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Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

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physics34

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The proposed 2018 timetable is much simplified (and it is amusing that it wouldn't meet a number of Gibb's aspirations, nor his plans to reduce stock movements by stabling trains at Crowborough in future).

Aside from bashing that report, though, I think we should look to the positives. The 2018 timetable for the Uckfield Line has much better consistency in terms of stopping patterns, clockface times and so on, and although the first train of the day from Uckfield is slightly later, everything else should result in better service for the stations south of Oxted.

Work does need to be done to ensure capacity for Sanderstead and Upper Warlingham is retained in the evenings, and there are also some well-used stops at Norwood Junction which might be best re-inserted (even though they account for a lot of the overcrowding, faredodging and antisocial behaviour problems on late-night Uckfield services).

Given the problems with making sure connecting trains are held, and given the huge variations in how many people use them, the current Oxted Shuttles in the evenings (all stations to Uckfield, starting from Oxted Platform 3) are probably best discarded if it somehow turns out that there's space for more trains leaving London Bridge. I thought that was one of the major problems with running more evening peak trains from LBG towards the Oxted area, and I can't see how adding more services will help the smooth running of Thameslink from New Cross Gate to Windmill Bridge, but we shall have to see what happens.

Sanderstead and Upper Warlingham both have Purley Oaks and Whyteleafe nearby as im sure you know and im assuming from the new timetable the fast Cat and Tatt spliiters from LBG will still run.

Stopping the Uckfields at Sanderstead and Upper Warlingham currently does seem over-generous to me although the amount of users are high.

Norwood Junction should still have the Cat and Tatt splitters and the TL to Horsham from LBG.

On the otherside of the coin maybe ALL uckfields should stop at NWD in both directions for train crew purposes. Many NWD drivers have to pass to and from NWD to LBG to start/finish their duties. WOuld be good if drivers were relieved here. Up Uckfields could use platform 1 to avoid holding up the up fast.
 
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physics34

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When 377s are used on long standing DOO routes, such as the Brighton line or metro services, does the driver use the on board cameras or the platform monitors/mirrors?

on board cameras. The 377 cab isnt designed for the driver to easily see platform monitors and mirrors for a start.
 

Wookiee

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The Beeb are reporting that ASLEF have also agreed to withdraw the overtime ban, pending the talks with Grayling et al - is this definitely true? RTT shows that the normal timetable has been loaded for next week, but i don't know how much to read into that.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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The Beeb are reporting that ASLEF have also agreed to withdraw the overtime ban, pending the talks with Grayling et al - is this definitely true? RTT shows that the normal timetable has been loaded for next week, but i don't know how much to read into that.

NRE has been reporting this for a couple of days. http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/today.aspx
Southern and Gatwick Express have been advised by both ASLEF and the RMT Unions that industrial action has been suspended.*
The amended Southern and Gatwick Express timetable will remain in place until Friday 21 July as it is not possible to re-deploy staff at this short notice. Extra services will run where resources allow
 

trentside

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RMT statement on meeting with Chris Grayling on 21/07/17;

General Secretary Mick Cash said;

"RMT has met with Chris Grayling this afternoon and we have had a full and frank exchange and views and the Secretary of State has now had an opportunity to get a clear understanding of RMT's position on Southern Rail and the broader issue of how the extension of DOO impacts nationally on other rail franchises.

"RMT will supply Mr Grayling with a cop‎y of the unions clear and viable proposals for resolving the Southern dispute and the Secretary of State has agreed to meet us again‎.

"We will also be seeking further meetings with Southern and the other train companies

as we seek to move forwards in the interests of safe and accessible rail services for all."

"Finally the Secretary of state agreed that we would also have further discussions regarding our concerns in respect of of the loss of skilled rail jobs as a result of the scaling back of Network Rails renewals programme."

Ends

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-on-talks-with-chris-grayling-today/
 

HowardGWR

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I have wondered what the SoS has up his sleeve. I would think that a commitment to greatly improved TV equipment would put the RMT (and ASLEF) on the back foot.
 

IKB

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Sanderstead and Upper Warlingham both have Purley Oaks and Whyteleafe nearby as im sure you know and im assuming from the new timetable the fast Cat and Tatt spliiters from LBG will still run.

Stopping the Uckfields at Sanderstead and Upper Warlingham currently does seem over-generous to me although the amount of users are high.

Norwood Junction should still have the Cat and Tatt splitters and the TL to Horsham from LBG.

On the otherside of the coin maybe ALL uckfields should stop at NWD in both directions for train crew purposes. Many NWD drivers have to pass to and from NWD to LBG to start/finish their duties. WOuld be good if drivers were relieved here. Up Uckfields could use platform 1 to avoid holding up the up fast.

If you have a butchers at the proposed 2018 timetable (link below) the Caterham and Tattenham splitters seem to miss out Norwood Jnc:

https://www.transformingrail.com/copy-of-download-southern-timetables

As an aside, the Purley splits/joins take place all day. Curiously, arrivals at Tattenham (M-F) are 12 and 42 past the hour. Yet departures in the up direction from Tattenham are 09 and 39. A turnaround just short of half an hour? Am I misreading it?
 
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otomous

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I have wondered what the SoS has up his sleeve. I would think that a commitment to greatly improved TV equipment would put the RMT (and ASLEF) on the back foot.

"On the back foot"? I think you'll find this is what ASLEF members have been waiting for for years. This dispute has brought long term issues to the surface.
 

physics34

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If you have a butchers at the proposed 2018 timetable (link below) the Caterham and Tattenham splitters seem to miss out Norwood Jnc:

https://www.transformingrail.com/copy-of-download-southern-timetables

As an aside, the Purley splits/joins take place all day. Curiously, arrivals at Tattenham (M-F) are 12 and 42 past the hour. Yet departures in the up direction from Tattenham are 09 and 39. A turnaround just short of half an hour? Am I misreading it?

i did hear there were gonna be better turn around times, but 27 mins is lovely!!
 

HowardGWR

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"On the back foot"? I think you'll find this is what ASLEF members have been waiting for for years. This dispute has brought long term issues to the surface.

Oh great to hear, thanks. I did have of course more the RMT in mind, as ASLEF members are not threatened with possibly losing jobs, as the RMT feel they are.

I just feel that there are already so many DOO services, that the RMT would have been better going along with a new customer-concentrated role, rather than resisting technology. Of course that technology should be top notch and this was what I was getting at when i tried to consider the matter from the SoS standpoint.

If RMT insisted on getting that improved technology, they would better gain the support of customers.
 

Carlisle

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Oh great to hear, thanks. I did have of course more the RMT in mind, as ASLEF members are not threatened with possibly losing jobs, as the RMT feel they are.

I just feel that there are already so many DOO services, that the RMT would have been better going along with a new customer-concentrated role, rather than resisting technology. Of course that technology should be top notch and this was what I was getting at when i tried to consider the matter from the SoS standpoint.

If RMT insisted on getting that improved technology, they would better gain the support of customers.
I wouldn't have thought RMT would give two hoots about cctv/ door closing technologies as that'll be ASLEFs problem, they'll be bothered about route knowledge, second safety critical person on every train for duration of franchise etc etc :D
 
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infobleep

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* He's changed his mind ?
But if it's not his place to get involved, as they are a private company, how can he change his mind? It's not his place. Or maybe it was that he believed it was not his place when in fact there was nothing stopping it being his place.

If that is the case then changing his mind, or u turn as the opposition parties or papers might put it, is a possible answer I missed.
 

infobleep

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Chris Grayling changed his mind in January, as widely reported at the time, for example in The Guardian at
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...il-rmt-agrees-to-direct-talks-with-government.



The direct talks proposed in January did not take place as at the time the unions declined to suspend their strikes to enable those talks to take place, unlike with their response to the fresh offer of direct talks with Chris Grayling.
I'd love to know why they are happy to call off strikes now but weren't then? What has changed in order for them to do so now?

I'd forgotten that Grayling had offered to meet them back then.

I wonder if him meeting them will resolve the issue or simply escalate it further as he had feared might happen?

It was a rather unfortunate qoute when he said it was not his place to get involved. Had he said I don't want to get involved in case it politicised the dispute, would that have worked or would he have been criticised?

Perhaps it's a case if dammed if you do and dammed if you don't.

Despite that I still don't agree with DOO and OBS, regardless of the effort Mr Grayling is or isn't making.
 

infobleep

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Now that there is no overtime ban, there is a limited service in the West London Line due to lack of drivers.

When the drivers were having their overtine ban, I don't remember GTR referring to lack of drivers.

Surely in a fuller statement about overtime ban they could have mentioned lack of drivers too. It's not the only reason for the cancellations but it is a big part of it.

Still as they same themselves. A full weekday timetable is in operation, please check before you travel for the*latest information.

Limited Service between Clapham Junction and Milton Keynes Central

We are not able to operate our full service between Clapham Junction and Milton Keynes Central due to a shortage of train drivers.

Your tickets will be accepted on the following routes:
London Midland between Milton Keynes Central and Euston
London Underground between London Euston and London Victoria.
London Overground between Clapham Junction and Watford Junction.

ASLEF and RMT strike and overtime ban suspended

We have been advised by both ASLEF and the RMT that the industrial action has been suspended. A full weekday timetable is in operation, please check before you travel for the*latest information.*
 
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455driver

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Just because ASLEF have lifted the overtime ban doesnt mean that drivers have to work their rest days and I get the feeling that a lot of drivers are sticking two fingers up to Southern and not working them!

Maybe drivers arent quite as hard up as winker Wilkinson stated they are in his infamous Croydon speech.

If my Company had shown as much contempt for its staff as Southern have I dont think I would be working any overtime or rest days for them!
 

gavin

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Shortage of train staff again today

Due to a shortage of train crew between Clapham Junction and Milton Keynes Central fewer trains are able to run.

Impact:
Train services running to and from these stations may be cancelled. Disruption is expected until 15:00 27/07.

Customer Advice:
Southern are not able to operate a full service between Clapham Junction and Milton Keynes Central today due to a shortage of train crew. This will also be affecting Gatwick Express and Inner London area services

Your tickets will be accepted on the following routes at no additional cost:

London Midland: between Milton Keynes Central and Euston

London Underground: between London Euston and London Victoria

London Overground: between Clapham Junction and Watford Junction

South West Trains between London Waterloo and Vauxhall / Clapham Junction

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/today.aspx
 

Carlisle

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Good to see that the continuing lack of an overtime ban is not impacting on the ability to not run a full timetable.
School summer holidays and all that usual kinda thing maybe? (Possibly quite a few firms struggling for similar reasons )
 
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infobleep

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School summer holidays and all that usual kinda thing maybe? (Possibly quite a few firms struggling for similar reasons )
I'm sure that is the case. I think it's just worth highlighting because some people are quick to highlight overtime bans leading to cancelled services.
 

otomous

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School summer holidays and all that usual kinda thing maybe? (Possibly quite a few firms struggling for similar reasons )

Most leave is rostered (i.e. Known a year in advance to those running the service) and the remainder is restricted to only a handful of drivers per day (i.e. reasonably predictable). The railway is not most firms. Work cannot be slower, delayed, or covered by fewer people. You either have enough traincrew or you don't.
 

infobleep

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Most leave is rostered (i.e. Known a year in advance to those running the service) and the remainder is restricted to only a handful of drivers per day (i.e. reasonably predictable). The railway is not most firms. Work cannot be slower, delayed, or covered by fewer people. You either have enough traincrew or you don't.
Is Chris Grayling having discussions with GTR over their lack of staffing issues?
 

Carlisle

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Most leave is rostered (i.e. Known a year in advance to those running the service) and the remainder is restricted to only a handful of drivers per day (i.e. reasonably predictable). The railway is not most firms. Work cannot be slower, delayed, or covered by fewer people. You either have enough traincrew or you don't.
Yes I agree with all of that but was also thinking perhaps due to commitments during school summer holidays etc understandably there might be less volunteers for RDW than say a cold November day.
 
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theironroad

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Yes I agree with all of that but was also thinking perhaps due to commitments during school summer holidays etc understandably there might be less volunteers for RDW than say a cold November day.

Absolutely. Good weather, more outdoor events and opportunities does lead to less people being willing to do overtime and has done for years. I'd imagine parents who need to find and pay for child care in the holidays will also be less inclined to do so as the after tax payment for the rest day will probably be almost wiped out by the cost of child care.
 

theblackwatch

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Nobody should feel compelled to work overtime - I certainly don't in my (non railway) job on the occasions I'm offered it. I often have other plans, and I 'work to live' rather than 'live to work'! It seems certain TOCs expect it of staff though.
 

XDM

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Nobody should feel compelled to work overtime - I certainly don't in my (non railway) job on the occasions I'm offered it. I often have other plans, and I 'work to live' rather than 'live to work'! It seems certain TOCs expect it of staff though.

When I was on railway overtime I regarded overtime as "live to work,so we could live well in the future". In other words use it for better holidays,a better car.

On the main issue, I am told ASLEF will get their way & trains on the expanded Southern DOO routes will not run with passengers beyond the old DOO routes if they do not have a second member of staff aboard in any circumstance. Not agreed yet, but backed by Grayling.

Many regard this as illogical & a backward step as we must increase traincrew productivity through safe DOO to justify the very high cost of drivers, about £3 for every mile they drive in the south.
 

infobleep

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Nobody should feel compelled to work overtime - I certainly don't in my (non railway) job on the occasions I'm offered it. I often have other plans, and I 'work to live' rather than 'live to work'! It seems certain TOCs expect it of staff though.
I agree. Incidentally not sure I've seen lines have reduced service on South West Trains due to staff shortages. Maybe it's happened when an illness as come round a depot but I don't remember it. GTR on the other hand.... I know why it's occurring of course.
 

johnw

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It was two years ago and the Brighton mainline was flooded. I was sat on a Southern Railway service stuck in Victoria for over an hour. The Guard made one grunt that Gatwick passengers could use the Gatwick Express. Not one apology or any other travel information was given.

Very different to the East Midlands Trains train manager who had advised us on delays, apologised etc. an hour earlier on the MML.

There are no need for guards on Southern Railway.
 

Moonshot

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Nobody should feel compelled to work overtime - I certainly don't in my (non railway) job on the occasions I'm offered it. I often have other plans, and I 'work to live' rather than 'live to work'! It seems certain TOCs expect it of staff though.

As traincrew myself, there is no feeling of being compelled to work overtime, but the very nature of flexible working makes it attractive - there will always be staff who want to earn more and those who would prefer the time off.
 
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