Fife Circle

What route does the 1708 Fife take after Cardenden? Trying to total up a few miles here

Edinburgh [EDB]
PRNCSTG
Haymarket [HYM]
HAYMRWJ
South Gyle [SGL]
Dalmeny [DAM] Pass
Inverkeithing [INK]
Rosyth [ROS]
Dunfermline Town [DFE]
Dunfermline Queen Margaret [DFL]
Cowdenbeath [COW]
Lochgelly [LCG]
Cardenden [CDD]
Glenrothes with Thornton [GLT]
THRNTSJ Pass
Kirkcaldy [KDY]
Kinghorn [KGH]
Burntisland [BTS]
Aberdour [AUR]
Dalgety Bay [DAG]
Inverkeithing [INK]
Dalmeny [DAM]
DLMYUPL Pass
Dalmeny [DAM]
South Gyle [SGL]
HAYMRWJ Pass
Haymarket [HYM]
PRNCSTG Pass
Edinburgh [EDB]

That's 62mi 22ch for the entire journey

If you're travelling on this from Waverley or Haymarket, get a return to Rosyth (perfectly valid). Only thing to remember is the evening peak restriction, so you'll need a SDR.

142094 said:

If you're travelling on this from Waverley or Haymarket, get a return to Rosyth (perfectly valid). Only thing to remember is the evening peak restriction, so you'll need a SDR.

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I wouldn't recommend purchasing an Edinburgh - Rosyth return with the intention of making the complete journey around the circle. It's prohibited in the routeing guide easements.

600006
Customers from Edinburgh travelling to Rosyth, Dunfermline Town,
Dunfermline QM, Cowdenbeath and Lochgelly may not travel via Kirkcaldy.
This easement applies in both directions.


600014
Customers travelling from Haymarket to Rosyth, Dunfermline Town,
Dunfermline QM, Cowdenbeath and Lochgelly may not travel via Kirkcaldy.
This easement applies in both directions.

Username said:

I wouldn't recommend purchasing an Edinburgh - Rosyth return with the intention of making the complete journey around the circle. It's prohibited in the routeing guide easements.

600006
Customers from Edinburgh travelling to Rosyth, Dunfermline Town,
Dunfermline QM, Cowdenbeath and Lochgelly may not travel via Kirkcaldy.
This easement applies in both directions.


600014
Customers travelling from Haymarket to Rosyth, Dunfermline Town,
Dunfermline QM, Cowdenbeath and Lochgelly may not travel via Kirkcaldy.
This easement applies in both directions.

Click to expand...

As I pointed out when these negative Easements were added, they are worded so badly as to be almost wholly ineffective.

The National Routeing Guide states on page 1:

National Routeing Guide - Instructions

Most customers wish to make journeys by through trains or by the shortest route. In both cases they will be travelling on a permitted route, provided the correct fare has been paid to reflect any routeing indicated by the fares manual. You only need refer to the Routeing Guide when a customer is not using an advertised through train or the shortest route.

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/instructions.pdf

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Therefore a passenger travelling with a Standard Anytime Day Return Edinburgh - Rosyth may use the 1708 Edinburgh - Edinburgh for the outward leg of their journey because that is a through train from Edinburgh to Rosyth.

They may then stay on the same train and use the 1708 Edinburgh - Edinburgh for the return leg of their journey because that is also a through train from Rosyth to Edinburgh.

The final sentence quoted above gives the passenger permission not to bother reading the other 1500-odd pages of the Guide, so they never encounter Easements 600006 or 600014 if travelling on a through train.

John @ home said:

As I pointed out when these negative Easements were added, they are worded so badly as to be almost wholly ineffective.

The National Routeing Guide states on page 1:


Therefore a passenger travelling with a Standard Anytime Day Return Edinburgh - Rosyth may use the 1708 Edinburgh - Edinburgh for the outward leg of their journey because that is a through train from Edinburgh to Rosyth.

They may then stay on the same train and use the 1708 Edinburgh - Edinburgh for the return leg of their journey because that is also a through train from Rosyth to Edinburgh.

The final sentence quoted above gives the passenger permission not to bother reading the other 1500-odd pages of the Guide, so they never encounter Easements 600006 or 600014 if travelling on a through train.

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Easements are designed to contradict certain routeing guide instructions as they were originally set out.
For the most part these easements are permissive, i.e. they allow more than the original instructions would permit. I would imagine that in the case of a permissive easement you would expect the company to look beyond the original restriction and honour the easement, rather than just say "No, look, here on page 4 it says such and such, that's yer lot"

It just so happens that the easements I quoted are negative or restrictive. However they fulfill exactly the same function - they contradict certain routing guide instructions as they were originally set out.

Just because you don't like them does not mean they do not exist and just because a passenger is unaware of a restriction, does not mean it does not apply.

As for them being badly worded? They are as clearly worded as any positive easement.

Apparently this is just another example of the "I don't like it, it shouldn't apply" mentally that is so prevalent.

Username said:

Easements are designed to contradict certain routeing guide instructions as they were originally set out.

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Yes indeed, but if you are travelling on the shortest route or by a direct train you do not need to consult the routeing guide. Travel by the shortest route or on a direct train is permitted by the National Rail Conditions of Carriage and the routeing guide is irrelevant in these cases.

From Paragraph 13 in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage:

13. The route you are entitled to take
(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:
(i) a through train;
(ii) trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled
passenger services; or
(iii) trains which take the routes shown in the National Routeing Guide
(details as to how you can obtain this information will be available
when you buy your ticket).

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Clause 13.(a)(i) allows travel between Rosyth and Edinburgh on a through train unconditionally. There is no need to even consult the routeing guide, thus the (meaningless) easements don't come into play at all.

Username said:

this is just another example of the "I don't like it, it shouldn't apply" mentally that is so prevalent.

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No. The rules clearly give permission to travel via Kirkcaldy when using an Edinburgh - Rosytth route Any Permitted ticket on a through train.

Indigo2 said:

the (meaningless) easements don't come into play at all.

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The Easements are not quite meaningless. They prevent travel via Kirkcaldy when using an Edinburgh - Rosytth ticket and using neither a through train nor the shortest route.

To add my 2p worth - I've used the Waverley - Rosyth return on that exact train and did not have a problem.

I'm a guard and regularly work this train. As it is a peak service you will require a ANYTIME ticket if you board at Edinburgh or Haymarket but NOT at any other station en-route. e.g. South Gyle.

To simplify the rules re the circular service. Tickets are valid via both routes however you cannot break your journey at a station where a higher fare applies. Simples.

I allways suggest getting your ticket to Dalgety Bay if the first stop after Inverkeithing for your train is Rosyth or vice versa if you intend to to the "Full Circle". In practice it does not really matter.

If you have got time alighting at a few stations is worthwhile. My favourites include Dunfermline Lower & Aberdour. One day I'll finish the "Fife Circle Pub Crawl" - a pint 'n' nip at a pub near every station!!

If travelling to an intermediate station I do not advise a Rosyth ticket.

However if travelling all the way around the loop, it is valid in my opinion under the National Rail Condition of Carriage, under "The route you can take" clearly one of the options is to take a direct train. You can consult the Routeing Guide if you wish but if you are on a direct train there is no compulsion to do so!

Username said:

Just because you don't like them does not mean they do not exist and just because a passenger is unaware of a restriction, does not mean it does not apply.

As for them being badly worded? They are as clearly worded as any positive easement.

Apparently this is just another example of the "I don't like it, it shouldn't apply" mentally that is so prevalent.

Click to expand...

It's not prevalent on this forum (if you think it is please PM me with a link to posts where this does occur and I will investigate further) but if you read previous topics you will see that the vast majority of experts here agree that direct trains are valid irrespective of easements in the Routeing Guide. This is a sensible, intelligent and logical conclusion that experienced members have made and I fully concur with it. Put it this way, even hairyhandedfool and I are fully agreed on that issue!

I do not advise leaving "early" on such a ticket though as it could be argued that if you leave a train, then you are no longer on a direct train to your destination. This is, however, open to interpretation and I am unsure how a court would rule on this issue. I suspect ATOC may clarify this at some point in the future. But the question of finishing short on such a ticket is not relevant to someone wanting to go the entire way around the loop or someone wanting to go the long way round to the destination and alights at the destination shown on their ticket.

I was with someone who used a ticket the long way round (on PRIV), the guard gave an "I know what you're up to " look but did not complain about the ticket. (and before anyone asks, no he did not alight early and was simply using the ticket to go the long way round).