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Old 24th February 2012, 21:57   #16
hairyhandedfool
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Originally Posted by exile View Post
An interesting consequence of the "direct train" rule is that any journey on a circular route is valid, so long as you don't get off anywhere but your destination.
Certainly that is one interpretation.
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Old 29th March 2012, 12:06   #17
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That would make the easement banning travel from london via two or more of Slade Green, Crayford, and Barnehurst (in practice stopping people going the "long way" around the Dartford loop services) meaningless though.
I have no clue about easements. Could someone explain if this particular negative easement means I could not travel eg from London to Slade Green, via Barnehurst of Crayford?

My ticket is a London to Gravesend annual season and I use it on all three routes regularly. Should I also not be doing this?

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Old 29th March 2012, 12:29   #18
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My reading of it is that you can go to one of the end stations but no further back up a different line to the one you came down. There are a number of services in the peaks which terminate at one of the three stations after calling at another and these would be a bit pointless if you couldn't use them.
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Old 29th March 2012, 13:10   #19
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I agree with MikeWh. You may travel from London via A to B, but not from London via A and B to C, where A and B are two of Slade Green, Barnehurst, and Crayford, and C is anywhere else on the lines from London to Dartford via Greenwich, Bexleyheath, and Sidcup.

This does not apply with a season, which allows you unlimited travel in either direction on the route covered. So if you want to travel from London Cannon Street to Woolwich Dockyard the long way around via Sidcup, knock yourself out.

Confused yet?
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Old 29th March 2012, 15:15   #20
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Originally Posted by island View Post
I agree with MikeWh. You may travel from London via A to B, but not from London via A and B to C, where A and B are two of Slade Green, Barnehurst, and Crayford, and C is anywhere else on the lines from London to Dartford via Greenwich, Bexleyheath, and Sidcup.

This does not apply with a season, which allows you unlimited travel in either direction on the route covered. So if you want to travel from London Cannon Street to Woolwich Dockyard the long way around via Sidcup, knock yourself out.

Confused yet?
Actually, no, and this makes perfect sense. This is what I assumed. The one thing I'm concerned with is that I have a Gravesend ticket. I understand I can use all three routes, but taking a journey such as London to Slade Green via Barnehurst (or Crayford) takes me onto track that I would never touch with London to Gravesend routes...
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Old 29th March 2012, 17:41   #21
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Originally Posted by PavlosA View Post
Actually, no, and this makes perfect sense. This is what I assumed. The one thing I'm concerned with is that I have a Gravesend ticket. I understand I can use all three routes, but taking a journey such as London to Slade Green via Barnehurst (or Crayford) takes me onto track that I would never touch with London to Gravesend routes...
A season ticket is valid for all intermediate journeys between stations at which it is valid. Even eccentric ones. The validity on a Tulse Hill to London Terminals season is pretty astounding!

Put another way, no SET RPI is going to bat an eyelid!
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Old 29th March 2012, 19:47   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by island View Post
A season ticket is valid for all intermediate journeys between stations at which it is valid.
For clarity, only journeys on Permitted Routes between the stations on the ticket, not between the intermediate stations (sorry if I'm adding to the confusion, only sometimes there is a difference!).

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Old 29th March 2012, 20:18   #23
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Fair point. I was going to say it probably wouldn't make a difference, but that would just be a challenge to people to find one!
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Old 29th March 2012, 22:20   #24
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Old 29th March 2012, 23:14   #25
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Old 30th March 2012, 08:12   #26
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Expect a negative easement, or series thereof to appear soon. Some of us actually make use of these kind of things on a daily basis without the need to shout the details from the rooftops! Unlike the terms of the NRCoC or law, we all know that easements can be introduced and maps changed very easily to prevent this sort of thing, which is much more likely if some knowitall wise cracker decides accelerate the process by pointlessly informing the masses.
Aww, diddums. Nothing I like less than folk being able to save money by dint of some secret knowledge they have. It sticks in my craw that I too sometimes think twice about sharing fares loopholes. Why? Not because I worry about the loophole being closed, but because of responses like the one above.

Can't have the masses making savings can we? That would be unfair on the little club of people passing round the gen privately. I really do hate the, "I know something you don't", attitude.
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Old 30th March 2012, 08:34   #27
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Tbf, it's not specific to railways, it is a philosophy that has made the world the place it is today.

I don't blame people for not shouting about it, some people have taken a fair amount of time trying to find these loopholes and they don't particularly want them closed, but I do agree about the type of response mentioned, there is no need for that really.
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Old 30th March 2012, 15:58   #28
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Aww, diddums. Nothing I like less than folk being able to save money by dint of some secret knowledge they have. It sticks in my craw that I too sometimes think twice about sharing fares loopholes. Why? Not because I worry about the loophole being closed, but because of responses like the one above.

Can't have the masses making savings can we? That would be unfair on the little club of people passing round the gen privately. I really do hate the, "I know something you don't", attitude.
The point is, the masses don't make savings. As soon as it becomes common knowledge, the loophole is closed. So by your way of thinking, it's better that no-one saves rather than a few who have done their homework?

I live in South London and have a long term season ticket, I take full advantage of the validity which goes completely undetected. I don't see the point in frivolously listing workarounds in public, as it only takes one person with a vested interest to get them shut down. I could quite easily publish some loopholes which allow major savings on long distance travel. I'm unlikely to ever use them, but I won't share them in public because it ruins it for others who've done their homework. Likewise with travel around London.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Quote:
Originally Posted by hairyhandedfool View Post
Tbf, it's not specific to railways, it is a philosophy that has made the world the place it is today.

I don't blame people for not shouting about it, some people have taken a fair amount of time trying to find these loopholes and they don't particularly want them closed, but I do agree about the type of response mentioned, there is no need for that really.
To be honest, I don't think there's any need to publicise the kind of information that is likely to lead to everyone who already knows it losing out.

I personally think those who work to be rewarded with benefits and wish to keep it quiet are far less selfish than those with the line of thought that "everyone must know that I can't keep a lid on the details of what I've found" or the "if I can't benefit, then nobody can" attitude that have become apparent in this and other threads.

I'm pretty sure that likeminded people discuss some of the best loopholes, but they keep it hush. There's a reason why. I'm not going to throw a tantrum as seen a couple of posts above because people don't want to share/spoonfeed. Instead, I do my own research specific to the journeys I have a need to make. When I find things, I don't have a compulsion to disclose the details in public. I find things, make use of them and share it with people who I can trust.


Some loopholes are executed more discretely than others and some do have a shelf life before they're they're inevitably closed. Hey, I am (or was) being watched by a certain TOC who've been known to email me soon after I've gotten off a train, just to tell me they know what I did and have taken steps to close the loop although to be fair, that particular one was already well in the process of being closed before they even knew about it . I've now gone under the radar by paying less outlandish, yet cheaper still fares. But why accelerate the process of getting loopholes closed by putting the details out in public?

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Old 30th March 2012, 22:58   #29
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As I said, I understand the wanting to keep it quiet if you have worked it out, but there are nicer ways to inform people that "shouting it from the rooftops" is not appreciated. It is rather amusing that by quoting it you have left it there for all to see.
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Old 30th March 2012, 23:22   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by island View Post
A season ticket is valid for all intermediate journeys between stations at which it is valid. Even eccentric ones. The validity on a Tulse Hill to London Terminals season is pretty astounding!

Put another way, no SET RPI is going to bat an eyelid!
Quote:
Originally Posted by LexyBoy View Post
For clarity, only journeys on Permitted Routes between the stations on the ticket, not between the intermediate stations (sorry if I'm adding to the confusion, only sometimes there is a difference!).
I agree with lexy rather than island here. Too late at night to find an example, but the sort of thing might be a direct train, with a break point that is only valid because a direct train happens to call there.
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