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Old 11th January 2017, 19:50   #31
Ediswan
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Originally Posted by mr_jrt View Post
That said, I'm presuming the map I linked to earlier has an error or two as with the points located where they're shown I can't see how you could reach platform 1 from the down line - fine when you're departing, but how on earth did they get trains into it!
I spotted that as well. It is possible with reversing of course, but at the cost of blocking the through lines while doing so. The current crossover to get down trains into platform 1 is just south of Holtwhites Hill, but nothing shown on that map series. Another mystery.
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Old 11th January 2017, 20:18   #32
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Yep. I will by trying out the various options myself. Personally I hope that I can use direct to Farringdon but if I need to pay a premium I will still head to Moorgate.

For interest how (m)any platforms on the Hertford loop can take 8 car trains.

At the moment if we have disruption on the WGC line Hertford gets ditched. Is that for the greater good or can't 8 coach services stop there anyway? Totally understand it is eating paths but I don't recall even when the London - Peterborough was routed that way (non-stop Hertford - Finsbury Park) it ever running as 8 coach.

Just wondering why in the recast Hertford- Core isn't considered. Always assumed it was platform length.
As I understand it there should be nothing stopping 387/700 calling there. 700019 has done some testing on the Hertford Loop.

I think, and it is think, the class 717 SDO database will be shared with the 700 one so its one system thats used on all three lengths of trains.

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I suspect if a big project was going to look into this it will be cross-rail 2. Currently planned from New Southgate. It is many years away but it could do something to ease the crush. Even if it is just give people from the Southern end of the route a different option. However not sure if demand / practically / risk of disruption will ever provide a spur to Gordon hill as well as new Southgate. I suspect if the need was their someone would have suggested it already as an option.
There is the increased tph + class 717 upgrade, then there is ATO on Moorgate route then Crossrail 2 upgrade to help deal with the loadings. How well it will do that is up for grabs.

I'm very in favour of Crossrail 2 having an interchange with the Hertford Line.
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Old 11th January 2017, 21:01   #33
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What was the reason the platforms tunnels at Moorgate couldn't be extended northwards to lengthen them? Even if it was only Moorgate and the surface stations that were enlarged, would it help matters if Essex Road and H&I were skipped by some longer services? It cannot be beyond the wit of man to achieve this - the Northern Line's platform tunnels were enlarged in the 1930s for longer trains, after all. Yes, these are bigger tunnels, but the principles are the same.
£££££.
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Old 11th January 2017, 22:27   #34
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I spotted that as well. It is possible with reversing of course, but at the cost of blocking the through lines while doing so. The current crossover to get down trains into platform 1 is just south of Holtwhites Hill, but nothing shown on that map series. Another mystery.
OS maps at that scale aren't totally infallible. Experienced that myself!

I don't think the down loop would have been regularly used as a loop, but for overnight stabling. Pre dieselisation not many trains started or finished there.
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Old 11th January 2017, 22:40   #35
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£££££.
The scissors crossover is pretty much immediately at the northern end of the platform tunnels. That would also have to be relocated northward too which would be some pretty serious and highly long-term dsruptive tunnel engineering (and risky with the Northern Line sitting immediately below the NCL tunnels). The capacity crunch on the Hertford Loop is nowhere near severe enough to justify the level of £££.

And having 'long' trains skip H&I is a non-starter - it is *the* interchange from the GN inners to the West End (and, to a lesser extent, north end of Vic Line to parts of the City), via the Vic Line (and increasingly the ELL and NLL too), so is the peak hour critical load point from the north. Not to mention the platform congestion problems that would be caused by gaps in calls.
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Old 11th January 2017, 22:46   #36
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£££££.
See below:

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Ok, but you could in theory build a new crossover cavern north of there, then extend the current platforms into an expanded current cavern...?

(Don't worry all this is a hypothetical presuming this were financially justified)
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Old 11th January 2017, 22:49   #37
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It is hard to tell the exit / entry a Highbury and Islington and where they go but it is where the train changes from sardine run to comfortable. Hardly surprising considering the extended number of interchanges on offer there. I have in the past used it to get to the Hammersmith area. A lot of others headed to those platforms as well.

Not all Victoria line passengers that may use Finsbury Park once the interchange improves.
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Old 12th January 2017, 05:19   #38
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As I understand it there should be nothing stopping 387/700 calling there. 700019 has done some testing on the Hertford Loop.

I think, and it is think, the class 717 SDO database will be shared with the 700 one so its one system thats used on all three lengths of trains.



There is the increased tph + class 717 upgrade, then there is ATO on Moorgate route then Crossrail 2 upgrade to help deal with the loadings. How well it will do that is up for grabs.

I'm very in favour of Crossrail 2 having an interchange with the Hertford Line.
We (the Hertford Loop) actually already have one Class 387 service a week already!

On a Saturday morning, 2P99 0325 PBO - KGX via HFN is booked for a Class 387. It is a 365 M-F, but on a Saturday it's a 387.

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Old 12th January 2017, 05:37   #39
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We (the Hertford Loop) actually already have one Class 387 service a week already!

On a Saturday morning, 2P99 0325 PBO - KGX via HFN is booked for a Class 387. It is a 365 M-F, but on a Saturday it's a 387.

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That a four or eight car?
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Old 12th January 2017, 06:12   #40
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That a four or eight car?
Four car. I'm not sure any stations on the Hertford loop can take 8 cars. Gordon Hill is out of space with 6. Hertford North might just be able to take 8 cars, but it would be pushing it.

An interesting note about this train (and it's reverse working, 2F99 0105 KGX - RYS via HFN) is that they are the only regularly timetabled trains to pass through Watton-At-Stone without calling there. Class 365s are unable to call at Crews Hill and Bayford due to incompatibility with the DOO monitors used there, but they can call at Watton. Although in these cases, they don't

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Old 12th January 2017, 08:50   #41
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What was the reason the platforms tunnels at Moorgate couldn't be extended northwards to lengthen them? Even if it was only Moorgate and the surface stations that were enlarged, would it help matters if Essex Road and H&I were skipped by some longer services? It cannot be beyond the wit of man to achieve this - the Northern Line's platform tunnels were enlarged in the 1930s for longer trains, after all. Yes, these are bigger tunnels, but the principles are the same.
Personally I think any work that was needed on Moorgate shouldve been lumped in with the Thameslink project just after the blockade at the Cross many years ago. The money will never be found for it now I reckon.
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Old 12th January 2017, 22:14   #42
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I think the idea is the turnback platform will move to the centre, thus easing throughout a little.

Perhaps in the fullness of time this will allow a more intensive service, although I don't see Gordon Hill being a major constraint on the Hertford line, when set against bigger constraints such as Moorgate.
Its is more of a constraint when the main ECML is closed through Welwyn and Intercity services are diverted via Hertford. Perhaps with a centre loop local services can use this to wait for faster ECML services to pass.

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You'd have to find a way to get more than 14tph into Moorgate first...

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I don't know about freight, and there seems to be capacity reserved for diversions, but it still seems that the Hertford Loop is relatively empty and underused normally.
I think larger freight has to go this way (W9?) as Welwyn is cleared for such freight. I believe its used for ECML (Humberside / Yorkshire) to Felixstowe freight when the route via Ely is closed and traffic has to travel via London.

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IIRC it was once capable of turning around 16tph+.
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The problem obviously is when the 717s get crush loaded in 20 years time and there's no scope to increase service frequencies further.

If Moorgate is an obvious bottleneck, I wonder if in the future a solution will be found by turning some trains back at Finsbury Park, which will still provide a good link to London. Passing loops could even enable some faster services, which would also relieve pressure on other stations.

Considering TfL will possibly take control (looking less likely at the moment) then I guess there's no chance that you might get some services intentionally diverted into King's Cross, but that's another option perhaps? Maybe still run by GTR and using ordinary 700s?
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Real radical pie in the sky thinking, extend southwards to join with a Southern or Southeastern Route - Cross rail 3. (OK probably too radical and expensive)

Welwyn Garden City - Dartford anyone?
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I suspect if a big project was going to look into this it will be cross-rail 2. Currently planned from New Southgate. It is many years away but it could do something to ease the crush. Even if it is just give people from the Southern end of the route a different option. However not sure if demand / practically / risk of disruption will ever provide a spur to Gordon hill as well as new Southgate. I suspect if the need was their someone would have suggested it already as an option.
I don't see Moorgate as a critical bottleneck as yet for the following reason. Crossrail 2 is proposing to terminate at New Southgate as well as operate on the Lea Valley. I would instead suggest extending the New Southgate terminating services through to Welwyn Garden City and not running Welwyn Garden City to Moorgate services with the capacity freed up at Moorgate being used to enhance Hertford North to Moorgate frequencies.
In terms of capacity at Moorgate whether its 14 /16 or 18tph can this not be improved with step back working similar to the Victoria Line? Walthamstow Central and Brixton both only have two platforms each.
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Old 13th January 2017, 01:00   #43
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Crossrail 2 is proposing to terminate at New Southgate as well as operate on the Lea Valley.
Word is that the New Southgate branch has, or is close to being, dropped.
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Old 13th January 2017, 19:48   #44
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I would instead suggest extending the New Southgate terminating services through to Welwyn Garden City and not running Welwyn Garden City to Moorgate services with the capacity freed up at Moorgate being used to enhance Hertford North to Moorgate frequencies.
I'm fairly sure that at peak hours the WGC service will be operated by Thameslink (4tph) using the eight-car Class 700/0s.
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Old 13th January 2017, 19:54   #45
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I'm fairly sure that at peak hours the WGC service will be operated by Thameslink (4tph) using the eight-car Class 700/0s.
The local service will be into Moorgate, as now just 4 tph as now.
2tph - from Cambridge (going into core)
2tph - from Welwyn into core calling at Hatfield, potters bar, new Barnet, oakleigh park, new Southgate and Finsbury Park.

So no improvement in terms of frequency, but people from some of these stations may move away from Moorgate as the core stations may work better.
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