round to us. When he did he refused to sell a cheap day return (to Portsmouth). So even if you seek the guard you may not get a discount. He said he checked and the machine was working so no discounts! (and the ticket office was shut due to staff shortages!!)

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I wonder if this was the same guard?
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[I]

As for avoiding this kind of situation in the future said:

[*]Obviously, it goes without saying that purchasing a ticket before travelling is the best approach to use - And aiming to be at the origin station at least ten minutes before departure (20 minutes for busier stations) should give ye enough time to purchase a ticket before travel if usable facilities exist.
.[*]In cases where one finds themself having to buy on board, the best approach is to show the Guard(s) on that service that ye have the honest intention of paying the fare for thy journey as soon as possible - Either before boarding, or as soon as possible after boarding. To this end; If I'm boarding a train without already holding a ticket for my journey, I always seek permission to board from the Guard before actually boarding the train and state that I wish to buy a discount ticket on board the train. If the Guard is happy to allow me to do this, then he'll instruct me to board and will sell me the ticket that I require.
Sometimes a Guard may be unable to (Or refuse to) allow this, in which case I have the choice of boarding the train anyway (Which will definitely mean paying full fare, or possibly clocking up a Penalty Fare) or I can wait for the next service. In the latter instance, I'll normally call SWT control (Using the help-point on the platform), inform them of the situation, and ask them to page the Guard of the following service (All Guards carry pagers) to inform them of the situation.
.[*]Whenever ye are in doubt, checking with the Guard before boarding is the best approach to ensuring that ye don't get "chinged" a full or penalty fare. On SWT's "Desiro" trains (Those with unit numbers - Visible on the front of the train - Starting 444xxx (White livery) and 450xxx (Blue livery)) the amber lights on the side of the train flash when the doors have been opened by the Guard from that carriage - So if ye are searching for the Guard, look for the flashing light on the side of the train. If there is no flashing light, then the Guard may be found in a cab - Either in the middle (In the case of 8 and 12-car trains) or at the end of the train.[/list]To give ye an idea of my own outcomes in the past, I have almost always paid the correct fare for my journey. Before I developed this approach to showing honest intention of paying my fare I was charged full fare several times, and Penalty Fare'd once. In the case of the Penalty Fare (Which I incurred through not having time to purchase before boarding, and the Guard's ticket machine not working properly) I appealed to SWT and they reduced my liability to paying the full fare for that journey because of the circumstances involved.

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As for avoiding this kind of situation in the future said:

[/I]


Thanks for that which both my son and I will take on board, however as I have already said, taking into account the fact that this was the first time he had encountered such a situation I feel he was unfairly treated and I do feel that we should be refunded by SWT. He has never before travelled without a ticket and I shall be making sure he always has a ticket in future by booking ahead via the website. I shall not count on the ticket machine being reinstated anytime soon.

Thanks to all who have replied and offered their advice, I will let you know the outcome in due course.

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paul1609 said:

I was in Oslo Norway last week and on their trains they have an interesting idea. One carriage is clearly marked as "Carriage with Conductor" with green signs in both Norweigan and English both on the external and internal doors.

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Aye, I observed and used the same carriages when I visited Oslo last November. Mind ye though...The trains that I was using were three-car DMUs with orange signage for the two conductor's carriages, and black signage for the conductorless one. :?

Mind ye though, I was only using mainline trains between Oslo Sentrale and Grefsen St on the Gjorvik (York) line, and that might explain the differences in the rolling stock that ye had compared with mine.

paul1609 said:

If you dont have a ticket you have to join in that carriage. Travel in any other carriage and its a £90 penalty fare!

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If nothing else, the price of the penalty fare suggests that the Norwegens have got their heads screwed on right...Although that NOK 950,-/£90,- (As we see it) would seem like £45,- to the average Norwegen, that's still £25,- more than the PF chinged on SWT! 8)

Personally I don't think the same Norwegen approach would really work over here (See what I said above regarding passengers who attempt to purchase tickets only to save them a PF and criminal record.) but here's an idea recycled from the Hamburg AKN lines:

1. Increase the Penalty Fare to £50,- or above to try and reduce the incidence of fare evasion,
2. Install ticket machines on board trains that offer full-fare tickets - These allow passengers with not enough ticket buying time to travel legally (Although most AKN stations are unmanned) whilst encouraging people to buy before where possible (As discount tickets would have to be authorised and issued by the Guard)

On the other hand though, this approach could also allow people to try ticketless travel as I've described above.

An update on the above. I have had an email from SWT in reply to my complaint, asking me to send them the original tickets, which I have done and I now await their reply.

Incidentally, today I tried to book my son's next ticket online from SWT but they seem to be now charging £6 for next day delivery, when it was previously free. Lucky I noticed. This seems a bit steep! To avoid paying this I have to collect from the ticket machine in Poole (as the one in Parkstone is no longer in existence).

Some time ago my kids and I got on at Ashurst New Forest to go to London...we obtained Permits from the machine, and sought out the lady Guard. She was sorry but her machine was not working [battery run down I think], and she had asked for a replacement to be put on at Southampton Central. It wasn't of course, neither was one at Winchester and Basingstoke so we ended up with a free trip! She could not have been more pleasant, and was a credit. Now we have that ghastly new machine which I can never get to work!

That reminds [last post]: if you book online how do get the TVM or whatever it is called to cough up tickets? I could not see any on-screen facility yet the machine states on it that it can do this?

Oracle said:

That reminds me: if you book online how do get the TVM or whatever it is called to cough up tickets? I could not see any on-screen facility yet the machine states on it that it can do this?

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It probabally varies depending on how each individual TOC lays out and programmes the interfaces on their machines, but on SWT machines there should be an option on the first screen labelled "Collect pre-booked tickets" or words to that effect.

On selecting this option, ye'll be asked to insert thy credit/debit card (Which must be the same one that was used to purchase the tickets online), possibly enter thy PIN to verify thyself as the card holder, then the machine should print out the tickets ye have previously ordered along with a receipt. 8)

If ye have multiple bookings in the system at once, then ye may have to select which tickets ye want to collect - Or the machine might just print out the ones most relevant to that station by default. Station staff should be able to give ye more info and assistance on collecting tickets from the machines, though.

Just to add too - not all SWT TVMs have this facility at present. ANF is not listed as having this facility yet: http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/SWTrains/News/_prepaidcollectionnowavailable.htm

kay0409 said:

Incidentally, today I tried to book my son's next ticket online from SWT but they seem to be now charging £6 for next day delivery, when it was previously free. Lucky I noticed. This seems a bit steep! To avoid paying this I have to collect from the ticket machine in Poole (as the one in Parkstone is no longer in existence).

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nationalexpresseastcoast.com will (as of last time I used it) post tickets to you first class for free provided you book at least a week in advance. (They usually arrive in 1-2 days.) Next day delivery usually means guaranteed next day and does incur a charge.

kay0409 said:

An update on the above. I have had an email from SWT in reply to my complaint, asking me to send them the original tickets, which I have done and I now await their reply.

Incidentally, today I tried to book my son's next ticket online from SWT but they seem to be now charging £6 for next day delivery, when it was previously free. Lucky I noticed. This seems a bit steep! To avoid paying this I have to collect from the ticket machine in Poole (as the one in Parkstone is no longer in existence).

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PS on checking with SWT there was no option for free 1st class delivery because it was too close to the travel date, you have to book at least 5 days in advance for this option to be displayed.