• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Five Class 319/769s for the Welsh Network

Status
Not open for further replies.
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

pemma

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
31,474
Location
Knutsford
Being devil's advocate, Runcorn (East) already has an hourly service to Chester (and beyond), and Runcorn (Main) has 3tph electric to Liverpool.
I can't see a vast increase in usage from there with the Halton Curve service.

The draw of Liverpool airport is overdone.
It is not in the same league as Manchester, and a through train service via Runcorn makes it only a fraction more accessible from Chester/North Wales.
You still end up on the circuitous bus from Parkway.
It will be "South Liverpool" which makes or breaks the service, in my view, and through services beyond Chester, none of which will exist at the start.

You do realise Runcorn East station isn't within walking distance of Runcorn station, unless your definition of walking distance allows for people in Flint to walk to Shotton station. And unlike Flint and Shotton there's no sensible way of getting between the two stations by rail.

Liverpool Airport might not be on a par with Manchester but there are some destinations served by Liverpool which aren't served by Manchester and not every destination available from Manchester has a daily flight or a flight at a convenient time for public transport. Would you rather have to spend all night at Manchester Airport for 4am check in or wake up at home and get to Liverpool Airport for 10am check in?
 

Camden

Established Member
Joined
30 Dec 2014
Messages
1,949
I realise that Liverpool is quite an emotive subject for some, and yes the city was mentioned, but can I suggest if people want to talk about the imminent catastrophic business case failure of the Halton Curve project (or not, as the case may/will be) perhaps take it to the Halton Curve thread instead?

Diolch ymlaen llaw!
 

8H

Member
Joined
6 Jul 2013
Messages
244
I realise that Liverpool is quite an emotive subject for some, and yes the city was mentioned, but can I suggest if people want to talk about the imminent catastrophic business case failure of the Halton Curve project (or not, as the case may/will be) perhaps take it to the Halton Curve thread instead?

Diolch ymlaen llaw!

Mae'n ddrwg a fi ??????
 
Last edited:

6Gman

Established Member
Joined
1 May 2012
Messages
8,383
Bulid it and they will come.

Yes, they said that about numerous Millennium projects - Ceramica (closed), Urbos or whatever it was called in Manchester (closed), the Pop Museum in Sheffield (closed) etc etc

The Halton Curve may - or may not - prove a success, but "build it and they will come" is a shaky concept.
 

craigybagel

Established Member
Joined
25 Oct 2012
Messages
5,061
Whilst the Halton curve would seem the perfect route for these units (keeps them close to the Northern fleet at Allerton, has a large section of AC electrification, would be easy to keep them captive to one depot so only Chester crew would need to sign them), isn't that line not due to open until December 2018? To be honest, given the hint in the announcements made already, and given its a part of the world already used to 4 car 150s, I'd be amazed if these end up any where other than the Cardiff valleys.
 

Dai Corner

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2015
Messages
6,316
Whilst the Halton curve would seem the perfect route for these units (keeps them close to the Northern fleet at Allerton, has a large section of AC electrification, would be easy to keep them captive to one depot so only Chester crew would need to sign them), isn't that line not due to open until December 2018? To be honest, given the hint in the announcements made already, and given its a part of the world already used to 4 car 150s, I'd be amazed if these end up any where other than the Cardiff valleys.

Agreed that operationally the obvious place for the 319 Flexs is based at Allerton, but WG are paying around two thirds of the cost and will want them visible where they perceive they are most needed which is the Valleys.

Looking at the longer term, it is the Pacers which will need to go by 2020 so evaluating and gaining experience of them on the Pacer-operated routes makes sense.
 

Gareth Marston

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2010
Messages
6,231
Location
Newtown Montgomeryshire
Agreed that operationally the obvious place for the 319 Flexs is based at Allerton, but WG are paying around two thirds of the cost and will want them visible where they perceive they are most needed which is the Valleys.

Looking at the longer term, it is the Pacers which will need to go by 2020 so evaluating and gaining experience of them on the Pacer-operated routes makes sense.

Read what the funders (WG/ATW) actually say not media reports Halton Curve is a massive red herring.

The real question is whether they will try and target them on a particular route/particular diagrams or whether they just go into the common user pool. As I said up thread in theory there's 4 daily diagrams they can do and provide extra capacity plus they can free up 4/5 units to strengthen other services.

The other real point of interest is how ATW will target the 158's to be withdrawn for modification. Currently 2 158's overnight in S Wales it seems fairly logical to take these and replace them with 150's displaced by the Flex units and therefore no more 158's will operate in S Wales apart from maybe a couple of Holyhead to Cardiff diagrams as Cardiff Mainline will have to keep traction knowledge as they often have to step up on Marches services when short of 175's.
 

craigybagel

Established Member
Joined
25 Oct 2012
Messages
5,061
Read what the funders (WG/ATW) actually say not media reports Halton Curve is a massive red herring.

The real question is whether they will try and target them on a particular route/particular diagrams or whether they just go into the common user pool. As I said up thread in theory there's 4 daily diagrams they can do and provide extra capacity plus they can free up 4/5 units to strengthen other services.

The other real point of interest is how ATW will target the 158's to be withdrawn for modification. Currently 2 158's overnight in S Wales it seems fairly logical to take these and replace them with 150's displaced by the Flex units and therefore no more 158's will operate in S Wales apart from maybe a couple of Holyhead to Cardiff diagrams as Cardiff Mainline will have to keep traction knowledge as they often have to step up on Marches services when short of 175's.

The answer to both of your questions I suspect is traincrew related. If you make them common user you'll have to train up a lot more staff, and given how few of these units there are, and how close to the end of the franchise we are (after which presumably there are going to be some very large changes taking place) it would make sense to train as few people as possible - realistically that means either just the Valleys crews, just Cardiff Mainline (and keep them on Maesteg, Ebbw Vale and Cheltenham services) or Chester for the Halton Curve.

Take 158s off South Wales and Carmarthen lose competency - meaning you can't use them on Manchester-South Wales services without shuffling things around at Cardiff frequently, and given the size of Cardiff Mainline depot 2 Holyhead diagrams (which incidentally would use 2 units all day) I think wouldn't be enough to keep them competent either. Until a decision is made to commit them 100% to Cambrian and Birmingham-Holyhead services (which hopefully with new stock coming next franchise will be possible) I'm struggling to see a way of freeing up 158s for mods without pinching them from the North.

There is one daily diagram for a 158 that starts in Crewe, finishes in Chester, and spends the whole day away from the Cambrian (it's mostly on Llandudno to Manchester services). Swap that out for a 150 released from the south by a 319 and you have a fairly simple solution.
 
Last edited:

Gareth Marston

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2010
Messages
6,231
Location
Newtown Montgomeryshire
The answer to both of your questions I suspect is traincrew related. If you make them common user you'll have to train up a lot more staff, and given how few of these units there are, and how close to the end of the franchise we are (after which presumably there are going to be some very large changes taking place) it would make sense to train as few people as possible - realistically that means either just the Valleys crews, just Cardiff Mainline (and keep them on Maesteg, Ebbw Vale and Cheltenham services) or Chester for the Halton Curve.

Take 158s off South Wales and Carmarthen lose competency - meaning you can't use them on Manchester-South Wales services without shuffling things around at Cardiff frequently, and given the size of Cardiff Mainline depot 2 Holyhead diagrams (which incidentally would use 2 units all day) I think wouldn't be enough to keep them competent either. Until a decision is made to commit them 100% to Cambrian and Birmingham-Holyhead services (which hopefully with new stock coming next franchise will be possible) I'm struggling to see a way of freeing up 158s for mods without pinching them from the North.

There is one daily diagram for a 158 that starts in Crewe, finishes in Chester, and spends the whole day away from the Cambrian (it's mostly on Llandudno to Manchester services). Swap that out for a 150 released from the south by a 319 and you have a fairly simple solution.

Indeed I think "having to be seen in Cardiff" is not the optimum operational/logistical solution for them. the 158 diagramming seems like it could be a headache
 

snowball

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2013
Messages
7,674
Location
Leeds
Have any 25kV wires been commissioned in Wales yet?
Maliphant depot, Swansea.

What are the proposed commissioning dates?
Paddington to Cardiff is supposed to be operational by December 2018.

Is it now envisaged that work about to start on the Halton Curve will include preliminaries for electrification?
Seems unlikely as one of the two lines it connects is not electrified or planned for electrification.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,555
Location
Mold, Clwyd
Paddington to Cardiff is supposed to be operational by December 2018.

As is the Halton Curve (in an infrastructure sense, dictated by the signalling changes).
I'm not sure any date has been confirmed for start of passenger service.
Major modification programmes are often delayed badly (eg the 458 reconfiguration).
The Northern 769s will need to be proved in service before WG introduce theirs.
Northern were originally very slow at getting their 319s into service (crew/maintenance staff training etc).
 

Mordac

Established Member
Joined
5 Mar 2016
Messages
2,303
Location
Birmingham
I wonder how it's possible for these Flex units to match the performance of a doubled 150, when a 150 has two motored bogies (so four on a 4 car doubled train ) and these units only have two?
 

Gareth Marston

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2010
Messages
6,231
Location
Newtown Montgomeryshire
I wonder how it's possible for these Flex units to match the performance of a doubled 150, when a 150 has two motored bogies (so four on a 4 car doubled train ) and these units only have two?

You never see doubled up 150's there usually Pacer/150 combos or doubled Pacers so the whole tt is based on what they can do not the 150's.

Anyway Heads of the Valleys trains almost roll back down the hill to Cardiff due to line speeds/ stations spaced closely.
 

craigybagel

Established Member
Joined
25 Oct 2012
Messages
5,061
I wonder how it's possible for these Flex units to match the performance of a doubled 150, when a 150 has two motored bogies (so four on a 4 car doubled train ) and these units only have two?

By virtue of them having twice as much power going through those bogies presumably? Although it'll make Autumn rather interesting.

You never see doubled up 150's there usually Pacer/150 combos or doubled Pacers so the whole tt is based on what they can do not the 150's.

Anyway Heads of the Valleys trains almost roll back down the hill to Cardiff due to line speeds/ stations spaced closely.

Plenty of doubled up 150s running around
 

adrock1976

Established Member
Joined
10 Dec 2013
Messages
4,450
Location
What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
I've seen a couple of references to the Class 158s in this thread.

A very quick question - do the Cardiff Canton based 158s have the radio equipment installed like the Machynlleth based 158s do to enable them to operate between Shrewsbury - Aberystwyth and Pwlhelli, or are the Canton based ones kept off that route?
 

berneyarms

Established Member
Joined
26 Nov 2013
Messages
2,811
Location
Dublin
I've seen a couple of references to the Class 158s in this thread.

A very quick question - do the Cardiff Canton based 158s have the radio equipment installed like the Machynlleth based 158s do to enable them to operate between Shrewsbury - Aberystwyth and Pwlhelli, or are the Canton based ones kept off that route?

It's a single pool of 158s - there's none based at Canton as such - they all are based at Machynlleth.

A 158 does three days in South Wales, coming down from Shrewsbury on the first train of the day, does the tour of South Wales for three days before heading back up the Marches and eventually back to Machynlleth.
 

craigybagel

Established Member
Joined
25 Oct 2012
Messages
5,061
It's a single pool of 158s - there's none based at Canton as such - they all are based at Machynlleth.

A 158 does three days in South Wales, coming down from Shrewsbury on the first train of the day, does the tour of South Wales for three days before heading back up the Marches and eventually back to Machynlleth.

In theory anyway - the set that came down from Shrewsbury this morning is going back north again tonight but given a building has collapsed on to the line near Cardiff things are a little disjointed today!
 

berneyarms

Established Member
Joined
26 Nov 2013
Messages
2,811
Location
Dublin
In theory anyway - the set that came down from Shrewsbury this morning is going back north again tonight but given a building has collapsed on to the line near Cardiff things are a little disjointed today!

Let's try and stick to the diagrams rather than exceptions!!

It just gets way too confusing otherwise for people to follow!

;)
 

Gareth Marston

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2010
Messages
6,231
Location
Newtown Montgomeryshire
However next train could be doubled up Pacer/ single Pacer or 150/pacer combo the tt does not assume it's doubled up 150 bit is built around the slowest poorly accelerated option.

Sorry for poor post what I'm saying is that 319 Flex don't need acceleration profile of doubled up 150's just that of a single 142/143.
 

craigybagel

Established Member
Joined
25 Oct 2012
Messages
5,061
However next train could be doubled up Pacer/ single Pacer or 150/pacer combo the tt does not assume it's doubled up 150 bit is built around the slowest poorly accelerated option.

True enough - on the valleys at least it's a bit like Northern rail where anything can turn up! Bit more complicated on the mainline though since there are more restrictions on where 14x can go. But yes, the timetables do take that into account.

Let's try and stick to the diagrams rather than exceptions!!

It just gets way too confusing otherwise for people to follow!

;)

Fair point! The only reason I know is that I was going to post the 3 day diagram but when I went to check it out realised it's been messed about with today. But yes, suffice to say they come down on the 0610 Shrewsbury-Maesteg, and spend 3 days in the south before returning North on the 20:17 Cardiff-Manchester. The 150s and 153s do something similar in reverse, spending most of their time in the south but coming up north for 3 days (153 via the Heart of Wales) or 5 (150 via the last Marches service of the day in each direction) at a time.

In theory, if enough of these new units end up in the franchise the same thing could be done, with units being used both in the North and the South, but with just the 5 coming initially that seems very unlikely.
 

Mordac

Established Member
Joined
5 Mar 2016
Messages
2,303
Location
Birmingham
By virtue of them having twice as much power going through those bogies presumably? Although it'll make Autumn rather interesting.
But will they? A pair of 150s has 1140bhp at engine (4x285bhp). Just how powerful are those engines they'll be fitting to the 319s?
 
Last edited:

BR60062

Member
Joined
2 Aug 2016
Messages
154
Location
Oakham
But will they? A pair of 150s has 1140bhp at engine (4x285bhp). Just how powerful are those engines they'll be fitting to the 319s?
I think this might have been said before. But I think it would be better to install a generator pack (something like a Cummins QSK19 gen set) in the trailer next to the toilet and use the gen set pack to feed 750 volts DC into the former third rail system. As I think its going to be a tight fit to shoehorn two small diesel units on the undersides of the driving units :).

The conversion would be cheaper and easier to install. I am certain there is enough space for a fuel tank in the MSOL car as well underneath?

Just a thought.
 

Jez

Established Member
Joined
22 Jan 2011
Messages
1,231
Location
Neath
I guess they will use them wherever they feel they will increase capacity the best. If they used them on valley lines that could free up quite a few 150s to cover the South Wales 158 diagrams. Or they could use them on North Wales coast/Manchester-Llandudno and free up some 175s to cover the 158 South Wales diagrams and further increase capacity on the marches. At least then the Fishguard boat train would be booked for a 175 not 150!
 

Camden

Established Member
Joined
30 Dec 2014
Messages
1,949
It's already been put out there that they will have their electrical equipment intact, so supplying power to these as a diesel-electric is how they would have to operate.

As to where they will go, it will be somewhere that has at least some wires - otherwise there's no point.
 

jayah

On Moderation
Joined
18 Apr 2011
Messages
1,889
By virtue of them having twice as much power going through those bogies presumably? Although it'll make Autumn rather interesting.



Plenty of doubled up 150s running around

The 150 is 1980s technology. Modern DMUs use truck engines. Powerful ones. The MAN 2876 applied to rail is rated 315-740hp vs 286hp per Class 150 vehicle.

They have already modelled performance Manchester - Buxton uphill and it is comfortable against a pair of 150s and easily beats a pacer, which of course has one pair of axles per coach.

Flex looks like a great idea. 25Kv to Hazel Grove and then a DMU that can shift.

Perhaps Network Rail should go and cut down the bloody trees in the Valleys instead of having them act as a pseudo constraint on rolling stock policy?
 

Jez

Established Member
Joined
22 Jan 2011
Messages
1,231
Location
Neath
True enough - on the valleys at least it's a bit like Northern rail where anything can turn up! Bit more complicated on the mainline though since there are more restrictions on where 14x can go. But yes, the timetables do take that into account.



Fair point! The only reason I know is that I was going to post the 3 day diagram but when I went to check it out realised it's been messed about with today. But yes, suffice to say they come down on the 0610 Shrewsbury-Maesteg, and spend 3 days in the south before returning North on the 20:17 Cardiff-Manchester. The 150s and 153s do something similar in reverse, spending most of their time in the south but coming up north for 3 days (153 via the Heart of Wales) or 5 (150 via the last Marches service of the day in each direction) at a time.

In theory, if enough of these new units end up in the franchise the same thing could be done, with units being used both in the North and the South, but with just the 5 coming initially that seems very unlikely.

Out of interest what do the 153s and 150s do during the time spent up North? I know they use 150s on Crewe-Chester shuttle, Conwy Valley and Wrexham services but what's the cycle? I thought the 153 spent one night up North now the Crewe-Shrewsbury local is a 150 for most of the day as a result of the first HOW running to Crewe and the last one running from Crewe. I thought the 1821 from Swansea arrived into Shrewsbury and then formed the first one down the next morning and then did a swanline diagram before returning to Canton?

I know roughly what the cycle is for the 158s down South, first Shrewsbury-Maesteg service down, does some Maesteg and Ebbw Vale services, spends night in Canton, then does Cheltenham-Maesteg, Maesteg to Gloucester and the afternoon/evening Gloucester-Fishguard. Spends night in Carmarthen, then Carmarthen-Pembroke Dock, Pembroke Dock to Swansea, Fishguard Boat train, back to Cardiff and then the evening Cardiff-Manchester.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top