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Old 11th March 2011, 05:50   #1
connor7777
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Default Electrification after chat moss routes. etc.

If they really went for it they could do.

Liverpool to Manchester via Warrington Central.
Preston to Ormskirk.
Kirkby and Southport to Wigan.
Warrington Bank Quay to Chester and Halton Curve.
Crewe to Chester.
Sandbach to Northwich, then Northwich to WCML via Greenbank Curve.
OR. Sandbach to Northwich and all of the mid Cheshire line. Or convert to Manchester Metro.
Blackpool South.
Wolverhampton to Shrewsbury.
Hereford to Bromsgrove.
Stockport - Sheffield
Stoke - Derby
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Old 11th March 2011, 06:46   #2
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I doubt that the benefits outweigh the costs on any of those routes.

Blackpool South to Preston - Currently the service runs to Colne, so unless you run electric trains from Blackpool South to Preston and diesel trains onward to Colne, there is no operating cost reduction from this.

Warrington Bank Quay/Crewe to Chester - Why, when most of the services go along the North Wales Coast line, would you only wire to Chester?

Wigan to Kirby/Southport - Would you not need to also wire Wigan to Bolton/Salford Crescent? Or have I missed something?

Stockport to Sheffield - What benefit would this bring?

Liverpool to Manchester via Warrington - aside from losing some pacers and sprinters on the stoppers, there is no benefit that I can see.

Mid Cheshire line - If your going to do any of it you might as well do all of it, but would it be of benefit? Or would you just be replacing a couple of units on the local services?
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Old 11th March 2011, 07:29   #3
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Someone told me they were doing the tiny stretch from Wigan NW/WCML to Wigan Wallgate but ive never seen anything to confirm that. Wigan Wallgate to Bolton line is only a couple of miles and probably will have a positive BCR after the lines dones. I wouldnt hold out much hope for Atherton or Southport lines though, probably remain a diesel island for some time to come. Kirkby line Headbolt Lane-Wallgate I could see happening if some form of Merseyrail vertical integration occured, theres also reportedly a positive BCR for reopening to Skem either from Ormskirk or Kirkby approachs.
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Old 11th March 2011, 07:34   #4
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I am a very green person
If you electrify Crewe to Chester, then Chester to Warrington can be a diversion route for the WCML.

It's the same as painting a house, you paint 1 room then you notice others need doing, we electrify Blackpool North, then Blackpool south looks odd, you see what I mean.


Proposing 100% electrified railway on our network by 2030.
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Old 11th March 2011, 08:16   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hairyhandedfool View Post
Warrington Bank Quay/Crewe to Chester - Why, when most of the services go along the North Wales Coast line, would you only wire to Chester?
Most services from Crewe to Chester terminate at Chester (the hourly ATW shuttle and the hourly VT service from Euston), its only a few morning services from Holyhead and a few evening ones to Holyhead which run further. Wiring Crewe - Chester would allow Virgin to get rid of all Voyagers *if* they could sort out a drag for the token Holyhead services.
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Old 11th March 2011, 08:47   #6
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I think that we should all be very pleased that these 4 schemes are going ahead. It is a lot more than many of us were expecting given the state of the national finances and the change of government last May.

Once completed in 2016 it is quite likely that other add-on schemes will be authorised. Once you have the core routes electrified, it becomes far easier to justify add-ons.

The one I would like to see is the big one -- over the top to Leeds. With a little in-fill in Yorkshire, the whole route from Liverpool to Newcastle would be electrified. To me, that's the prize to go for.
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Old 11th March 2011, 08:56   #7
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Okay, I stand corrected on Crewe-Chester trains terminating there, for some reason I thought the Holyhead trains still went to Crewe.

IMO Network Rail would still be crazy to electrify Warrington-Chester just for a diversionary route which is only going to be around 20-30 minutes quicker than Crewe-Manchester-Warrington (BQ) and of no real time difference to Crewe-Manchester-Preston.
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Old 11th March 2011, 09:57   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbtc View Post
Most services from Crewe to Chester terminate at Chester (the hourly ATW shuttle and the hourly VT service from Euston), its only a few morning services from Holyhead and a few evening ones to Holyhead which run further. Wiring Crewe - Chester would allow Virgin to get rid of all Voyagers *if* they could sort out a drag for the token Holyhead services.
Extending the wires to from Crewe to Chester would be a good idea, allowing Virgin to stop running diesel Voyagers all the way from Euston to Crewe, and start running pendolinos to Chester.

The service onwards to Holyhead, though, is far from a "token" service. It serves growing markets at Flint, Rhyl, Llandudno in addition to the student market at Bangor University and holiday traffic, and the existing Virgin services along the NW Coast are usually well-patronised.

Dragging pendos, though, is not the answer. I think this route would be an ideal candidate for the bi-mode Voyager, if the pantograph cars ever see the light of day. Electric from Euston to Chester, diesel along the coast.

And if the bi-mode Voyager never materialises, perhaps something on the lines of the bi-mode IEPs proposed for Paddington-Swansea could be used?
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Old 11th March 2011, 10:07   #9
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I'm surprised the North Wales coast line in its entirety hasn't come out more positive.

Crewe - Chester would enable electric working formany services. And there is a shuttle between the two, which could also go EMU - maybe extend the LM Trent Valley stopper to Chester and back to replace the shuttle (timetable permitting?) Would open Chester and North Wales up to some new markets.

That's all Crewe-Chester would release. But with North Wales and Warrington Chester, you could run the Llandudnos with EMUs as well as Crewe-Holyheads and all London trains. And with Halton too, it'd be a new era for North Wales.

The Warrington Central Liv-Manc line would only make sense if combined with wires across to Leeds (and York). But EMU-ing the stoppers would be good, and help with pathing in terms of acceleration. Maybe there could be more capacity - there is already some random skip-stopping with Birchwood and Widnes which helps even things out.
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Old 11th March 2011, 10:11   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cle View Post
I'm surprised the North Wales coast line in its entirety hasn't come out more positive.

Crewe - Chester would enable electric working formany services. And there is a shuttle between the two, which could also go EMU - maybe extend the LM Trent Valley stopper to Chester and back to replace the shuttle (timetable permitting?) Would open Chester and North Wales up to some new markets.

That's all Crewe-Chester would release. But with North Wales and Warrington Chester, you could run the Llandudnos with EMUs as well as Crewe-Holyheads and all London trains. And with Halton too, it'd be a new era for North Wales.

Agreed. Yes. Bring it on!

Wires from Crewe to Chester and Bi-mode from there was the best I dared hope for in the present financial climate.
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Old 11th March 2011, 13:29   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilipW View Post
I think that we should all be very pleased that these 4 schemes are going ahead. It is a lot more than many of us were expecting given the state of the national finances and the change of government last May
I'm certainly no Tory, but I was very pleasantly surprised to see these schemes continuing, I honestly didn't expect them to commit to much more than build Crossrail - the fact that Blackpool/ Chat Moss etc are getting electrified is great news

Quote:
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The one I would like to see is the big one -- over the top to Leeds. With a little in-fill in Yorkshire, the whole route from Liverpool to Newcastle would be electrified. To me, that's the prize to go for.
Its still just one train an hour (plus a stopper from Huddersfield to Leeds, usually Pacer run). To do Transpennine properly you have to decide whether to electrify to Middlesbrough/ Scarborough/ Hull, to cut their direct services to Manchester or to run DMUs under the wires. I think the electrification from Manchester to York would be a good thing, but only if the majority of services on the line move to EMU. This may mean cutting some of the direct services from Middlesbrough/Scarborough to Manchester since you'd need to convert a lot of the Transpennine services to EMU to justify wiring it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Quote:
Originally Posted by cle View Post
I'm surprised the North Wales coast line in its entirety hasn't come out more positive
The problem is that the electrification suggested on this thread would only really "save" one train an hour (Manchester - Llandudno). The London - Holyhead service is only a few a day, and there's no talk of wiring the ATW line through Wrexham/ Shrewsbury - Wolverhampton/Cardiff. It'd only be worth electrifying the North Wales coast line if you were going to switch most services to EMU. To do this would mean terminating the Birmingham/Cardiff - Wrexham - Holyhead services at Chester and running an EMU from the WCML/ Crewe instead. However, that won't happen for political reasons.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Quote:
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The service onwards to Holyhead, though, is far from a "token" service. It serves growing markets at Flint, Rhyl, Llandudno in addition to the student market at Bangor University and holiday traffic, and the existing Virgin services along the NW Coast are usually well-patronised
Its only three (?) from Holyhead to London on the morning and a similar number of return journeys in the evening. With Ryanair etc taking the bulk of the London - Ireland market there are fewer people still using the train to get the Holyhead ferry, which was one of the justifications of this service in the past.

I agree with the need to serve Bangor etc better, which is why I've argued for a Liverpool service on other threads.

Last edited by tbtc; 11th March 2011 at 13:29. Reason: Double post prevention system
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Old 11th March 2011, 14:14   #12
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I think there are 8 London - Holyhead trains per day (M/F), mostly in the peaks. There are also some Bangor terminators, clearly not serving the Irish ferries. It's not an insignificant amount for a secondary trunk line.
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Old 11th March 2011, 16:03   #13
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Surely one line that should be electrifed is Ore to Ashford Intl, its only 30miles or so but is a large gap in SE electrification.
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Old 11th March 2011, 17:18   #14
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Lines that ought to be electrified but will never be done:

Wokingham Junction to Aldershot South Junction
Shalford Junction to Reigate

These would remove the diesel island that currently exists between Reading and Redhill via Guildford which in turn would mean a move to EMU operation.

Uckfield to Hurst Green Junction

This again would remove the existing diesel island that currently exists between Reading and Hurst Green which in turn would mean a move to EMU operation.

Ore to Ashford International

This once done would mean a end to diesels on the Southern except for the South West Trains services to Exeter and Bristol via Salisbury and the token First Great Western services between Brighton and Great Malvern.

Ipswich to Cambridge and Ely with Ely to Peterborough and Norwich

Would free up a awful lot of DMUs to be used elsewhere and apart from being EMU operated would mean a lot more freight being electrically hauled between Ipswich and Doncaster via Peterborough and Grantham

Only thing is though you're still going to have the Birmingham to Stansted and Norwich to Liverpool services as DMUs until these areas are electrified.
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Old 11th March 2011, 19:41   #15
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I am sorry but Stoke - Derby would be a waste.

Currently it has 1tph, and as far as I know it wouldn't paticularly help freight either.


Also Hereford to Bromsgrove!?

So we are going to leave Bromsgrove - Barnt Green then!?



The only one I would like to see is Crewe - Chester.
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