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Old 10th January 2017, 22:58   #16
Peter Mugridge
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Of course they would be within their rights to include Surbiton in the restrictions stations list.
Now it's been mentioned on here, watch out for it at the next update!
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Old 11th January 2017, 00:50   #17
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Now it's been mentioned on here, watch out for it at the next update!
I doubt it. Putting such a restriction in at Surbiton achieves nothing.
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Old 11th January 2017, 14:23   #18
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Originally Posted by infobleep View Post
Hpw much less busy are the Basingstoke and Alton trains? This stop at Surbiton twice an hour for each destination but only once an hour at Clapham Junction for each destination. For the other train it skips Clapham Junction but not Surbiton.

Of course they would be within their rights to include Surbiton in the restrictions stations list.
The fasts to Surbiton are a lot less busier after Surbiton once all the Surbiton passengers alight

The Basingstoke stoppers are overtaken around Weybridge by the Salisbury weasels, and I have heard passengers planning to change at Woking for a tight but doable +5 (ish) to join the Basingstoke stopper.
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Old 15th January 2017, 12:42   #19
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The media have picked up on this outrageous fare increase http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surr...sive-12454440; basically what SWT had was a structure that went like this:

Anytime Day Return - Monday-Friday morning peak
Offpeak Day return - Monday-Friday outside morning peak
Super-offpeak Day Return - Monday - Friday after 11am outbound, returning outside the evening peak; weekends anytime

Now they have removed the distinction between Monday-Friday and weekends, so you can no longer buy a super-off-peak ticket on Saturday/Sunday mornings, nor can you return during the non-existent evening peak, so basically they try and trick people into buying more expensive tickets.

(Note that the weekend and weekday tickets have slightly different conditions, but it's not a big difference).

It's particularly egregious to do this on Sundays, which are not busy and about one weekend in two are subject to some kind of maintenance work making journeys take twice as long as they should.
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Old 15th January 2017, 18:34   #20
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Weekends are very busy in to Waterloo, there are frequently overcrowding problems. There is a key difference between the Weekday and Weekend restrictions too. The Weekend tickets only bar arrivals at Waterloo between 0930 and 1200. So you can travel early to avoid the restrictions. The times the restrictions apply are generally very busy times at Weekends.
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Old 15th January 2017, 22:30   #21
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Originally Posted by TEW View Post
Weekends are very busy in to Waterloo, there are frequently overcrowding problems. There is a key difference between the Weekday and Weekend restrictions too. The Weekend tickets only bar arrivals at Waterloo between 0930 and 1200. So you can travel early to avoid the restrictions. The times the restrictions apply are generally very busy times at Weekends.
The problem I can forsee is heavy loadings on the first "off-peak" trains in the evening.

Wouldn't want to be in Overton or Whitchurch as the first off-peak train they can catch on a Sunday will be the 20:15 towards Exeter due to the 19:15 skipping those two stations!

---------

On an unrelated note regarding the restriction codes, I have noticed that the SWT website says 18:30 is the end of the peak restriction (https://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/ti...uper-off-peak/), however if you look at BR Fares the code restriction is "London Terminals: 04:30-10:59, & 16:30-19:00".

Mistake by whoever encoded the restriction codes?
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Old 16th January 2017, 03:39   #22
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Originally Posted by globetrotter View Post
This seems to be correct :

Restriction Code: UR

APPLICABLE DAYS

Saturday, Sunday & Public
Holidays

OUTWARD AND RETURN TRAVEL

If boarding at the stations
below, not valid on trains
departing:

London Terminals: 04:30-10:59
& 16:30-19:00

Vauxhall: 04:30-11:05 &
16:03-18:35

Queenstown Road: 04:30-11:05_&
16:03-18:35

Clapham Junction: 04:30-11:05
& 16:09-18:40

Any other station in London
Zones 1-6 not listed above:
04:30-10:59


Presumably you could travel by District Line to Wimbledon and return from there, as you then would not be "boarding" at any of the stations with PM restrictions.

No, that's the wrong text.

Actual text:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/UR

"Not valid on trains arriving: London Terminals: 09:31 – 11:59

If boarding at the stations below, not valid on trains departing:
London Terminals: 04:30-10:59 & 16:00-18:30
Vauxhall: 04:30-11:05 & 16:03-18:35
Queenstown Road: 04:30-11:05 & 16:03-18:35
Clapham Junction: 04:30-11:05 & 16:09-18:40
Any other station in London Zones 1-6 not listed above: 04:30-10:59."
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
They don't seem to have implemented it very well.

Woking - Radlett is missing a weekend super off-peak ticket, so it's cheaper on a weekday than a weekend. (since they have restricted the weekday ticket for sale on weekends)

Last edited by soil; 16th January 2017 at 03:39. Reason: Double post prevention system
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Old 16th January 2017, 03:54   #23
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I don't understand why they created a new ticket type. London Midland have a miles better structure whereby the restriction text explains what trains can and can't be used every day. They also have uniform restrictions for Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak (at least north of Rugby) which are the same both ways and in First and Standard class. South West Trains have a variation for all of these different things, exponentially increasing the combination of restrictions they're trying to enforce.

Then again LM haven't tried to enforce different restrictions on Saturdays and Sundays to weekdays - they're either the same or they don't apply at all. Quite what there is to be gained from SWT having different restrictions for Off-Peak (Day) First and Standard class restrictions is beyond me though. As is the slightly bizarre concept of First Class Weekend Super Off-Peak Day Return (!).

Then again, this change has had a very odd effect of making it very cheaper to buy one from Basingstoke to Bournemouth than buying XC Weekend First - I bet they haven't agreed to that!

Previously that would have been £27.80 single plus £10 Weekend First, £37.80. Now it's £29.10.
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Old 16th January 2017, 08:38   #24
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This is the culmination of a plan that's taken nearly 10 years to implement.

(Using Woking - Waterloo off peak day returns to illustrate)

Pre-2008
Off Peak: £9.80

2008
- Off Peak renamed Super Off Peak with weekday morning and evening restrictions added: £9.80
- New Off Peak tier created at 25% price premium: £12.00

2017
- Super Off Peak turned into weekday ticket only: £13.80
- Weekend Super Off Peak ticket created, with (different) morning and evening restrictions: £13.80
- Off Peak: £17.50

It's taken a while, but SWT have succeeded in ramping fares for most off peak travel by 25%, making them very expensive indeed compared with other ToCs. Ker-ching!

Comparisons for travel into London in Saturday morning "peak" from stations a similar distance from London:-

No prizes for guessing which TOC is levying the highest fare ...

£17.50 Woking - Waterloo

£16.70 Ebbsfleet International - St. Pancras HS1
£16.50 Beaconsfield - Marylebone
£13.90 Hemel Hempstead - Euston
£13.40 Ingatestone - Liverpool Street
£12.90 Harlow Town - Liverpool Street
£11.90 Sevenoaks - Charing Cross
£11.80 Maidenhead - Paddington
£10.10 Basildon - Fenchurch Street
£9.20 Horley - Victoria
£9.10 Knebworth - King's Cross
£9.10 Harpenden - St. Pancras
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Old 16th January 2017, 14:25   #25
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Just sent letter to my MP:

Quote:
I am writing to you with regards to SouthWest Trains; as of January 2017, they have implemented 27% fare increases on weekend fares.

Prior to 2008, there were two fare classes on trains to London - off-peak, and anytime. In 2008, a new class of fare was added, 'super off-peak', priced the same as the old off-peak fare, and the price of off-peak was increased by 25%.

The super-off-peak could be used any time on weekends, and after 12 noon on weekdays and returning outside the evening rush hour.

As of January 2017, South West Trains have removed existing super-off-peak tickets from sale on weekends, and have added a new 'weekend super-off-peak ticket'. This is restricted on trains arriving into London between 09:30 and noon, and leaving from London between 4pm and 6:30pm. This applies even on Sundays and on days when the trains are running at half speed due to maintenance work.

The morning restrictions make it more difficult to attend lunchtime restaurant reservations in London, and make a weekend day out a more stressful experience, as you must hurry to catch the 08:59 train, or face 25% higher fares until 11:29. Even more egregiously, passengers are charged extra for slower trains on days with maintenance works - on the 28th of January, for example, the last morning super-off-peak train is at 08:31 as journey times on that weekend are extended by 32 minutes, meaning that train is scheduled into Waterloo at 09:29, and subsequent trains are therefore no longer 'super-off-peak'.

The evening restrictions also create unnecessary confusion, as even if the travellers is travelling outside the morning restricted hours, they may not know what time they want to return, and facing a 2.5 hour blackout period, may end up buying an unneeded 'off-peak' ticket, which costs 27% more.

This is particularly problematic in view of the fact that although the National Rail Conditions of Travel allow a passenger to pay (including on board the train) the difference between the price of a super off-peak and off-peak ticket when travelling outside of the super-off-peak hours, in practice the guards and barriers at Waterloo will not permit a passenger to board a train with such a ticket, and will not advise passengers of the ability to purchase an excess.

The new weekend super-off-peak rules are unique to South West Trains, and the fares applicable from Woking are in any case already the most expensive in the London area:

Woking - London off-peak £17.50 return (£13.80 highly restricted super-off-peak) (24.66 miles) - 71p/mile
Harlow Mill - London (Greater Anglia) £17.10 (£13.40 super off-peak, which is unrestricted at weekends) (24.52 miles) - 70p/mile
Hemel Hempstead - London (London Midland) £13.90 return (24.53 miles) - 57p/mile
Knebworth - London (Thameslink) £13.50 (£9.10 weekend) return (25.06 miles) - 54p/mile
Hildenborough - London (Southeastern) £14.10 return (26.77 miles) - 53p/mile
East Tilbury - London (c2c) £13.10 (£10.10 weekends) (25.11 miles) - 52p/mile
Horley - London (Southern) £13.40 return (25.63 miles) - 52p/mile
Furze Platt- London (First Great Western) £11.80 return (25.48 miles) - 46p/mile
Great Missenden - London (Chiltern) £11.50 return (28.74 miles) - 40p/mile

Thus as you can see, at 71p/mile, even prior to the new weekend restrictions, off-peak fares from Woking were already more expensive than any other station located a similar distance from London.

Furthermore, the only similarly expensive off-peak fare, from Harlow Mill, has a super-off-peak ticket which can be used at any time on weekends. That means, that for unrestricted weekend travel, travel from Woking is 25% more expensive than the next most-expensive station (Hemel Hempstead), and double that of the cheapest (Knebworth).

I believe it is unacceptable that Woking residents thus suffer both the highest weekday off-peak and highest weekend fares in the South East, and would appreciate your assistance in addressing this issue, and in particular effecting a return to an unrestricted weekend super-off-peak, or at the utmost minimum, a super-off-peak ticket that is valid all day Sunday, as well as a suspension of restrictions on weekend days with maintenance works.

The new rules are designed to confuse, and the comparable fares and fare history show that the fair 'off-peak' fare is actually the 'super-off-peak' - the super-off-peak fare was introduced as a device not to encourage travel at quieter times, but to increase the cost of travel even outside of the rush hour. Therefore, given that 'super-off-peak' fares have been increased in line with the old 'off-peak' fare, the 'off-peak' fare should be cut to the price of the 'super-off-peak', and super-off-peak either scrapped, or made cheaper.
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Old 16th January 2017, 18:50   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FenMan View Post
This is the culmination of a plan that's taken nearly 10 years to implement.

(Using Woking - Waterloo off peak day returns to illustrate)

Pre-2008
Off Peak: £9.80

2008
- Off Peak renamed Super Off Peak with weekday morning and evening restrictions added: £9.80
- New Off Peak tier created at 25% price premium: £12.00

2017
- Super Off Peak turned into weekday ticket only: £13.80
- Weekend Super Off Peak ticket created, with (different) morning and evening restrictions: £13.80
- Off Peak: £17.50

It's taken a while, but SWT have succeeded in ramping fares for most off peak travel by 25%, making them very expensive indeed compared with other ToCs. Ker-ching!

Comparisons for travel into London in Saturday morning "peak" from stations a similar distance from London:-

No prizes for guessing which TOC is levying the highest fare ...

£17.50 Woking - Waterloo

£16.70 Ebbsfleet International - St. Pancras HS1
£16.50 Beaconsfield - Marylebone
£13.90 Hemel Hempstead - Euston
£13.40 Ingatestone - Liverpool Street
£12.90 Harlow Town - Liverpool Street
£11.90 Sevenoaks - Charing Cross
£11.80 Maidenhead - Paddington
£10.10 Basildon - Fenchurch Street
£9.20 Horley - Victoria
£9.10 Knebworth - King's Cross
£9.10 Harpenden - St. Pancras
Thinking off the top of my head, does the price reflect the quality of service? I see Govia Thameslink Railway companies, Southeastern Trains notwithstanding, seem to be among the cheapest.
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Old 16th January 2017, 19:01   #27
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Originally Posted by infobleep View Post
Thinking off the top of my head, does the price reflect the quality of service? I see Govia Thameslink Railway companies, Southeastern Trains notwithstanding, seem to be among the cheapest.
And does the price reflect the speed & frequency of the services?
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Old 16th January 2017, 21:22   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kite159 View Post
And does the price reflect the speed & frequency of the services?
Your wish is my command:-

Quote:
£17.50 Woking - Waterloo
- 13tph (excluding slows that are overtaken), 25-37 minutes
£16.70 Ebbsfleet International - St. Pancras HS1
- 4tph, 19-20 minutes
£16.50 Beaconsfield - Marylebone
- 3tph, 22-31 minutes
£13.90 Hemel Hempstead - Euston
- 4tph, 26-33 minutes
£13.40 Ingatestone - Liverpool Street
- 2ph, 29 minutes
£12.90 Harlow Town - Liverpool Street
- 4tph, 31-45 minutes
£11.90 Sevenoaks - Charing Cross
- 10tph, 36-50 minutes
£11.80 Maidenhead - Paddington
- 4tph, 43-46 minutes
£10.10 Basildon - Fenchurch Street
- 4tph, 43-46 minutes
£9.20 Horley - Victoria
1tph, 33 minutes. Also 2tph to London Bridge, 53-55 minutes
£9.10 Knebworth - King's Cross
2tph, 34-37 minutes
£9.10 Harpenden - St. Pancras
- 9tph, 25-38 minutes
Also the aim was to list stations equidistant to London.

Examples of stations further out with good/excellent service:-
£18.00 (GW) Reading*
£10.80 (TL), £18.20 Any, Brighton
£16.90 (GN), £16.60 (AGA), Cambridge
£13.80 Tonbridge
£15.80 Chelmsford

*Hilariously the SWT fare for Reading is more expensive, £18.40, for a far inferior service.

Now compare with equivalent SWT stations:-
£24.10 Basingstoke
£22.40 Farnborough Main
£36.40 Winchester
£27.30 Haslemere
£20.00 Guildford

I rest my case m'lud
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Old 16th January 2017, 21:33   #29
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Examples of stations further out with good/excellent service:-
£18.00 (GW) Reading*
£10.80 (TL), £18.20 Any, Brighton
£16.90 (GN), £16.60 (AGA), Cambridge
£13.80 Tonbridge
£15.80 Chelmsford

*Hilariously the SWT fare for Reading is more expensive, £18.40, for a far inferior service.
Where are you getting your fares from?

Reading is:

FGW:
£46 SDR
£27.40 SVR
£18.70 CDR

SWT:
£34.20 SOR
£32.80 SDR
£26.90 SVR
£18.40 CDR
£18.10 weekday SOD (super off-peak)
£15.60 weekend SOH (super off-peak)

None of the SWT fares are really worth it, but they are definitely cheaper, if only 30p (that weekday £18.10 SOD is particularly unappealing)
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Old 16th January 2017, 21:41   #30
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The new weekend super-off-peak rules are unique to South West Trains
Somehow I get the feeling other TOC's will now try and copy.
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