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Old 18th February 2011, 18:05   #16
table38
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Originally Posted by yorkie View Post
There is no requirement to do so, and furthermore it would be seen as 'queue jumping', if a passenger was about to be served at their seat and someone else walked up to the guard and asked to be served first to avoid queues at Manchester, the guard may well refuse and the passengers who are next in line to be served may well be unhappy if such a request was granted.
I hadn't considered that, but additionally in my experience, other reasons for not "seeking out the guard" are:

1. guard busy dealing with a sick passenger
2. guard in the other set of a 2x185 formation
3. train completely wedged

Also does your average punter know where to look? I suspect the driver wouldn't be too chuffed™ if you started knocking on the door looking for the guard.
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Old 18th February 2011, 19:43   #17
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Also does your average punter know where to look? I suspect the driver wouldn't be too chuffed™ if you started knocking on the door looking for the guard.
Perhaps it will take something like that to happen, before the train companies DO write it in black and white in the national conditions that "if one started the journey at a station without an open booking office then one can pay for one's journey, without penalty/surcharge and with all tickets/discounts that would be available at any subsequent point on the journey" ( as the opening post suggests ! )

I believe that First-Trans-Pennine use the wording of "passing by an open booking office at the start of one's journey" so why do the other TOC's not follow suit ?
It would appear, yet again that someone at ATOC / Daft is not doing their job properly !
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Old 18th February 2011, 22:34   #18
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I'm not saying that the OP was required to seek out the guard but it would have helped them on their way, as for the queue jumping arguement what tripe! in my area we issue PF's but if someone makes the effort to seek us out we'll sell a ticket.
Yes there may be reasons that the OP didn't seek out the guard but was just a suggestion that may help them in future!
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Old 18th February 2011, 22:46   #19
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Originally Posted by RPI View Post
I'm not saying that the OP was required to seek out the guard but it would have helped them on their way, as for the queue jumping arguement what tripe! in my area we issue PF's but if someone makes the effort to seek us out we'll sell a ticket.
Yes there may be reasons that the OP didn't seek out the guard but was just a suggestion that may help them in future!
That's the priority as far as i'm concerned; seeking out the guard. If you can prove that you have done so (by using a mobile to film yourself doing so) then all the better
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Old 18th February 2011, 23:01   #20
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Originally Posted by furryfeet View Post

I believe that First-Trans-Pennine use the wording of "passing by an open booking office at the start of one's journey" so why do the other TOC's not follow suit ?
It would appear, yet again that someone at ATOC / Daft is not doing their job properly !
The wording on the announcement is:

"First Transpennine Express complies with the National Rail Conditions of carriage, therefore, if you have chosen to walk past an open ticket office today, you will only be able to purchase standard full fare tickets on board this service"
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Old 18th February 2011, 23:14   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwvr45 View Post
The wording on the announcement is:

"First Transpennine Express complies with the National Rail Conditions of carriage, therefore, if you have chosen to walk past an open ticket office today, you will only be able to purchase standard full fare tickets on board this service"
Here lies a personal bugbear; how the heck do I know if a ticket office is open or not? Tonight, I'm checking tickets and find a lad wanting to buy a ticket from Chester-le-St with a Y-P. How can I possibly know if the ticket office is open or closed? He was the only person who joined, so I couldn't check if others had just bought tickets to give me a clue as to the status of the booking office, so short of ringing the station which then wastes valuable ticket-checking time, I'm left with one sensible option - sell him his Y-P ticket and move on to the next person.
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Old 18th February 2011, 23:22   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPI View Post
I'm not saying that the OP was required to seek out the guard but it would have helped them on their way, as for the queue jumping arguement what tripe! in my area we issue PF's but if someone makes the effort to seek us out we'll sell a ticket.
Yes there may be reasons that the OP didn't seek out the guard but was just a suggestion that may help them in future!
I didn't seek out the Guard immediately because I'd have thought it'd be expected the Guard would come round selling tickets as after 1400 every station on that line is unstaffed. I rarely use that station now anyway, I catch the bus either to Oxford Road/Piccadilly or the nearest staffed station.

In hindsight the track record of Guards actually coming round to sell tickets on that line is poor when there are G4S barriers at Piccadilly. I once did the entire line from Crewe and one single ticket check took place after Holmes Chapel, with no further checks.
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Old 18th February 2011, 23:24   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPI View Post
I'm not saying that the OP was required to seek out the guard but it would have helped them on their way, as for the queue jumping arguement what tripe! in my area we issue PF's but if someone makes the effort to seek us out we'll sell a ticket.
Yes there may be reasons that the OP didn't seek out the guard but was just a suggestion that may help them in future!
It's not tripe at all. I made this post in January and have said the same on a similar subject in the past:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
There is no requirement documented that you must seek out the guard if there are no facilities for you to buy.

In addition, see my post here, as on some routes it is also considered rude and jumping the queue to approach the guard and ask to buy a ticket. I was a regular commuter on the Severn Beach line in Bristol (all stations unstaffed except for Bristol Temple Meads) a few years ago, and when people did this then they would always get shouted down by others (including me if I was close enough), and in some cases the guard would inform them that they would be seen in due course as some passengers got on earlier but had not yet been seen.
I would like to hope that you don't mean you PF someone for failing to seek you out if they had no way of buying the ticket before boarding (which is not what we're discussing here), but merely that you would not PF someone if they attempt to seek you out in a case where you could legally get away with PF-ing someone anyway (ie. if they could have bought the ticket before boarding), although I have no difference either way on the last point.
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Old 19th February 2011, 12:17   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferret View Post
Here lies a personal bugbear; how the heck do I know if a ticket office is open or not? Tonight, I'm checking tickets and find a lad wanting to buy a ticket from Chester-le-St with a Y-P. How can I possibly know if the ticket office is open or closed? He was the only person who joined, so I couldn't check if others had just bought tickets to give me a clue as to the status of the booking office, so short of ringing the station which then wastes valuable ticket-checking time, I'm left with one sensible option - sell him his Y-P ticket and move on to the next person.
Some stations still have ticket machines which don't offer the full range of tickets so if the ticket office is closed some people can buy the ticket they require while others can't.

There's been complaints posted on forums before that EMT staff aren't aware that Northern close Widnes ticket office mid-afternoon.

There's also issues when a ticket office should be open but it's closed due to staff shortages or technical failures.
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Old 19th February 2011, 13:10   #25
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In France the on-board purchase rules give better treatment (lower cost) to people who actively seek out the guard as against waiting to be checked.
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Old 19th February 2011, 13:46   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPI View Post
...as for the queue jumping arguement what tripe! in my area we issue PF's ....
I think that says it all.

In other words you are going on about what happens in your area, which is completely, totally and utterly different to the situation on the line in question. The line in question would be totally inappropriate for PFs, the two are worlds apart. After 1400 you have to buy on board on this line. How is that comparable to a PF area?

Helpful? No, I don't think so. So why post it?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Quote:
Originally Posted by strange6 View Post
That's the priority as far as i'm concerned; seeking out the guard. If you can prove that you have done so (by using a mobile to film yourself doing so) then all the better
Assuming you are referring to a PF area, you are asking for leniency/discretion to be shown. In which case I totally agree. However this matter, raised by RPI, to which you are replying to, is muddying the water as it has nothing whatsoever to do with the case in question on this thread, but is worded in such a way that people may think that it does apply. This can cause confusion.

Last edited by yorkie; 19th February 2011 at 13:46. Reason: Double post prevention system
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Old 19th February 2011, 14:53   #27
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Here is the Wikipedia article on G4S: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G4S The key point is that it stands for Group 4 Securicor as in the Group 4 that mishandled prisoner escorts in the 1990s.

Also, if you were to swap the words behind G and S for something rather derogatory, I wouldn't blame you.
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Old 19th February 2011, 15:05   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcollins View Post
....There's been complaints posted on forums before that EMT staff aren't aware that Northern close Widnes ticket office mid-afternoon.

There's also issues when a ticket office should be open but it's closed due to staff shortages or technical failures.
This is one of the problems with the fragmented railway we have. Where a ticket office is closed when it should be open, the retail control for the operating TOC will be aware of it and should distribute the information to the Guards/RPIs on duty (Thameslink were quite good at telling other offices if one was not open, that was six years ago though), however, I doubt this information is ever passed on any further.
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Old 19th February 2011, 15:08   #29
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In fairness, sometimes I receive messages on the Blackberry saying XYZ ticket office is closed, please offer the full range of tickets. Trouble is, there's other times when I don't receive such messages!
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Old 19th February 2011, 15:47   #30
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In Scotrail land you also have the times when the ticket office is open but the staff are doing other things. May only be shut for 30 minutes but I doubt the gaurds would know. Saying that since the TVMs stopped taking cash you are always allowed to buy the full range on board. Now the gaurds have new equipment that doesn't like debit cards with some strange stories in the press about threatening to throw passengers off trains rather than ask then to pay at the destination which is what really happens.

As for G4S terrible train. I had an argument with one about doubling back a Piccadilly rather than changing at Oxford road on a journey between Irlam and Edinburgh. The ticket was valid by both York and Carlisie anyway but the didn't like me going to the costa near platform 13. They would never have known if I wasn't hungry.
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