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Wales & Borders Franchise Consultation

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kieron

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As I mentioned in another thread, there have been issues with keeping Chester drivers competent on 153s - when the Crewe-Shewsbury local went over to 150 operation, it meant that Chester drivers only had weekend work on 153s. Given the size of the link in question, it was something of an issue.
Are there any other lines where Chester drivers would ever take a 153? I take it it's not just a question of "153s are used on Crewe-Shrewsbury so drivers are used to them, and the drivers learn 153s so they can do Crewe-Shrewsbury", but I'm fairly sure they're never used in North Wales.
 
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Jez

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Are there any other lines where Chester drivers would ever take a 153? I take it it's not just a question of "153s are used on Crewe-Shrewsbury so drivers are used to them, and the drivers learn 153s so they can do Crewe-Shrewsbury", but I'm fairly sure they're never used in North Wales.

They used to do Conwy Valley at one time but were replaced with a 150. As far as I know the furthest North they go is usually Crewe, apart from the occasional Sunday service to Manchester usually paired up with a 150.

I guess it is useful for Chester crews to be trained on them incase they do end up covering for a 150 on one of the North Wales services.
 

Jez

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As I mentioned in another thread, there have been issues with keeping Chester drivers competent on 153s - when the Crewe-Shewsbury local went over to 150 operation, it meant that Chester drivers only had weekend work on 153s. Given the size of the link in question, it was something of an issue.

That said, I'm not sure that particular change has been made official yet - it's still often a 150 and still shows as a 150 on traincrew dockets.

thanks for the explanation and also in the other thread. Makes sense now.

I wondered if it was an official change that the HOW/Crewe Local diagram was a 153s, as there are only 8 of them if some still do Ebbw Vale plus one on Cardiff Bay and City Line and 1 booked into Canton, there wouldn't be enough to cover everything.
 

PHILIPE

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thanks for the explanation and also in the other thread. Makes sense now.

I wondered if it was an official change that the HOW/Crewe Local diagram was a 153s, as there are only 8 of them if some still do Ebbw Vale plus one on Cardiff Bay and City Line and 1 booked into Canton, there wouldn't be enough to cover everything.

City Line 153 Saturdays only while 153 doing Pembroke Dock
 

craigybagel

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Are there any other lines where Chester drivers would ever take a 153? I take it it's not just a question of "153s are used on Crewe-Shrewsbury so drivers are used to them, and the drivers learn 153s so they can do Crewe-Shrewsbury", but I'm fairly sure they're never used in North Wales.

They used to do Conwy Valley at one time but were replaced with a 150. As far as I know the furthest North they go is usually Crewe, apart from the occasional Sunday service to Manchester usually paired up with a 150.

I guess it is useful for Chester crews to be trained on them incase they do end up covering for a 150 on one of the North Wales services.

The only other booked work Chester drivers have on them is the Sunday only Shrewsbury-Wolverhampton shuttle, of which they work a few services. It would probably be difficult to send them anywhere else in the north even in an emergency - it's only 1 out of the 2 links at Chester who sign them and neither driver nor guards from the two depots down the coast sign them, so if they ended up on a Cardiff-Holyhead service for example there's a very good chance at least one of the booked driver and guard combination couldn't work them.

Weirdly enough though, when the Harrington hump was installed at Abergele, they put up a 153 stop board.....
 

Dai Corner

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Not surprised, considering the anti-Welsh attitude of the so-called lords and master in Westminster.

Anti Yorkshire, East Midlands and Cumbria too it seems

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...and-windermere-electrification-cancelled.html

UK: The government confirmed on July 19 that it had cancelled the planned 25 kV 50 Hz electrification of the Midland Main Line between Kettering, Nottingham and Sheffield, the Cardiff – Swansea route and the Oxenholme – Windermere branch.

‘Rapid delivery of passenger benefits, minimising disruption and engineering work should always be our priority, and as technology changes we must we must reconsider our approach to modernising the railways’, said Secretary of State for Transport Chris Grayling in a written statement to the House of Commons. ‘We will only electrify lines where it provides a genuine benefit to passengers which cannot be achieved through other technologies.’

Hitachi is supplying bi-mode trainsets for Great Western services under the Department for Transport’s Intercity Express Programme, while the operator of the next East Midlands franchise will be required to introduce bi-mode trainsets from 2022. DfT said the use of electro-diesel trainsets instead of electrification would mean passengers would ‘benefit sooner’, because ‘disruptive’ work to install ‘intrusive wires and masts’ would ‘no longer be needed’.

‘We have listened to concerns about electrification gantries spoiling protected landscapes’, Grayling said when confirming the cancellation of plans to electrify the Windermere branch in the Lake District, adding that Northern would begin work to trial an ‘alternative-fuelled’ train on the route by 2021. Grayling mentioned the ongoing development of battery and hydrogen power in his statement, but Northern said it had only just begun to explore possible options following the cancellation of the electrification, and so any decision on the technology to be used was still some way off.

From May 2018 Northern plans to operate services to Windermere using Class 769 Flex electro-diesel units to be formed by fitting diesel powerpacks to Class 319 EMUs. New CAF DMUs would then be introduced to the route from December 2019.

Responding to the cancellation of the electrification projects, Network Rail Chief Executive Mark Carne said ‘the advance of train technology and hybrid bi-mode trains enables us to deliver significant passenger benefits without the need to electrify every mile of railway on a particular route’, but added that ‘electrification still has its place where it can be shown to deliver passenger benefits.’

The Welsh government said it had repeatedly called for electrification to Swansea. ‘Only this week, the Economy Secretary urged the UK government to deliver on their commitment to electrify trains from Cardiff to Swansea or give the Welsh government the powers and funding to do so’, said a spokesman. ‘The UK government has so far refused to devolve funding for rail infrastructure, as was recommended by the Commission on Devolution in Wales, so it is its duty to invest in Wales.’
 

daikilo

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Ah, so now the simple single line OHLE is the reason to continue with diesel to Windermere until something better can be found. Maybe the argument will also apply to the Cardiff valleys, unless they aren't so picturesque (How green is my valley...). Not sure if I want to cry or bring-up.
 

pemma

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Windermere was expected to be 195s at the Dec 2019 timetable change as the final batch of 331s won't be delivered until 2020 and Windermere wires weren't expected by the end of 2019 anyway.
 

Gareth Marston

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Yet more delay are we suprised!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-40671902

. The UK Government should pick up the bill after causing a month-long delay to the search for a new train operator, Wales' economy secretary has said.
Ken Skates said the Welsh Government could lose £3.5m due to a change in the Wales and Borders franchise timetable.
 
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gareth950

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Are we surprised - no! The Tory UK govt is now focussed solely on one thing - leading us into a disastarous Brexit to cripple us for decades. Whilst this is underway, all of the resources of day to day government running, e.g. getting on with simple matters such as devolving to Wales the bloody powers that it needs to award this franchise, are being drained away with it.

This is the most incompetent UK government ever - period.

We are the laughing stock of the world (along with the US), and the current bunch of Brexiteer idiots running the UK govt couldn't organise a **** up in a brewery.
 

PHILIPE

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Are we surprised - no! The Tory UK govt is now focussed solely on one thing - leading us into a disastarous Brexit to cripple us for decades. Whilst this is underway, all of the resources of day to day government running, e.g. getting on with simple matters such as devolving to Wales the bloody powers that it needs to award this franchise, are being drained away with it.

This is the most incompetent UK government ever - period.

We are the laughing stock of the world (along with the US), and the current bunch of Brexiteer idiots running the UK govt couldn't organise a **** up in a brewery.

There were more Brexit "idiots" than remoaners who do nothing but spread doom and gloom
 

gareth950

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The sheer scale of the incompetency and delaying tactics of the current UK govt and DfT towards the current and future Welsh franchise is detailed in the Welsh Assembly Economy and Infrastructure committee report, released a few weeks ago, here: http://www.assembly.wales/laid documents/cr-ld11093/cr-ld11093-e.pdf

Why on earth the DfT can't just get on and devolve the powers over the W&B franchise to Welsh Govt, that were first promised in 2014, is beyond me. Trying to embarass the current Labour run Welsh Govt perhaps, as they know full well the general public don't understand devolution.
 

kieron

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Thanks for the information, Jez and craigybagel.

The latest announcement could be nothing to do with Brexit (except maybe in a "good day to bury bad news" sense), but could rather just be a sign that the Westminster government isn't quite as keen on rail infrastructure spending now.

I couldn't quite work out from the article if Chris Grayling doesn't know that the line between Swansea and Cardiff is used by anyone other than GWR, though, or if he knows but doesn't care.
 

Bletchleyite

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There were more Brexit "idiots" than remoaners who do nothing but spread doom and gloom

Given that Switzerland is (a) not in the EU and (b) has a fully electrified railway system near enough (ISTR there being only one diesel line, but I forget where it is), I fail to see what the relevance of Brexit is, whatever your view on the matter.
 

Rhydgaled

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I couldn't quite work out from the article if Chris Grayling doesn't know that the line between Swansea and Cardiff is used by anyone other than GWR, though, or if he knows but doesn't care.
Bridgend-Swansea electrification isn't much use to the Wales & Borders franchise without wires to Bristol Temple Meads and along the Filton Bank stretch anyway. The Swanline service could go electric, but an electric Swansea-Bristol service would have to wait. Until Bristol gets its electrification therefore I think it makes sense for Wales to concentrate on getting the ValleyLines wired up. Yesterday's announment on Swansea was a big blow only because it was a cancelation not a delay, but perhaps the biggest blow was the Midland Main Line cancelation. That is a total unmitigated disaster which must be reversed urgently.

With the ValleyLines, Bristol and Swansea all electrified however, there would be more trains per hour running on electricity between Bridgend and Cardiff than there will be in the Severn tunnel. The Severn tunnel is three electric trains per hour (two Londons and the Swansea-Bristol), Cardiff-Bridgend could be four or five (Swansea-PAD, Swanline (perhaps a '769 running through to Cheltenham Spa)), Swansea-Bristol and Maesteg-Cardiff/Ebbw Vale, the latter maybe twice an hour).
 

PHILIPE

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Given that Switzerland is (a) not in the EU and (b) has a fully electrified railway system near enough (ISTR there being only one diesel line, but I forget where it is), I fail to see what the relevance of Brexit is, whatever your view on the matter.

I was only replying to somebody else who brought Brexit into the discussion if you look back.
 

Rhydgaled

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I fail to see what the relevance of Brexit is, whatever your view on the matter.
Absolutely none as far as I can see; at this point my own opinion is that leaving the EU could go well, very badly or anything in between, but it doesn't seem relevant to this discussion. If the government were expecting a big loss in tax revenues (or high inflation) as a result of leaving the EU, why aren't we seeing similar cuts to the road building programme and HS2, for example? That suggests to me that the loss of electrification schemes has nothing to do with leaving the EU and everything to do with the government not being committed to creating an energy effecient transport system fit for the 21st century (or at least, not committed enough to put up with the current skills shortage that appears to be a large part of the problem with the current electrification work).
 

gareth950

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My point re: Brexit was in reply to Gareth Marston's post of the delay in the Welsh Govt being awarded the powers to just finalise and release the ITT.

Whilst central govt and the civil service is being overwhelmed by the Brexit process, which remember no-one in govt was prepared for or expecting, all the other normal, seemingly straightforward functions of central govt, such as devolving the rail powers that were promised to Wales over 3 years ago but still haven't arrived, is being lost in the confusion and chaos in central govt right now.

I suspect there is also game playing going on from the Tories to make life as difficult as possible for the Welsh Labour govt, who also hate the fact they have failed to make the inroads they were expecting in Wales in recent years.

Whether you believe that of course depends on where you stand politically, so I agree we shouldn't get into that here, however, I do fail to see how you can disagree with the fact that the lack of powers over the railways in Wales has now become highly political with a stand off between Cardiff Bay and Westminster, esp since the Cardiff - Swansea announcement. I suspect if Chris Grayling had been transport secretary in 2014 no such promise of Cardiff Bay being given the powers to award this new franchise would have been made.

So I was giving my opinion on why Wales STILL doesn't have the rail franchise awarding powers devolved that it should have by now. (Tinged by anger at the rail electrification announcements yesterday as well)
 

PHILIPE

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My point re: Brexit was in reply to Gareth Marston's post of the delay in the Welsh Govt being awarded the powers to just finalise and release the ITT.

Whilst central govt and the civil service is being overwhelmed by the Brexit process, which remember no-one in govt was prepared for or expecting, all the other normal, seemingly straightforward functions of central govt, such as devolving the rail powers that were promised to Wales over 3 years ago but still haven't arrived, is being lost in the confusion and chaos in central govt right now.

I suspect there is also game playing going on from the Tories to make life as difficult as possible for the Welsh Labour govt, who also hate the fact they have failed to make the inroads they were expecting in Wales in recent years.

Whether you believe that of course depends on where you stand politically, so I agree we shouldn't get into that here, however, I do fail to see how you can disagree with the fact that the lack of powers over the railways in Wales has now become highly political with a stand off between Cardiff Bay and Westminster, esp since the Cardiff - Swansea announcement. I suspect if Chris Grayling had been transport secretary in 2014 no such promise of Cardiff Bay being given the powers to award this new franchise would have been made.

So I was giving my opinion on why Wales STILL doesn't have the rail franchise awarding powers devolved that it should have by now. (Tinged by anger at the rail electrification announcements yesterday as well)

Agreed. Perhaps it is just a political game because I suspect Westminster might want to make things a little awkward for Wales or is the Welsh Government mistaken re the handover.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Agreed. Perhaps it is just a political game because I suspect Westminster might want to make things a little awkward for Wales or is the Welsh Government mistaken re the handover.

There might well be significant differences between Westminster and Cardiff on the nature of the franchise.
The WG seems to want a lot more than simply controlling the ITT and mounting a normal competition (eg more like a Merseyrail contract than one like ATW, and maybe local train and station ownership).
It also affects services in parts of England.
 

Bwlch y Groes

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I've been following this thread with interest from afar for some time. I live up in York at the moment but I'm a Rhondda boy. I've been catching trains to Cardiff since I was a toddler.

I wanted to ask the forum - is light rail off the agenda now? I'm very concerned about it. You see, in the valleys we have been absolutely robbed of some of our vital public transport infrastructure in recent years. As the roads have improved, bus services have been cut. In my valley, which lost its passenger service in the 60s, we lost the Rail Link bus service to the next valley due to austerity cuts a few years ago - instead they encouraged us to take a normal service bus to Porth, which isn't the same. A year or two later, we also lost the express bus service to Cardiff - we now have to change at Pontypridd if we want to get to Cardiff within 2 hours. It's that bad - where once you had a choice of a bus to link to a train, or an express bus, now you have to make your own way to the capital, 20 miles away. It's absurd, and I don't think anyone outside the valleys really understands, especially in light of the huge deprivation here.

Now we're facing the possibility (unbeknownst to most of the people who live here) of losing our trains altogether. The WAG have been promoting this idea of trams as a cleaner, cheaper alternative - if it went ahead, no doubt they would say it's huge investment, rather than avoiding doing a proper job, and make it easier to expand. The disruption would be enormous because every station would have to be altered and the wires would still have to be put up. We'd probably lose the freight too, even if there's not much these days. It feels like to me that why would you bother going to the length of electrifying in a half-arsed way? It feels so short-sighted. It's not what people want.

And yet when I'm reading the industry magazines, it's basically being heavily implied that this is what the WAG wants to do. I can't help but feel Ken Skates is totally out of his depth - it seems like he's just parroting some Lyle Lanley-esque scheme that he's been sold, an easy political win which 10-20 years down the line will end up a total disaster. I don't trust Welsh Labour on this at all - contrasted with the Westminster party, they've become very pro-business and Cardiff-centric. I'm supportive of the concept of the Metro, but not if it's just a glorified cover for more valleys austerity so that Cardiff city centre and the Bay can get some shiny trams to show it's "competing" with Manchester, Birmingham, Edinburgh et al. It would make far more sense if it was basically the same as the West Yorkshire Metro which seems to work quite well - but that means retaining heavy rail. No one would suggest sticking trams or tram-trains out to Castleford, Knottingley, Ilkley or Harrogate. Why is that South Wales seems to be bottom of the pile, below even the North in the pecking order?

So what's the score? Is this an inevitability now? My gut feeling is that it is - I can't help think that we're going to get shafted again, and that within a few years we're going to be longing for Pacers again.
 
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Gareth Marston

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I've been following this thread with interest from afar for some time. I live up in York at the moment but I'm a Rhondda boy. I've been catching trains to Cardiff since I was a toddler.

I wanted to ask the forum - is light rail off the agenda now? I'm very concerned about it. You see, in the valleys we have been absolutely robbed of some of our vital public transport infrastructure in recent years. As the roads have improved, bus services have been cut. In my valley, which lost its passenger service in the 60s, we lost the Rail Link bus service to the next valley due to austerity cuts a few years ago - instead they encouraged us to take a normal service bus to Porth, which isn't the same. A year or two later, we also lost the express bus service to Cardiff - we now have to change at Pontypridd if we want to get to Cardiff within 2 hours. It's that bad - where once you had a choice of a bus to link to a train, or an express bus, now you have to make your own way to the capital, 20 miles away. It's absurd, and I don't think anyone outside the valleys really understands, especially in light of the huge deprivation here.

Now we're facing the possibility (unbeknownst to most of the people who live here) of losing our trains altogether. The WAG have been promoting this idea of trams as a cleaner, cheaper alternative - if it went ahead, no doubt they would say it's huge investment, rather than avoiding doing a proper job, and make it easier to expand. The disruption would be enormous because every station would have to be altered and the wires would still have to be put up. We'd probably lose the freight too, even if there's not much these days. It feels like to me that why would you bother going to the length of electrifying in a half-arsed way? It feels so short-sighted. It's not what people want.

And yet when I'm reading the industry magazines, it's basically being heavily implied that this is what the WAG wants to do. I can't help but feel Ken Skates is totally out of his depth - it seems like he's just parroting some Lyle Lanley-esque scheme that he's been sold, an easy political win which 10-20 years down the line will end up a total disaster. I don't trust Welsh Labour on this at all - contrasted with the Westminster party, they've become very pro-business and Cardiff-centric. I'm supportive of the concept of the Metro, but not if it's just a glorified cover for more valleys austerity so that Cardiff city centre and the Bay can get some shiny trams to show it's "competing" with Manchester, Birmingham, Edinburgh et al. It would make far more sense if it was basically the same as the West Yorkshire Metro which seems to work quite well - but that means retaining heavy rail. No one would suggest sticking trams or tram-trains out to Castleford, Knottingley, Ilkley or Harrogate. Why is that South Wales seems to be bottom of the pile, below even the North in the pecking order?

So what's the score? Is this an inevitability now? My gut feeling is that it is - I can't help think that we're going to get shafted again, and that within a few years we're going to be longing for Pacers again.

Officially at least the process is that there are 4 bidders and competitive tendering will determine the winner who will build the South Wales Metro based on the best bid/best value bid following the criteria laid out - which of course is all very secret squirrel stuff. So are you saying that the Welsh Government has specified Light Rail whilst keeping it all secret from the pubic?
 

Llanigraham

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I've been following this thread with interest from afar for some time. I live up in York at the moment but I'm a Rhondda boy. I've been catching trains to Cardiff since I was a toddler.

I wanted to ask the forum - is light rail off the agenda now? I'm very concerned about it. You see, in the valleys we have been absolutely robbed of some of our vital public transport infrastructure in recent years. As the roads have improved, bus services have been cut. In my valley, which lost its passenger service in the 60s, we lost the Rail Link bus service to the next valley due to austerity cuts a few years ago - instead they encouraged us to take a normal service bus to Porth, which isn't the same. A year or two later, we also lost the express bus service to Cardiff - we now have to change at Pontypridd if we want to get to Cardiff within 2 hours. It's that bad - where once you had a choice of a bus to link to a train, or an express bus, now you have to make your own way to the capital, 20 miles away. It's absurd, and I don't think anyone outside the valleys really understands, especially in light of the huge deprivation here.

Now we're facing the possibility (unbeknownst to most of the people who live here) of losing our trains altogether. The WAG have been promoting this idea of trams as a cleaner, cheaper alternative - if it went ahead, no doubt they would say it's huge investment, rather than avoiding doing a proper job, and make it easier to expand. The disruption would be enormous because every station would have to be altered and the wires would still have to be put up. We'd probably lose the freight too, even if there's not much these days. It feels like to me that why would you bother going to the length of electrifying in a half-arsed way? It feels so short-sighted. It's not what people want.

And yet when I'm reading the industry magazines, it's basically being heavily implied that this is what the WAG wants to do. I can't help but feel Ken Skates is totally out of his depth - it seems like he's just parroting some Lyle Lanley-esque scheme that he's been sold, an easy political win which 10-20 years down the line will end up a total disaster. I don't trust Welsh Labour on this at all - contrasted with the Westminster party, they've become very pro-business and Cardiff-centric. I'm supportive of the concept of the Metro, but not if it's just a glorified cover for more valleys austerity so that Cardiff city centre and the Bay can get some shiny trams to show it's "competing" with Manchester, Birmingham, Edinburgh et al. It would make far more sense if it was basically the same as the West Yorkshire Metro which seems to work quite well - but that means retaining heavy rail. No one would suggest sticking trams or tram-trains out to Castleford, Knottingley, Ilkley or Harrogate. Why is that South Wales seems to be bottom of the pile, below even the North in the pecking order?

So what's the score? Is this an inevitability now? My gut feeling is that it is - I can't help think that we're going to get shafted again, and that within a few years we're going to be longing for Pacers again.

Where do you get that idea from?
part of the proposals are to wire the whole Valleys network, not close it.

And I think light rail has been ruled out due to future possible freight use.
 

Olaf

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The sheer scale of the incompetency and delaying tactics of the current UK govt and DfT towards the current and future Welsh franchise is detailed in the Welsh Assembly Economy and Infrastructure committee report, released a few weeks ago, here: http://www.assembly.wales/laid documents/cr-ld11093/cr-ld11093-e.pdf

Why on earth the DfT can't just get on and devolve the powers over the W&B franchise to Welsh Govt, that were first promised in 2014, is beyond me. Trying to embarass the current Labour run Welsh Govt perhaps, as they know full well the general public don't understand devolution.

The reason is that the Treasury is not convinced that the Welsh Government can manage it's own finances and will incur excessive costs for Welsh Tax payers.
 
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