Would this be classed as stopping short ?

Scooby · 10th August 2012, 21:18

Tonight I've made a booking for an Advanced Ticket from Kendal to 'Manchester Stations' as I'm not sure if Deansgate, Oxford Road or PIcadilly would best fit my circumstances (a friend is collecting me in Manchester), however, when the confirmation email has come through, the journey destination is Manchester Picadilly ( When I checked the fares, all 3 stations were identically priced).

Does anyone know if I'd get in bother for getting off at Deansgate, rather than staying on to Picadilly ?

p.s. when the ticket comes, it may say Manchester Stations and I've wasted the time of you good people

YorkshireRider · 10th August 2012, 21:26

Is Deansgate classed as a Manchester stn? Might be worth buying a Man Picc to Deansgate ticket from Kendal just in case

craigwilson · 10th August 2012, 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by YorkshireRider

Is Deansgate classed as a Manchester stn? Might be worth buying a Man Picc to Deansgate ticket from Kendal just in case

Yes, Deansgate, Oxford Road, and Piccadilly are the three "Manchester Stations".

Whenever I've bought Advances to Manchester, the ticket generally always says "Manchester Stns", but the reservation - the bit that tells you which train you're booked on - is to a named station. I'd imagine this is the case most of the time.

If your booked itinerary is to Manchester Piccadilly then you must alight there. If I understand your route you're coming into Manchester on a Transpenine Express service via Deansgate? In which case, yes it would be stopping short, which is not allowed. So you'll need the extra ticket and to go via Manchester Picc.

MCR247 · 10th August 2012, 22:01

Stopping short for me is always something that is grey area for me as to whether it could be enforceable, but I really can't imagine this being enforcable. You have bought & paid for a ticket to Manchester Stations, and you are getting off at what is (officially, not just a station in Manchester) a Manchester station

snail · 10th August 2012, 22:09

Not that it's relevant here but Victoria is also in the Manchester Stns group.

If you have an advance I presume it's with TPE so your booked train may not stop at Deansgate. Whatever your reservation says, it's very unlikely anyone will ask for it once you have left the train.

Nym · 10th August 2012, 22:26

If you're coming from Kendal the chances are it will not stop at Deansgate unless you're changing at Preston as well...

Everything (most services) from TPE off Lancaster do not call at Deansgate, except early morning and late evening services interworking with Blackpool North services.

Isn't a very long walk from Oxford Road though.

Pen Mill · 10th August 2012, 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nym

If you're coming from Kendal the chances are it will not stop at Deansgate unless you're changing at Preston as well...

Everything (most services) from TPE off Lancaster do not call at Deansgate, except early morning and late evening services interworking with Blackpool North services.

Isn't a very long walk from Oxford Road though.

This is all very ironic to me , ie : being penalised for stopping short and yet freeing up a seat that has already earned revenue. I'm sure the rules and regulators know what they're saying , I'm not.

Surely it's in every TOC's interest if every advance passenger gets off early ?
juist me then ?

Nym · 10th August 2012, 23:02

Not really on this route, these services pick up very very few passengers at Oxford Road and Piccadilly.

hairyhandedfool · 11th August 2012, 06:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pen Mill

This is all very ironic to me , ie : being penalised for stopping short and yet freeing up a seat that has already earned revenue. I'm sure the rules and regulators know what they're saying , I'm not.

Surely it's in every TOC's interest if every advance passenger gets off early ?
juist me then ?

The notion of someone getting a seat as you got off early is inconsequential as they could not have sold an Advance fare for it and any passenger using the service would have a ticket and be unaware of your travel plans. In addition, by getting off early you are liable to pay an extra fare.

If the reservation is to Oxford Road, I believe there is an easement to travel back to Deansgate and provided it is a non-reservable service is used it would be legitimate.

34D · 11th August 2012, 07:48

Will the ticket be 'tpe only' or 'tpe and connexions'?

If the latter, and assuming you don't double back, then (in my opinion) going picc-deansgate would be okay. If tpe only then no validity at all on northern.

Bakerbloke · 11th August 2012, 07:57

I think for any Manchester Stns ticket you are perfectly entitled to stop at any of them regardless of your booked destination. You would only be stopping short if it were before any of these - eg Salford Crescent.

Pen Mill · 11th August 2012, 08:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by hairyhandedfool

In addition, by getting off early you are liable to pay an extra fare.

Yes, I understand that but there is absolutely no logic in that rule as the TOC does not suffer any loss .

The first rule of any financial claim is that loss must have been suffered , the company has been paid to the furthest point so there is no loss....
... gets down off high horse

DaveNewcastle · 11th August 2012, 09:13

There is logic in the rule!

Firstly, the era of fares being priced by distance is in the distant past. Now, fares are priced by a combination of inherited conditions (including 'regulated fares'), revenue generation and market forces. Competition between Operators has driven some prices down, and, at the same time, and in order to maintain the prices within a 'fares basket' within the permitted annual inflationary margin, causes other fares to rise.
Now I will agree that the range of fares currently available appear irrational, but I hope you'll agree that generating revenue and responding to market forces are logical pressures on the dynamics of fare pricing.

The interesting one is the Advance Fare. Operators can introduce these at as low a price as they wish, for a variety of purposes: to attract passengers onto otherwise lightly loaded services, to provide attractive headline prices for promotional purposes, to attract passenger to travel by rail rather than other modes. These are, as a consequence, going to be cheaper than other ticket types and are very specific contracts for specified point to point journeys on specific trains. Its only 'logical' if these special Contracts to fill specific seats on certain legs of a longer journey are tied to just that: from point to point on the specified train only.

Now, turning to stopping short on an Advance in Manchester, I refer the OP to my answer to an identical question raised the day previously, here : Fares advice Grimsby - Newcastle.
My post is number 6. If the passenger also bought a ticket from the end of the Contracted journey back to the point where (s)he wanted to alight early (Picadilly to Deansgate) then although there is no 'rule' that permits stopping short with such an additional ticket, I believe that any challenge at Deansgate would not, and could not, be pursued.

Pen Mill · 11th August 2012, 09:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveNewcastle

There is logic in the rule!

Firstly, the era of fares being priced by distance is in the distant past. Now, fares are priced by a combination of inherited conditions (including 'regulated fares'), revenue generation and market forces. Competition between Operators has driven some prices down, and, at the same time, and in order to maintain the prices within a 'fares basket' within the permitted annual inflationary margin, causes other fares to rise.
Now I will agree that the range of fares currently available appear irrational, but I hope you'll agree that generating revenue and responding to market forces are logical pressures on the dynamics of fare pricing.

The interesting one is the Advance Fare. Operators can introduce these at as low a price as they wish, for a variety of purposes: to attract passengers onto otherwise lightly loaded services, to provide attractive headline prices for promotional purposes, to attract passenger to travel by rail rather than other modes. These are, as a consequence, going to be cheaper than other ticket types and are very specific contracts for specified point to point journeys on specific trains. Its only 'logical' if these special Contracts to fill specific seats on certain legs of a longer journey are tied to just that: from point to point on the specified train only.

We won't agree on this issue because there is no financial loss , there is an empty seat paid for, for however short a journey so the TOC could actually benefit if only from an image point of view.
I hope I don't get into a situation where I have to challenge this t&c

island · 11th August 2012, 09:58

There is a financial loss, because the fare to the nearer point might have been higher, and if the customer had purchased that fare, the TOC would have made more money!

10th August 2012, 21:18	#1
Scooby Member Join Date: 20 Jul 2011 Posts: 114	Would this be classed as stopping short ? Tonight I've made a booking for an Advanced Ticket from Kendal to 'Manchester Stations' as I'm not sure if Deansgate, Oxford Road or PIcadilly would best fit my circumstances (a friend is collecting me in Manchester), however, when the confirmation email has come through, the journey destination is Manchester Picadilly ( When I checked the fares, all 3 stations were identically priced). Does anyone know if I'd get in bother for getting off at Deansgate, rather than staying on to Picadilly ? p.s. when the ticket comes, it may say Manchester Stations and I've wasted the time of you good people

10th August 2012, 22:26	#6
Nym MIET AMIMechE MIEEE(Soon) Established Member Join Date: 2 Mar 2007 Location: In a tunnel, not in London... Posts: 6,365	If you're coming from Kendal the chances are it will not stop at Deansgate unless you're changing at Preston as well... Everything (most services) from TPE off Lancaster do not call at Deansgate, except early morning and late evening services interworking with Blackpool North services. Isn't a very long walk from Oxford Road though. __________________ The views expressed above do not necessarily reflect those of my current, future or former employers, the IET, IMechE or InstMC.

10th August 2012, 23:02	#8
Nym MIET AMIMechE MIEEE(Soon) Established Member Join Date: 2 Mar 2007 Location: In a tunnel, not in London... Posts: 6,365	Not really on this route, these services pick up very very few passengers at Oxford Road and Piccadilly. __________________ The views expressed above do not necessarily reflect those of my current, future or former employers, the IET, IMechE or InstMC.

10th August 2012, 21:26	#2
YorkshireRider Member Join Date: 21 Oct 2010 Posts: 902	Is Deansgate classed as a Manchester stn? Might be worth buying a Man Picc to Deansgate ticket from Kendal just in case

10th August 2012, 22:01	#4
MCR247 170397 Established Member Join Date: 7 Nov 2008 Location: Nottingham Posts: 7,561	Stopping short for me is always something that is grey area for me as to whether it could be enforceable, but I really can't imagine this being enforcable. You have bought & paid for a ticket to Manchester Stations, and you are getting off at what is (officially, not just a station in Manchester) a Manchester station

10th August 2012, 22:09	#5
snail Slow Train Established Member Join Date: 16 Jun 2011 Location: t'North Posts: 1,321	Not that it's relevant here but Victoria is also in the Manchester Stns group. If you have an advance I presume it's with TPE so your booked train may not stop at Deansgate. Whatever your reservation says, it's very unlikely anyone will ask for it once you have left the train.

11th August 2012, 07:48	#10
34D Established Member Join Date: 9 Feb 2011 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 3,140	Will the ticket be 'tpe only' or 'tpe and connexions'? If the latter, and assuming you don't double back, then (in my opinion) going picc-deansgate would be okay. If tpe only then no validity at all on northern.

11th August 2012, 07:57	#11
Bakerbloke Member Join Date: 18 Oct 2010 Location: Derbyshire Posts: 103	I think for any Manchester Stns ticket you are perfectly entitled to stop at any of them regardless of your booked destination. You would only be stopping short if it were before any of these - eg Salford Crescent.

11th August 2012, 09:13	#13
DaveNewcastle admiring the bridges Fares Advisor Join Date: 21 Dec 2007 Location: Newcastle (unless I'm out) Posts: 4,698	There is logic in the rule! Firstly, the era of fares being priced by distance is in the distant past. Now, fares are priced by a combination of inherited conditions (including 'regulated fares'), revenue generation and market forces. Competition between Operators has driven some prices down, and, at the same time, and in order to maintain the prices within a 'fares basket' within the permitted annual inflationary margin, causes other fares to rise. Now I will agree that the range of fares currently available appear irrational, but I hope you'll agree that generating revenue and responding to market forces are logical pressures on the dynamics of fare pricing. The interesting one is the Advance Fare. Operators can introduce these at as low a price as they wish, for a variety of purposes: to attract passengers onto otherwise lightly loaded services, to provide attractive headline prices for promotional purposes, to attract passenger to travel by rail rather than other modes. These are, as a consequence, going to be cheaper than other ticket types and are very specific contracts for specified point to point journeys on specific trains. Its only 'logical' if these special Contracts to fill specific seats on certain legs of a longer journey are tied to just that: from point to point on the specified train only. Now, turning to stopping short on an Advance in Manchester, I refer the OP to my answer to an identical question raised the day previously, here : Fares advice Grimsby - Newcastle. My post is number 6. If the passenger also bought a ticket from the end of the Contracted journey back to the point where (s)he wanted to alight early (Picadilly to Deansgate) then although there is no 'rule' that permits stopping short with such an additional ticket, I believe that any challenge at Deansgate would not, and could not, be pursued.

11th August 2012, 09:58	#15
island I'm from M390 Established Member Join Date: 30 Dec 2010 Location: SE12 Posts: 5,597	There is a financial loss, because the fare to the nearer point might have been higher, and if the customer had purchased that fare, the TOC would have made more money!