RailUK Forums
RailUK Forums > UK Railway Forums > Infrastructure & Stations

Click to buy your tickets through RailUK Booking engine

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 11th January 2017, 00:35   #16
Tomnick
Established Member
 
Join Date: 10 Jun 2005
Posts: 4,397
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_jrt View Post
I think this was the maximum extent in 1935 - http://maps.nls.uk/view/103657523#zo...3735&layers=BT

(One loop and one bay)
The 'loop' on the Down side - it's impossible to tell from the map, but I suspect that there might not have been a facing connection from the Down line, only trailing access from the Up via a single slip connection. That'd certainly be more typical for the era. I could be wrong, of course! Presumably the same general reluctance to provide facing connections explains why the bay/siding (not sure which) on the Up side didn't go right through.
Tomnick is offline  
Registered users do not see these banners - join today!
Old 11th January 2017, 08:39   #17
bramling
Established Member
 
Join Date: 5 Mar 2012
Location: South East
Posts: 2,546
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ianno87 View Post
The new Class 717s to be introduced from 2018 will certainly provide a bit more on-train space, as well as the extra 2tph that GTR proposed in their 2018timetable consultation.
Depends which way you look at it. Yes they will provide some extra standing space, however the flip side of the coin is that some people who would get seats on 2x313 probably won't. Some trains are already standing only inwards from stations as far out as Cuffley, which is a long time to be standing. As you say, 2tph extra (if it comes to fruition) will ease things a but, but still a drop in the ocean - I suspect there's quite a bit of peak suppressed demand on this route with the current dire peak overcrowding.

It's basically a Tube-type route in terms of demand at the London end, with outer-suburban commuting on top of that sharing the same trains, but without Tube frequencies to match. Plus a reasonable expectation of getting a (comfortable) seat from the stations at the outer end.

Last edited by bramling; 11th January 2017 at 08:42.
bramling is online now  
Old 11th January 2017, 10:12   #18
jon0844
Doesn't buy Carnets
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: 1 Feb 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 20,916
Default

I think I'd rather stand in relative comfort than be squashed in an aisle on a 313. Or even a middle seat.

I know I speak for myself only, but the extra space should make nicer journeys for more people than now.

The problem obviously is when the 717s get crush loaded in 20 years time and there's no scope to increase service frequencies further.

If Moorgate is an obvious bottleneck, I wonder if in the future a solution will be found by turning some trains back at Finsbury Park, which will still provide a good link to London. Passing loops could even enable some faster services, which would also relieve pressure on other stations.

Considering TfL will possibly take control (looking less likely at the moment) then I guess there's no chance that you might get some services intentionally diverted into King's Cross, but that's another option perhaps? Maybe still run by GTR and using ordinary 700s?

I don't know about freight, and there seems to be capacity reserved for diversions, but it still seems that the Hertford Loop is relatively empty and underused normally.
jon0844 is offline  
Old 11th January 2017, 10:21   #19
bramling
Established Member
 
Join Date: 5 Mar 2012
Location: South East
Posts: 2,546
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonmorris0844 View Post
I think I'd rather stand in relative comfort than be squashed in an aisle on a 313. Or even a middle seat.

I know I speak for myself only, but the extra space should make nicer journeys for more people than now.

The problem obviously is when the 717s get crush loaded in 20 years time and there's no scope to increase service frequencies further.

If Moorgate is an obvious bottleneck, I wonder if in the future a solution will be found by turning some trains back at Finsbury Park, which will still provide a good link to London. Passing loops could even enable some faster services, which would also relieve pressure on other stations.

Considering TfL will possibly take control (looking less likely at the moment) then I guess there's no chance that you might get some services intentionally diverted into King's Cross, but that's another option perhaps? Maybe still run by GTR and using ordinary 700s?

I don't know about freight, and there seems to be capacity reserved for diversions, but it still seems that the Hertford Loop is relatively empty and underused normally.
I can't see reversing at Finsbury Park would help. Operationally it's quite easy as it can be done via Canonbury, but where do the people go? The Piccadilly Line can't take any more people in the high peak, and the Victoria Line has little spare room either. So you'd end up with trains disgorging people at Finsbury Park who then find they have trouble continuing their journey. Running a few trains to King's Cross *may* help, but only if passengers aren't bound for the city. I suspect anyone who doesn't require Moorgate probably already uses a different route - for example if you live in Enfield then you can get the Piccadilly Line from Oakwood where at least you're guaranteed a seat.

Yes the Hertford Line itself has spare capacity, although only for all-stations or nearly-all-stations services. No chance of putting anything faster along there, even if it could be achieved on paper there's no chance it would work reliably in real life.

It's a shame Thameslink Programme, for all the money spent, is going to initially deliver very little relief to this situation.
bramling is online now  
Old 11th January 2017, 10:36   #20
jon0844
Doesn't buy Carnets
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: 1 Feb 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 20,916
Default

But the Northern City Line is a problem that isn't likely to see any major work for decades, and a lot of people either change at FPK or stay on to Highbury & Islington to change to the tube. So trains that turn (perhaps with more work in the area to facilitate somehow?) could allow for more trains to run.. so people taking them would obviously only want to go to FPK or perhaps on to King's Cross if that's better and feasible. Even if just in the peaks, as more trains go via StP.

It's just an idea to allow more trains to run somehow, shifting a lot more people per hour, if there's a capacity issue at Moorgate - which has been mentioned as being down to the size of the platform and escalators as much as anything else. As the 717s will move more people, it's going to be very busy down there as it is.
jon0844 is offline  
Old 11th January 2017, 14:22   #21
D365
Not a Class 40
Established Member
 
D365's Avatar
 
Join Date: 29 Jun 2012
Posts: 4,935
Default

Aside from T&C infrastructure, what's stopping Moorgate from turning around 18tph+ again? Would it be the fact that the Class 717s will carry a lot more passengers that 2x313?
D365 is offline  
Old 11th January 2017, 14:42   #22
mr_jrt
Member
 
Join Date: 30 May 2011
Posts: 716
Default

What was the reason the platforms tunnels at Moorgate couldn't be extended northwards to lengthen them? Even if it was only Moorgate and the surface stations that were enlarged, would it help matters if Essex Road and H&I were skipped by some longer services? It cannot be beyond the wit of man to achieve this - the Northern Line's platform tunnels were enlarged in the 1930s for longer trains, after all. Yes, these are bigger tunnels, but the principles are the same.
mr_jrt is offline  
Old 11th January 2017, 14:48   #23
D365
Not a Class 40
Established Member
 
D365's Avatar
 
Join Date: 29 Jun 2012
Posts: 4,935
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_jrt View Post
What was the reason the platforms tunnels at Moorgate couldn't be extended northwards to lengthen them?
Err, for starters there's the crossover chamber just north of the platforms.
D365 is offline  
Old 11th January 2017, 15:25   #24
Failed Unit
Established Member
 
Join Date: 26 Jan 2009
Location: Central Belt
Posts: 4,937
Default

Real radical pie in the sky thinking, extend southwards to join with a Southern or Southeastern Route - Cross rail 3. (OK probably too radical and expensive)

Welwyn Garden City - Dartford anyone?
Failed Unit is offline  
Old 11th January 2017, 18:30   #25
Class377/5
Established Member
 
Class377/5's Avatar
 
Join Date: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 5,594
Default

Idea is at Gordon Hill to allow the 4tph in high peak to terminate without causing issues with the 8tph going north of there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Failed Unit View Post
Real radical pie in the sky thinking, extend southwards to join with a Southern or Southeastern Route - Cross rail 3. (OK probably too radical and expensive)

Welwyn Garden City - Dartford anyone?
Ignores the issue that Dartford is 10 cars where as the NCL is limited to 6 cars and would require a complete rebuild of the whole line (platform length plus passenger loading's) plus the fact that south of Moorgate is the Central line on the same level so the line cannot be extended south without moving the Moorgate station on the NCL further underground.

This has been covered many times. Think it's actually a yearly debate!

Last edited by Class377/5; 11th January 2017 at 18:31. Reason: Double post
Class377/5 is offline  
Old 11th January 2017, 18:42   #26
Failed Unit
Established Member
 
Join Date: 26 Jan 2009
Location: Central Belt
Posts: 4,937
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Class377/5 View Post
Idea is at Gordon Hill to allow the 4tph in high peak to terminate without causing issues with the 8tph going north of there.



Ignores the issue that Dartford is 10 cars where as the NCL is limited to 6 cars and would require a complete rebuild of the whole line (platform length plus passenger loading's) plus the fact that south of Moorgate is the Central line on the same level so the line cannot be extended south without moving the Moorgate station on the NCL further underground.

This has been covered many times. Think it's actually a yearly debate!
Actaully it wasn't a serious suggestion and wasn't supposed to be taken as such. But if you are into point scoring you have won that one

However if you do want something serious - we don't know how many people will transfer to other services when the some great northern services transfer over to thameslink and crossrail opens.

I personally will have more options which I don't know which one I will take until it opens and I try them out.

1. Change at Finsbury Park as now.
2. Stay on to Farringdon and walk. (which may be more expensive)
3. Change at Farringdon to there underground or crossrail for Moorgate.

Many others will have the same options which may dampen demand for some of the Moorgate services. Not much help for the Hertford loop granted, but that combined with the other changes may make the route less crowded in the short term.

Last edited by Failed Unit; 11th January 2017 at 18:43.
Failed Unit is offline  
Old 11th January 2017, 19:01   #27
Class377/5
Established Member
 
Class377/5's Avatar
 
Join Date: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 5,594
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Failed Unit View Post
Actaully it wasn't a serious suggestion and wasn't supposed to be taken as such. But if you are into point scoring you have won that one

However if you do want something serious - we don't know how many people will transfer to other services when the some great northern services transfer over to thameslink and crossrail opens.

I personally will have more options which I don't know which one I will take until it opens and I try them out.

1. Change at Finsbury Park as now.
2. Stay on to Farringdon and walk. (which may be more expensive)
3. Change at Farringdon to there underground or crossrail for Moorgate.

Many others will have the same options which may dampen demand for some of the Moorgate services. Not much help for the Hertford loop granted, but that combined with the other changes may make the route less crowded in the short term.
Apologies if it seems like point scoring. And no I honestly didn't see you weren't being serious.

As for passenger transferring figures, that's a very good question. One I cannot personally answer.

Also many on the Moorgate line may now find Farringdon, City Thameslink or Blackfriars a better station to go to. I know of friends who walk from Liverpool Street to Blackfriars for commuting so it does happen. I think there will be a longer period from May 2018 until May 2019 where people try and figure out what is best for them. Disruption and using alternative routes will help this rocess too (yes there will always be disruptions before people ask, that cannot be 100% avoided).
Class377/5 is offline  
Old 11th January 2017, 19:08   #28
Failed Unit
Established Member
 
Join Date: 26 Jan 2009
Location: Central Belt
Posts: 4,937
Default

Yep. I will by trying out the various options myself. Personally I hope that I can use direct to Farringdon but if I need to pay a premium I will still head to Moorgate.

For interest how (m)any platforms on the Hertford loop can take 8 car trains.

At the moment if we have disruption on the WGC line Hertford gets ditched. Is that for the greater good or can't 8 coach services stop there anyway? Totally understand it is eating paths but I don't recall even when the London - Peterborough was routed that way (non-stop Hertford - Finsbury Park) it ever running as 8 coach.

Just wondering why in the recast Hertford- Core isn't considered. Always assumed it was platform length.
Failed Unit is offline  
Old 11th January 2017, 19:25   #29
mr_jrt
Member
 
Join Date: 30 May 2011
Posts: 716
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by D365 View Post
Err, for starters there's the crossover chamber just north of the platforms.
Ok, but you could in theory build a new crossover cavern north of there, then extend the current platforms into an expanded current cavern...?

(Don't worry all this is a hypothetical presuming this were financially justified)
mr_jrt is offline  
Old 11th January 2017, 19:34   #30
Failed Unit
Established Member
 
Join Date: 26 Jan 2009
Location: Central Belt
Posts: 4,937
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_jrt View Post
Ok, but you could in theory build a new crossover cavern north of there, then extend the current platforms into an expanded current cavern...?

(Don't worry all this is a hypothetical presuming this were financially justified)
I suspect if a big project was going to look into this it will be cross-rail 2. Currently planned from New Southgate. It is many years away but it could do something to ease the crush. Even if it is just give people from the Southern end of the route a different option. However not sure if demand / practically / risk of disruption will ever provide a spur to Gordon hill as well as new Southgate. I suspect if the need was their someone would have suggested it already as an option.
Failed Unit is offline  
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Tags
east coast main line, gordon hill, hertford loop

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 23:27.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8
© RailUK Forums 2005 - 2017