Five Class 319/769s for the Welsh Network

pemma · 18 Jul 2017

If a 769 gets cleared for Buxton then it's achieved something which a Pacer cannot due to Pacers failing to get cleared for the Buxton line.

RailUK Forums

gareth950 · 18 Jul 2017

Camden said:
It's already been put out there that they will have their electrical equipment intact, so supplying power to these as a diesel-electric is how they would have to operate.

As to where they will go, it will be somewhere that has at least some wires - otherwise there's no point.

The point of ATW getting these 5 extra trains is to allow 150s and 158s to go away for PRM mods work and allow increases in capacity where possible. The primary objective of Welsh Govt finally paying out for these trains is not so they can be tested out as bi-modes from what i've read. They'll be used more like straight forward DMU's on busy commuter routes, which unfortunately for most posters on this thread, means the Valleys and SWML commuter routes into Cardiff.
If the Flex 319s are also keeping original 3+2 seating this also makes sense.

Even though ATW press office have already strongly hinted where these extra trains will be used, please don't stop the endless speculation about where these trains will end up until they arrive in Wales though.

craigybagel · 18 Jul 2017

Jez said:
Out of interest what do the 153s and 150s do during the time spent up North? I know they use 150s on Crewe-Chester shuttle, Conwy Valley and Wrexham services but what's the cycle? I thought the 153 spent one night up North now the Crewe-Shrewsbury local is a 150 for most of the day as a result of the first HOW running to Crewe and the last one running from Crewe. I thought the 1821 from Swansea arrived into Shrewsbury and then formed the first one down the next morning and then did a swanline diagram before returning to Canton?
r.

The 150 off the 2155 Cardiff Crewe goes ECS to Shrewsbury the next morning, to form the 0600 SHR-WRX. It then spends the day on Wrexham Bidstons, finishing up in Chester. As far as I know, the next day it goes ECS to Llandudno Junction to run the Blaneau branch all day, and then finishes up in Crewe. The next day it goes ECS to Chester and then on to Llandudno to work an early train back to Crewe, and then spends the day on Crewe-Chester shuttles, finishing up in Chester. The next day it's ECS to Wrexham to do the other Bidston diagram, which finishes at Shrewsbury in the evening and then forms the late night Shrewsbury-Cardiff to get it back home to Canton.

With the 153s, the unit that arrives from the last heart of Wales stables at Shrewsbury. Next morning it goes down to Llandrindod, up to Crewe, back down to Swansea, back up to Crewe and stables at Crewe for the night. On Day 3 it goes ECS to Shrewsbury to do the first through heart of Wales to Cardiff, and then it stays in the south. There's also the booked 150 diagram on the heart of Wales that you mentioned (early from Swansea to Crewe, spends the day on Crewe-Shrewsbury locals then back down the heart of Wales on the last one in the evening) that is regularly substituted with a 153 - during the day some of the Crewe Shrewsbury locals are worked by Chester crews and they don't have a lot of work on 153s so it helps keep them competent.

Take all the above with a huge pinch of salt though - even if I've got it 100% right which I can't guarantee its all subject to a lot of last minute changes.

craigybagel · 18 Jul 2017

gareth950 said:
They'll be used more like straight forward DMU's on busy commuter routes, which unfortunately for most posters on this thread, means the Valleys and SWML commuter routes into Cardiff.

One, or the other - almost certainly not both units they want to spend a fortune in training.

childwallblues · 19 Jul 2017

LNW-GW Joint said:
As is the Halton Curve (in an infrastructure sense, dictated by the signalling changes).
I'm not sure any date has been confirmed for start of passenger service.
.

December 2018.

PaulHarding150 · 19 Jul 2017

I'm just reading a statement on rail that was made in the National Assembly for Wales yesterday and the questions that followed, many of which were naturally about this announcement.

A back bench Labour AM asked if these four car trains could be split and the Minister said:

Ill check on exactly how the rolling stock can be configured. They are presented as five four-carriage trains, but my understanding is that they can be subdivided and lengthened or shortened as appropriate, but I will check on that and write to Members.

Can these be split to run as a 2 car unit?

61653 HTAFC · 19 Jul 2017

PaulHarding150 said:
I'm just reading a statement on rail that was made in the National Assembly for Wales yesterday and the questions that followed, many of which were naturally about this announcement.

A back bench Labour AM asked if these four car trains could be split and the Minister said:

Can these be split to run as a 2 car unit?

They could, but you'd need to adopt the original mode of operation of the Ffestiniog! :lol:

PaulHarding150 · 19 Jul 2017

Well the area is hilly!

Shocking that the transport minister does't know the basic facts mind you.

Muzer · 19 Jul 2017

At the very least they'd need to build driving cabs at the other end. This is not entirely impossible as the 153s show, but probably isn't worth it.

Bletchleyite · 19 Jul 2017

PaulHarding150 said:
Can these be split to run as a 2 car unit?

No. 3-car is the shortest you can go, as the end coaches are both unpowered trailers. One of the middle coaches is essentially a locomotive with seats in so you can't do without it.

You could form them into 3s and 5s if you wanted by moving the intermediate trailers around, though, I expect.

If you wanted 2-car DMUs you would have to convert ex-SWT/Southern 2-car EMUs of a similar construction, assuming they'd have room for the engines. But TBH I think the 2-car DMU has had its day[1], demand is just too high for them in most places now. 3-car is the realistic minimum for everything other than small branches.

[1] This is why I think Northern were fools for ordering new 2-car sets which will just end up running around as non-gangwayed pairs.

CosherB · 19 Jul 2017

PaulHarding150 said:
Well the area is hilly!

Shocking that the transport minister does't know the basic facts mind you.

Why? Ken Skates AM is a politician briefed by his department, not a rail boffin. :roll:

Just look what he's responsible for - do you think he's an expert in all of these areas?

The Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure is responsible for:

The provision of support and advice to assist the establishment, growth, modernisation or development of business in Wales

The promotion of Wales as a location for business and investment

The promotion of Welsh exports

Entrepreneurship, enterprise and business information

Finance Wales

Development Bank

Steel

Environmental improvements in relation to industrial and commercial developments

Economic advisory panels

Social enterprise and the social economy

Coordination of cross-cutting measures to promote economic opportunity for all (individual Cabinet Secretaries will lead in their respective portolio areas)

Management of property assets held with the Economy Development portfolio and supporting the delivery of property infrastructure (sites and premises)

National Infrastructure Commission

Transport policy, including the development of an integrated transport system in Wales

Road safety including provision of safer routes to Schools, transport for children and young people and regulation of pedestrian crossings and on-street parking

Road transport, including construction, improvement and maintenance of the motorway and trunk road network in Wales, except those parts of the Second Severn Crossing and the approaches thereto which are situated in Wales (not devolved) (NB. roads other than trunk roads are the responsibility of Local Authorities)

Delivery of passenger rail services through the Wales and Borders franchise

Funding and administration of programmes to Local Authorities and other bodies designed to deliver a range of transport schemes and services

Ports policy

Tourism in and to Wales, including the marketing and promotion of Wales as a tourist destination and regulation of the tourism industry

Major events

Elite sports

National strategy and policy for the historic environment in Wales

National strategy and policy for culture creativity and the arts, including Creative Wales

National Botanic Garden of Wales

Non-devolved cultural property legislation and tax relief schemes

Oversight of the distribution of Lottery funding within Wales

.

http://gov.wales/about/cabinet/cabinetm/ken-skates/?lang=en

PaulHarding150 · 19 Jul 2017

CosherB said:
Why? Ken Skates AM is a politician briefed by his department, not a rail boffin. :roll:

Just look what he's responsible for - do you think he's an expert in all of these areas?

I don't expect him to have an encyclopedic knowledge of everything he's responsible for... but he was responding to a question from an AM from his own party during a statement on rail, the day after he'd publicly announced this deal and after he's s[pent 12 months slagging off the TOC.

As the Minister he would have signed off on this deal after being advised by his officials, when surly this issue would have come up?

I would expect him to know a basic fact like that.

I also know that some people on this forum would be up in arms if a UK Government Minister had made such a school boy error in Parliament.

notlob.divad · 19 Jul 2017

It has already been covered on this forum before, when 319s where first coming to the North West.

319s and therefore the future 769, cannot easily be reformed from 4 car units. Firstly the motors are all in one carriage, the two driving cabs are in un-powered trailers, and the remaining centre carriage contains the compressor that provides compressed air, and other ancillaries. So the answer to the ministers question is a pretty certain no.

CosherB · 19 Jul 2017

PaulHarding150 said:
I also know that some people on this forum would be up in arms if a UK Government Minister had made such a school boy error in Parliament.

You may think this is a school boy error, I beg to differ.

Bletchleyite · 19 Jul 2017

notlob.divad said:
It has already been covered on this forum before, when 319s where first coming to the North West.

319s and therefore the future 769, cannot easily be reformed from 4 car units. Firstly the motors are all in one carriage, the two driving cabs are in un-powered trailers, and the remaining centre carriage contains the compressor that provides compressed air, and other ancillaries. So the answer to the ministers question is a pretty certain no.

Ah yes, I forgot that. That indeed was the reason 321s went from LM to Scotland to be down-formed to 3 coaches, then almost identical 319s went from Thameslink to LM to replace them.

pemma · 19 Jul 2017

Bletchleyite said:
Ah yes, I forgot that. That indeed was the reason 321s went from LM to Scotland to be down-formed to 3 coaches, then almost identical 319s went from Thameslink to LM to replace them.

Abellio Scotrail did a grab for off-lease EMUs as a result of the FCC units all being off-lease at the end of the franchise but as Govia won the new franchise they arranged for the LM ones to go to Scotland instead. Abellio could have gone for anything in the FCC fleet (including 319s) but they obviously wanted the 321s. Ironically Scotrail lost a few 170s earlier than intended due to Govia doing a grab for off-lease DMUs and the franchise that needed replacements for 170s (TPE) weren't allowed to do a grab as DfT hadn't extended the franchise at that point.

edwin_m · 19 Jul 2017

As well as the reasons mentioned, the shortened 321s are also effectively identical to the 320s already running in Scotland, whereas shortened 319s would have been a new design requiring extra training and spares holdings.

Ebbw Vale sounds like a good route for the 769s in Wales, being relatively self-contained and from what I hear requiring at least 4 cars for most of the time. They could probably use 25kV on the main line section once it is finished.

PHILIPE · 19 Jul 2017

edwin_m said:
As well as the reasons mentioned, the shortened 321s are also effectively identical to the 320s already running in Scotland, whereas shortened 319s would have been a new design requiring extra training and spares holdings.

Ebbw Vale sounds like a good route for the 769s in Wales, being relatively self-contained and from what I hear requiring at least 4 cars for most of the time. They could probably use 25kV on the main line section once it is finished.

The Ebbw Vale route is not now self contained. It was at first but hasn't been for some years now and units can interchange with routes such Maesteg, Cardiff Valleys and even Fishguard Harbour. The days of the layover of almost an hour at Cardiff went some time ago now.

Gareth Marston · 19 Jul 2017

PHILIPE said:
The Ebbw Vale route is not now self contained. It was at first but hasn't been for some years now and units can interchange with routes such Maesteg, Cardiff Valleys and even Fishguard Harbour. The days of the layover of almost an hour at Cardiff went some time ago now.

Could you run Maesteg to Ebbw Vale hourly self contained with 4 units?

PHILIPE · 19 Jul 2017

Gareth Marston said:
Could you run Maesteg to Ebbw Vale hourly self contained with 4 units?

It could be done but very tight and no flexibility if anything goes wrong. 4 Cars would be overkill for Maesteg except perhaps an odd peak time train. 3 perhaps would suffice.

capital12 · 19 Jul 2017

PHILIPE said:
The Ebbw Vale route is not now self contained. It was at first but hasn't been for some years now and units can interchange with routes such Maesteg, Cardiff Valleys and even Fishguard Harbour. The days of the layover of almost an hour at Cardiff went some time ago now.

Nothing to say it couldn't be self contained again though? If that was what was needed.

PHILIPE · 19 Jul 2017

capital12 said:
Nothing to say it couldn't be self contained again though? If that was what was needed.

Quite, but their purpose is to cover for 150s and 158s to go to Works for PRM Mods and also to help to alleviate the severe overcrowding that ATW have so it wouldn't be very practicable to have 4 Car units running around carrying fresh air (quote Alistair Darling). My suggestion would be to utilise them in the Cardiff Valleys replacing 4 Car Pacer formations, these on their own being able to provide greater flexilibity. Also, there are two train crew Depots at Cardiff although they "live" together, being Cardiff Valleys and Cardiff Main Line. If working in the Cardiff Valleys, you would only need to train one group togethetr with Rhymney and Treherbert.

John R · 19 Jul 2017

Even better would be to replace 2 x Cl 150 with the Cl 769, and then use the 2 x Cl 150 displaced to replace a 2 x pacer working. That way you get a ripple effect whereby a lot more services get enhanced capacity. And it doesn't stop there, as the 2 x pacers could then be used to strengthen other services, or replace a Class 150, which then replaces a pacer, and so on. It's surprising how many services could benefit in this way.

With the extra stock, there might also now be the option of forming a couple of 3 car 150s. eg. Does the Ebbw Vale line need 4 car units? I suspect that is stated as currently that is the only option (excluding Cl 153s). In reality, a third car would probably suffice, and would be a big improvement. So 3 car 150s could be an efficient way to optimise the capacity offered on certain services (not just Ebbw Vale).

Rick1984 · 19 Jul 2017

notlob.divad said:
It has already been covered on this forum before, when 319s where first coming to the North West.

319s and therefore the future 769, cannot easily be reformed from 4 car units. Firstly the motors are all in one carriage, the two driving cabs are in un-powered trailers, and the remaining centre carriage contains the compressor that provides compressed air, and other ancillaries. So the answer to the ministers question is a pretty certain no.

You could remove the cabs. Scrap the driving trailers and weld the cabs back onto the intermediate cars. 2- car unit!

PHILIPE · 19 Jul 2017

John R said:
Even better would be to replace 2 x Cl 150 with the Cl 769, and then use the 2 x Cl 150 displaced to replace a 2 x pacer working. That way you get a ripple effect whereby a lot more services get enhanced capacity. And it doesn't stop there, as the 2 x pacers could then be used to strengthen other services, or replace a Class 150, which then replaces a pacer, and so on. It's surprising how many services could benefit in this way.

With the extra stock, there might also now be the option of forming a couple of 3 car 150s. eg. Does the Ebbw Vale line need 4 car units? I suspect that is stated as currently that is the only option (excluding Cl 153s). In reality, a third car would probably suffice, and would be a big improvement. So 3 car 150s could be an efficient way to optimise the capacity offered on certain services (not just Ebbw Vale).

The units which work the Ebbw Vales do not stick to that route only. Currently during the day there might be about 6 x 150s, 1 x 158 and 1 x 175. A displaced Pacer could strengthen at peak times although the life of the Pacers may only be the same as the 153s which mostly strengthen now.
As mentioned eariler the Ebbw Vales were self-contained but had a layover of nearly an hour at Cardiff but that's not the position now and, at the moment, we don't know what the service will look like after the new franchise starts.

There are only a couple of 2 Car 150s in the Valleys anyway.

mwmbwls · 20 Jul 2017

gareth950 said:
This FAQ on the ATW news website seems to suggest the Flex units will be primarily based in the South:

Looking at this in greater detail we find:

Welsh Government and Arriva Trains Wales announce additional trains
17 July 2017
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRXCtjINCHI
This Porterbrook video shows the physical layout of the 769's - as with new car brochures - it details the SE Lux with optional extras version. ATW for reasons of economy and expediency are going for a more bare bones variant.

https://arrivatrainswales-newsroom....rriva-trains-wales-announce-additional-trains

Economy and Infrastructure Secretary Ken Skates has announced the addition of 5 extra 4-carriage trains to boost and improve rolling stock available in Wales. The class 319 flex bi-mode trains have been funded by Welsh Government with £1m of support from Arriva Trains Wales, and will be added to existing rolling stock in 2018.

Their introduction will allow for improvements to be made to some of our existing trains to make them more accessible.

Porterbrook, our rolling stock partners for the additional trains have produced a video with details of how the '319 Flex' trains work which you can view below.

What does this mean for our customers?
We’ve answered some potential questions our customers might have below

How many trains have you ordered and will this help me get a seat?
We have ordered 5 trains with 4 carriages each - 20 carriages with a total of 1,500 extra seats. This year we were able to double the capacity on some of our busiest trains into Cardiff giving us 600 extra seats per day, which had greatly increased capacity. So another 1,500 will make an even more significant impact on helping customers get a seat for their journey.

Why is it that we are getting the trains in mid-2018?
It has been well documented how limited the availability of diesel rolling stock is in the UK. The majority of trains which are compatible with ATW’s network are already committed to other train operators who face similar challenges around capacity. The 319 ‘Flex’ solution represents an innovative way to make use of electric trains on non-electrified lines. There remains a significant lack of compatible diesel rolling stock, but this will be a huge help.

How will you decide where the trains will operate?
We will be committing these trains to where they can have the greatest impact, which is likely to be commuter services into Cardiff where most of our capacity issues exist. However, we are confident that their introduction will free up a number of other units to provided increased capacity elsewhere on our network. We will work with the Welsh Government to identify where this additional capacity will be targeted across Wales and the borders and with our partners in Network Rail to start producing the timetable whilst the trains are being converted.

Will all areas of the ATW network benefit from these additional trains?
We carry out detailed studies on our busiest trains on a regular basis to ensure we allocate rolling stock to the right places. Even if the new trains are only deployed in one area of our network, this will give us an opportunity to free up trains currently operating in those areas and therefore cascade rolling stock to other parts of our network.

Will these be replacing some of the older trains, such as the pacers?
The pacers will run alongside these additional trains to the end of this franchise and decisions on their future will be decided by the Welsh Government and the successful bidder for the next Wales and Borders franchise. Additional rolling stock such as the 319s will give us more flexibility to decide what to do with the remaining rolling stock.

Why have you only been able to do this now as the franchise comes to an end?
Having identified the need for additional diesel compatible rolling stock, our partners in the rolling stock leasing company, Porterbrook, have been working carefully to develop this brand-new solution, which represents an innovative approach to making more trains available to operators, and it is only now that they have become available to us.

How long do you expect these trains to be in operation?
The 319s were originally built in the 1980s and are still excellent trains which meet safety and accessibility requirements. Most of our current rolling stock is from this period, but despite that we have been the best train operator in the UK for right time performance on several occasions this year and our engineers do a fantastic job of keeping our fleet one of the most reliable in the UK.

How reliable do you expect them to be?
All our trains are given thorough examinations and services on a regular basis to keep them running safely and we are confident that our engineers can quickly rectify any faults that do arise. We are already working hard on ensuring that the new trains will have everything they need to be cared for to the same standards as our current fleet of trains.

Why are you converting electric trains to diesel?
Our customers need solutions which are fast and effective in order to help deal with our current capacity limitations which we have today. This is a good interim solution which will improve their experience in a much shorter period of time than the planned electrification and new rolling stock which is expected to be delivered under the new franchise. The future developments remain an essential part of the development of the transport network within Wales and we look forward to playing out part in helping deliver these.
Will trains be any longer now?
All these trains are a maximum of four cars long and are expected to run as four carriage formations. Following previous Welsh Government investment, a number of the platforms along the valleys network are long enough for up to six carriage trains with others long enough for four carriages. We will work with the Welsh Government to identify where the additional capacity generated from the introduction of these extra trains will be targeted and continue to work without partners in Network Rail to look at building the case for infrastructure enhancements which may result in even longer trains in the future.

Do these units need to go back to electric if/when lines are electrified?
These trains are able to run under diesel or electric power, on electrified and non-electrified lines, and as such are ready operate wherever they are needed.

Will they be painted in Arriva colours or will that not be done until the franchise is announced?
Our absolute priority is getting these trains into service as quickly as possible. Painting is something which could potentially slow down the process of getting them into service, so they will likely remain in their current colours. It may be that they are repainted as a part of the future franchise.

Will they have first class facilities on board?
The likelihood is that the types of services they will operate will be short distance commuter or inter-urban services, and therefore, in order to get them on to our network as fast as possible for our customers, we haven’t prioritized the installation of first class.

Will they have power sockets on board?
Yes, these trains will be fitted with USB sockets for passengers to power or charge their devices. As a part of the PRM modification to the 150 fleet (which predominantly operate on the Valleys network), they will also be having power sockets fitted.

How is this being funded?
ATW are funding the trains in partnership with the Welsh Government for the remainder of the current franchise, with ATW investing over £1m and WG investing £1.9m. However, the trains are likely to remain with the future franchise for a number of years, and therefore, the majority of the lease costs are likely to be funded as a part of the future franchise arrangements. It therefore would not have been appropriate for ATW to fund the full costs.

Is this funding a part of the £2.8m Arriva are investing this year?
No. The £1m investment from ATW in the new rolling stock is over and above our current 2017 investment plan, through which we are improving the experience for our customers and investing in existing rolling stock.

Will this mean any new jobs?
We expect there to be some additional recruitment however we are unable to say at this stage exactly how many additional members of staff will be required. We are currently developing the plans around how we are making best use of these trains and how we will be incorporating them into our engineering processes.

Will this mean that I will always now get a seat?
We cannot guarantee passengers will always be able to get a seat, especially at peak times and on event days round the network where demand is exceptionally busy. However, these trains will be a major step in the right direction and will improve the customer experience for a large number of people. We will continue to work with our partners in Welsh Government and Network Rail to improve the experience for our customers.

What does PRM stand for?
Persons of Reduced Mobility.

How does this affect rail operators?
Government has set legislation that trains should be fully PRM compliant by January 1st 2020. While the latest fleets of trains are fully compliant with accessibility requirements, some older trains do not meet all these conditions, so work is ongoing across the UK to get such trains up to that standard.

What does that mean for customers?
Essentially it means that people with reduced mobility can use the train in the same way as people with full mobility, ensuring there are no barriers to them accessing public transport. This includes full wheelchair access and an accessible toilet where there are toilet facilities already available. By being PRM compliant it ensures that we can offer the best possible service to all our customers and break down any barriers preventing those with mobility issues from seeing the railway as a viable means of transport. In the Wales and Borders Franchise we want everyone to have the confidence that they can use our trains in comfort and that they will live up to these high standards.
And what does it include on the train?
The key elements include an accessible toilet, wheelchair storage space, grab handles, clear colour coordination within the carriage for those with visual impairments. As a part of this work, we will also take the opportunity to install power sockets on the 150 fleet of trains.

childwallblues · 20 Jul 2017

They still have to find 2 x 150 to work Halton Curve services in December 2018.

PHILIPE · 20 Jul 2017

childwallblues said:
They still have to find 2 x 150 to work Halton Curve services in December 2018.

That's what many people seem to think, but W & B may not even be running the service yet. Wait for the W & B Franchise map first.

notlob.divad · 20 Jul 2017

childwallblues said:
They still have to find 2 x 150 to work Halton Curve services in December 2018.

PHILIPE said:
That's what many people seem to think, but W & B may not even be running the service yet. Wait for the W & B Franchise map first.

Agreed, Merseytravel are sponsering the halton curve service for the first 2-3 years, they have expressed a desire for it to be a w&b run service in the long run, but that is not definite.

Northern currently run the parlimentary service over the route so they would be the logical starting point for the first years of the route.

It would make sense to be a 769, however it will not be one of these 5.

notlob.divad · 20 Jul 2017

childwallblues said:
They still have to find 2 x 150 to work Halton Curve services in December 2018.

PHILIPE said:
That's what many people seem to think, but W & B may not even be running the service yet. Wait for the W & B Franchise map first.

Agreed, Merseytravel are sponsering the halton curve service for the first 2-3 years, they have expressed a desire for it to be a w&b run service in the long run, but that is not definite.

Northern currently run the parlimentary service over the route so they would be the logical starting point for the first years of the route.

It would make sense to be a 769, however it will not be one of these 5.

Five Class 319/769s for the Welsh Network

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