Five Class 319/769s for the Welsh Network

Gareth Marston · 17 Jul 2017

jcollins said:
Bidston service don't actually go through Chester and the total number required for Liverpool-Chester, Chester-Crewe and Bidston-Wrexham would be 5 units so that would require them all with no maintenance/spare and certainly nothing left over to work a couple of Manchester Airport diagrams.

Im sure this deal has been done on a how many units do we need to be modifying at anyone one time how much can we afford basis rather than any line by line allocation. Using them on Wrexham/Bidston or Chester Crewe would be waste of 4 car units. Id expect them to be common user with a lot of shuffling going on on a day to day basis.

ATW have said that they can keep schedule on Valleys Lines.

RailUK Forums

PHILIPE · 17 Jul 2017

PaulHarding150 said:
I traveled on a four car 158 yesterday from Hollyhead to Shrewsbury.

4 car 158s are often used on the Cambrian line and most peak time trains to/from Ebbw Vale are four cars made up of 150 and/or 158.

ATW are booked to run 4 Cars on the Cambrian and between Shrewsbury and Birmingham International on both the Cambrians and Holyheads. The Cambrians split/join at Machynlleth with Aberystwyth and Pwllheli portions. The Ebbw Vale strengthening is mostly booked for 153s and there is only 1 x 158 working to Ebbw Vale now which is a single one.

This thread is getting confusing when the OP on the topic was posted here and both threads are now building up.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=143104

sw1ller · 17 Jul 2017

mwmbwls said:
Have any 25kV wires been commissioned in Wales yet? What are the proposed commissioning dates? Is it now envisaged that work about to start on the Halton Curve will include preliminaries for electrification?
Is the link going to be wired in whole or in part from inception?

With Merseytravel gearing up for an all Stadler fleet I cannot see them welcoming 769's on their Metro network - disrupting the level train/platform programme.

Where do ATW run four car 150/158 sets now?

Very regularly we run 4 car 158's from Chester to Birmingham and Chester to Llandudno Junction (and upto HHD sometimes too)

pemma · 17 Jul 2017

mwmbwls said:
Have any 25kV wires been commissioned in Wales yet? What are the proposed commissioning dates? Is it now envisaged that work about to start on the Halton Curve will include preliminaries for electrification?
Is the link going to be wired in whole or in part from inception?

I'm pretty sure there's no plan to wire Chester to Runcorn and if there was it would make sense to fill in the gap between the Halton Curve and Warrington. However, the criticism was using bi-mode trains for diesel only routes so as Chester to Runcorn to Liverpool will be partly under wires it would be a sensible route to use bi-modes on.

pemma · 17 Jul 2017

Gareth Marston said:
Using them on Wrexham/Bidston or Chester Crewe would be waste of 4 car units.

I imagine you've never seen Chester on a race day, even when Crewe-Chester is doubled up trains can having standing passengers (the same is true of other lines in to Chester.)

One of the downsides of having 4 car sets replacing some 2 car sets but not all 2 car sets is you can't split the 4 car ones so some services get more carriages than they need and others get less than they need.

LNW-GW Joint · 17 Jul 2017

Doesn't make sense to spread 5 units over multiple depots and crew bases.
The knowledge base is at Allerton.
Maybe Arriva at Crewe will have a hand.

notlob.divad · 17 Jul 2017

This sounds like some good news for Wales, as there ia to be some movement on the pre 2020 upgrade deadline.

In the article it says they will replace pairs of sprinters/pacers, probably on the valley lines. I am not sure how much of that is given by the person being interviewed and how much is speculation on behalf of the reporter.

I would be really surprised if they where to refurbish pacers, the political backlash when they are being scrapped everywhere else would surely be untennable.

Those commenting about it taking over the new Halton Curve service, whilst it would be a very good fit, I feel it will not be ine of these 5 units. As far as i remember Merseytravel are sponsering it to begin with, with the intention of passing it to the next Wales (and borders) franchise. These units are for the immediate upgrade needs. However it may well be, that with both northern and atw having these units, Merseytravel sensibly opt to use the same.

Finally, could these also work the north coast and cardiff to manchester routes? They coukd then run on the wires from warrington and crewe respectively. (Not quite sure of the limitations of doing so.

PHILIPE · 17 Jul 2017

LNW-GW Joint said:
Doesn't make sense to spread 5 units over multiple depots and crew bases.
The knowledge base is at Allerton.
Maybe Arriva at Crewe will have a hand.

4 Car units would be a waste of capacity on most of the routes in the North. The most ideal place for loadings would be on the Cardiff Valleys and based at Canton. Allerton would be too remote from where they are required and more flexibilty could be achieved in the Valleys where 4 Car Pacer formations can be split whereas 4 Car 319s can't.

notlob.divad · 17 Jul 2017

Does this also show where the Northern Units that are on the shorter lease will end up, once they are handed back, and assuming that they do get handed back.

IanXC · 17 Jul 2017

In light of todays news of 769s being ordered for Arriva Trains Wales,
I will now clarify which content should be in which thread:

769 concept and delivery into service with Northern

Wales and Borders franchise consultation and progress towards re-letting

769s for Arriva Trains Wales

Many thanks

gareth950 · 17 Jul 2017

This FAQ on the ATW news website seems to suggest the Flex units will be primarily based in the South:

How will you decide where the trains will operate?

We will be committing these trains to where they can have the greatest impact, which is likely to be commuter services into Cardiff where most of our capacity issues exist. However, we are confident that their introduction will free up a number of other units to provided increased capacity elsewhere on our network..........

And

Will trains be any longer now?

All these trains are a maximum of four cars long and are expected to run as four carriage formations. Following previous Welsh Government investment, a number of the platforms along the valleys network are long enough for up to six carriage trains with others long enough for four carriages...........

gareth950 · 17 Jul 2017

mwmbwls said:
Where do ATW run four car 150/158 sets now?

A few 4 car 150s run Mon-Fri on the valleys, with nearly all valleys diagrams on Sundays either 4 car Pacers or 4 car 150s. Ebbw Vale desperately needs 4 car 150s permanently on its current 1tph service level, as do all peak time Cardiff - Barry - Bridgend services at 1tph.

Muzer · 17 Jul 2017

It's interesting, presumably if/when the Welsh Valleys electrification happens (is that still nominally going ahead?), they can just remove the diesel engines and convert them back to vanilla 319s!

pemma · 17 Jul 2017

Muzer said:
It's interesting, presumably if/when the Welsh Valleys electrification happens (is that still nominally going ahead?), they can just remove the diesel engines and convert them back to vanilla 319s!

But if there's other EMUs available and other routes where bi-modes could be used it would make more sense to not rip out expensive modifications and to move them to other routes.

LNW-GW Joint · 17 Jul 2017

gareth950 said:
This FAQ on the ATW news website seems to suggest the Flex units will be primarily based in the South:

I agree that's what the ATW piece hints at, though WG will have the final say I expect.
But it also paints a picture of increased capacity, which is quite hard to see if other units are to be withdrawn for PRM mods.
There also appears to be no particular plan to utilise the electric capability, if they are captive on the Valley lines.
Once STJ-Newport-Cardiff is wired next year there would be options for bi-mode usage on Cardiff-Cheltenham/Ebbw Vale services.

But I still think 5 units in Cardiff doesn't sound appropriate for a type that is currently unknown outside Thameslink/Northern depots.
Their usage in the north has not been without problems, even before adding diesel capability.
They certainly won't be heading for the Cambrian without ETCS, even though they could use electric between Wolverhampton and Birmingham International.

47802 · 17 Jul 2017

LNW-GW Joint said:
Once STJ-Newport-Cardiff is wired next year there would be options for bi-mode usage on Cardiff-Cheltenham/Ebbw Vale services.

.

Where would they stop to change over power for these services? my understanding is from what I have read so far is that wont be able to change power modes on the fly like AT300's.

LNW-GW Joint · 17 Jul 2017

47802 said:
Where would they stop to change over power for these services? my understanding is from what I have read so far is that wont be able to change power modes on the fly like AT300's.

Well, at Severn Tunnel Jn, Newport or Cardiff.
That would not work for Ebbw Vale, but trains on the West London Line which can't do dynamic changeover pause near North Pole depot to switch.
It may be that ATW are just going to use them as DMUs though, which is something of a waste of their bi-mode capability.

Gareth Marston · 17 Jul 2017

LNW-GW Joint said:
I agree that's what the ATW piece hints at, though WG will have the final say I expect.
But it also paints a picture of increased capacity, which is quite hard to see if other units are to be withdrawn for PRM mods.
There also appears to be no particular plan to utilise the electric capability, if they are captive on the Valley lines.
Once STJ-Newport-Cardiff is wired next year there would be options for bi-mode usage on Cardiff-Cheltenham/Ebbw Vale services.

But I still think 5 units in Cardiff doesn't sound appropriate for a type that is currently unknown outside Thameslink/Northern depots.
Their usage in the north has not been without problems, even before adding diesel capability.
They certainly won't be heading for the Cambrian without ETCS, even though they could use electric between Wolverhampton and Birmingham International.

ATW have 24 158's and 36 150's so 5 769's sound about right for 2 158's and 3 150's being modified at any one time.

Assuming they go and play on Valleys Lines they can in theory free 5 diagrams up that are currently 150/Pacer combos. 3 150's to mods and 2 to cover 158's being modified. You then have 5 Pacers to strengthen other services in addition to the 769 diagrams having more capacity.

Bertie the bus · 17 Jul 2017

Sticking a 4-car unit on Halton Curve services would be like sticking a 10-coach Voyager on Blackpool South - Colne services. The Halton Curve services will be deserted. It will be quicker and cheaper to change at Chester for Liverpool.

LNW-GW Joint · 17 Jul 2017

I see the WG version of this announcement makes no statement about where they will be used.
There is reference to the Valleys services, but only to point out increased capacity since May 2017.
It also says they will be available "until at least 2021", so the initial leasing deal is essentially only for 3 years.

Muzer · 17 Jul 2017

Bertie the bus said:
Sticking a 4-car unit on Halton Curve services would be like sticking a 10-coach Voyager on Blackpool South - Colne services. The Halton Curve services will be deserted. It will be quicker and cheaper to change at Chester for Liverpool.

From where? And how do you work "quicker" out? I think there's absolutely no way it could be quicker. Cheaper, maybe, but we haven't really seen the fares yet. There could be some tweaks/new fares.

507021 · 17 Jul 2017

Excellent news, I'm looking forward to seeing them in action.

LNW-GW Joint · 17 Jul 2017

Muzer said:
From where? And how do you work "quicker" out? I think there's absolutely no way it could be quicker. Cheaper, maybe, but we haven't really seen the fares yet. There could be some tweaks/new fares.

Merseyrail fares are relatively low, compared to normal regional rail fares.
It's unlikely another franchise will be cheaper, and the Merseytravel zonal fares available on Merseyrail might not be offered.
We are also talking a capacity of 2 vehicles per hour via Runcorn (if a 150), as opposed to 12 per hour (4tph 507/8) via Hooton.

Bertie the bus · 17 Jul 2017

Muzer said:
From where? And how do you work "quicker" out? I think there's absolutely no way it could be quicker. Cheaper, maybe, but we haven't really seen the fares yet. There could be some tweaks/new fares.

From everwhere except Helsby and Frodsham and those two places aren't going to fill a train. It will be Todmorden Curve Mk II. A purely political decision to show how much politicians care about Northerners which will achieve nothing.

pemma · 17 Jul 2017

LNW-GW Joint said:
Merseyrail fares are relatively low, compared to normal regional rail fares.
It's unlikely another franchise will be cheaper, and the Merseytravel zonal fares available on Merseyrail might not be offered.
We are also talking a capacity of 2 vehicles per hour via Runcorn (if a 150), as opposed to 12 per hour (4tph 507/8) via Hooton.

The business case for Liverpool to Chester via Runcorn was based on using a 4 car Sprinter.

tbtc · 17 Jul 2017

Interesting to read of them potentially being able to cope with hilly routes in the Valleys on diagrams that won't see any running under the wires?

So someone in Wales thinks that they can cope with steep climbs and that the fuel tanks will manage to run wholly on diesel all day long (compared to "Northern" threads where people have expressed doubt about them being able to climb hills or survive much beyond the edge of electrification)?

Good news - there are a lot of busy lines where a "four car 150" would be suited (especially some Valley Lines where 23m stock isn't feasible) - and a 769 is essentially a "four car 150".

You'd need over thirty to fill all diagrams through Queen Street, so there's plenty scope to increase the initial batch beyond five if they are a success (given that there are 86x319s out there).

Maybe there's even a future as "spot hire" 150 replacements (for other TOCs who'll be missing a handful of 150s at a time when taking them out of service to upgrade?

gareth950 said:
So this is being hailed by some news outlets as an increase in capacity for W&B, yet these 5 extra trains will be used essentially as cover whilst presumably the equivalent number of 158s and/or 150/2s are away for mods. So no increase in capacity overall then

Given that the 150/158s are going to have to be taken out of service to bring them up to "2020" standards (regardless of whether W&B any 769s), I think it's fair to call this an increase in capacity for the franchise, compared to the alternative of losing five DMUs to refurbishment at any one time.

pemma · 17 Jul 2017

Bertie the bus said:
Sticking a 4-car unit on Halton Curve services would be like sticking a 10-coach Voyager on Blackpool South - Colne services. The Halton Curve services will be deserted. It will be quicker and cheaper to change at Chester for Liverpool.

Really? Are you saying there is no demand from Runcorn to Chester. Runcorn has a population of 61,000 so is huge compared to Colne, Lytham, Kirkham or Poulton-le-Fylde and Liverpool Airport has just a few more flights than Blackpool!

Although, if they'll only be 1tph what time the service is compared to services from Wrexham, Flint and Altrincham is important. Good connections can make the difference between the service being a success and not.

Eccles1983 · 17 Jul 2017

Bertie the bus said:
From everwhere except Helsby and Frodsham and those two places aren't going to fill a train. It will be Todmorden Curve Mk II. A purely political decision to show how much politicians care about Northerners which will achieve nothing.

Bulid it and they will come.

Both towns have a combined population of over 20k.

Adding on the toll charge over the bridges I estimate this service will be very popular.

LNW-GW Joint · 17 Jul 2017

jcollins said:
Really? Are you saying there is no demand from Runcorn to Chester. Runcorn has a population of 61,000 so is huge compared to Colne, Lytham, Kirkham or Poulton-le-Fylde and Liverpool Airport has just a few more flights than Blackpool!

Being devil's advocate, Runcorn (East) already has an hourly service to Chester (and beyond), and Runcorn (Main) has 3tph electric to Liverpool.
I can't see a vast increase in usage from there with the Halton Curve service.

The draw of Liverpool airport is overdone.
It is not in the same league as Manchester, and a through train service via Runcorn makes it only a fraction more accessible from Chester/North Wales.
You still end up on the circuitous bus from Parkway.
It will be "South Liverpool" which makes or breaks the service, in my view, and through services beyond Chester, none of which will exist at the start.

8H · 17 Jul 2017

LNW-GW Joint said:
Being devil's advocate, Runcorn (East) already has an hourly service to Chester (and beyond), and Runcorn (Main) has 3tph electric to Liverpool.
I can't see a vast increase in usage from there with the Halton Curve service.

The draw of Liverpool airport is overdone.
It is not in the same league as Manchester, and a through train service via Runcorn makes it only a fraction more accessible from Chester/North Wales.
You still end up on the circuitous bus from Parkway.
It will be "South Liverpool" which makes or breaks the service, in my view, and through services beyond Chester, none of which will exist at the start.

That all makes sense, the critical points are a route from Merseyside to Chester and North Wales as least as quick as the car, and/or tempting by fare price and attractive by frequency. Not convinced by Halton curve route on any of these criterion But I do hope it succeeds.

Five Class 319/769s for the Welsh Network

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