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Old 11th January 2017, 15:58   #16
shredder1
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Originally Posted by Darandio View Post
I'm not disagreeing with you, i'm just saying that it is of no help to them in this thread, which is for assistance and advice.


Ah I see, no problem then
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No personal opinions, ah I see, keep up the good work then, I enjoy reading these posts.

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Old 11th January 2017, 18:14   #17
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Originally Posted by daikilo View Post
The bit that intrigues me is why the photocard was confiscated ...
It's called evidence gathering. If there's been an offence, it will be used as evidence of the offence. If there hasn't it can be returned, not that the train companies charge for photocards anyway.

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Has the correct process been used by revenue protection?
It looks like it has.
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Old 11th January 2017, 18:31   #18
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Sorry friend, I totally disagree and its because people accept these things, we allow these situations to continue, people with poor eyesight could make a simple mistake similar to this, laws are suppose to be based on reasonable assumption, sadly reality doesnt appear to visit here anymore.
If that were the case, the customer can submit supporting evidence from a doctor and discretion will likely be exercised.

It is up to the customer to submit evidence of mitigating factors.
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Old 11th January 2017, 19:37   #19
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What a way to treat a genuine customer, the guy makes a mistake and is potentially turned into a criminal, the sooner the laws change on issues like this the better.
It's "kind of" been suggested above, but essentially this wasn't a mistake, it was a deliberate calculation that it would be better to make a potential error and catch the train, than possibly miss the train and eliminate that particular risk of prosecution.

No matter how quickly that decision was made, or how much it relies on the OP's knowledge of the law or their temperament, the fact is that you do not accidentally decide not to bother checking your photocard, if you're unsure what order the number is in.

Before I worked on the railway I used to purchase weekly seasons, sometimes in a great hurry. Like many (most? I suppose) people, I had a ticket wallet into which I would insert my season, next to the photocard. I would be ready to insert the new ticket into the wallet after going through the barrier anyway, and knew I would need the photocard for the machine, therefore requiring a split second of planning on my walk to the station to swap the two actions around and ensure that I had in fact got the wallet, and thus correct photocard number, handy before I bought the ticket.

Now I do work on the railway, it is incredibly noticeable how people huff and puff when asked for their accompanying photocard, ask why I want to see it, or don't have it with them at all. Most people, however, are perfectly reasonable when the risk of high-value fraud is stated to them, because they don't want the railway to incur any more losses than it already does! The risk has been plainly stated here, too. Unfortunately there is every possibility that a station may have issued photocards with extremely similar numbers, so it is not always easy to say whether or not a ticket has been bought by or for someone else.
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Old 11th January 2017, 20:07   #20
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Originally Posted by tsr View Post
It's "kind of" been suggested above, but essentially this wasn't a mistake, it was a deliberate calculation that it would be better to make a potential error and catch the train, than possibly miss the train and eliminate that particular risk of prosecution.

No matter how quickly that decision was made, or how much it relies on the OP's knowledge of the law or their temperament, the fact is that you do not accidentally decide not to bother checking your photocard, if you're unsure what order the number is in.

Before I worked on the railway I used to purchase weekly seasons, sometimes in a great hurry. Like many (most? I suppose) people, I had a ticket wallet into which I would insert my season, next to the photocard. I would be ready to insert the new ticket into the wallet after going through the barrier anyway, and knew I would need the photocard for the machine, therefore requiring a split second of planning on my walk to the station to swap the two actions around and ensure that I had in fact got the wallet, and thus correct photocard number, handy before I bought the ticket.

Now I do work on the railway, it is incredibly noticeable how people huff and puff when asked for their accompanying photocard, ask why I want to see it, or don't have it with them at all. Most people, however, are perfectly reasonable when the risk of high-value fraud is stated to them, because they don't want the railway to incur any more losses than it already does! The risk has been plainly stated here, too. Unfortunately there is every possibility that a station may have issued photocards with extremely similar numbers, so it is not a given that a ticket has been bought by or for someone else.
Many thanks for your post but apparently I can`t answer you here ??,
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Old 11th January 2017, 20:15   #21
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Many thanks for your post but apparently I can`t answer you here ??,
You can start a new thread in the general forum and say pretty much anything you want - within reason.
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Old 11th January 2017, 20:16   #22
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You can start a new thread in the general forum and say pretty much anything you want - within reason.
Thanks very much Dale, appreciated mate
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Old 11th January 2017, 22:21   #23
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What a way to treat a genuine customer, the guy makes a mistake and is potentially turned into a criminal, the sooner the laws change on issues like this the better.
The sooner it's taken out of the hands of the TOC the better - it'll happen, or my name's not Donald Trump.
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Old 11th January 2017, 23:06   #24
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Originally Posted by shredder1 View Post
Sorry friend, I totally disagree and its because people accept these things, we allow these situations to continue, people with poor eyesight could make a simple mistake similar to this, laws are suppose to be based on reasonable assumption, sadly reality doesnt appear to visit here anymore.
No, they're not supposed to be on "Reasonable Assumption"... Strict liability offences are just that. You either went over the speed limit, or you didn't. You either had a valid ticket, or you don't.

Now, in the case of disabilities there might be a human rights argument about adjustment for that disability, but we're talking about an apparently able bodied person who was just too busy to make sure he did it right. Thats the risk you run when you cut corners, he made that choice, and ultimately the risk didn't pay off.

The Strict Liability rules are there with good reason - to prevent fraudulent use.
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Old 12th January 2017, 00:21   #25
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What a way to treat a genuine customer, the guy makes a mistake and is potentially turned into a criminal, the sooner the laws change on issues like this the better.
It's nothing to do with laws. It's about terms and conditions of travel. He made a mess of things, as was pointed out in the post. Yes, he may well have been genuine but who's to say.
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Old 12th January 2017, 01:44   #26
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It's nothing to do with laws. It's about terms and conditions of travel. He made a mess of things, as was pointed out in the post. Yes, he may well have been genuine but who's to say.
Really? If only that were true!
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Old 12th January 2017, 02:15   #27
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Consider this (genuine) story: for a while I held a season ticket from a major London terminal to a suburban station, renewing weekly at said London terminal.

One day, after leaving the ticket office, I noticed that the season ticket had a leading zero on my Photocard number (the photocard number was ABC 123, the number on the ticket was ABC 0123.) I went back to the ticket office, insisted the ticket be re-issued, and the clerk apologised and blamed the TIS.

Whether down to a bug in the TIS or operator error, had I used the ABC 0123 season ticket to travel, I would have been committing a strict liability offence, as the ticket I had been sold was not valid. I would have left myself open to byelaw prosecution because of this error, had I not spotted it and thought it a bit odd.

What if I hadn't noticed? What if I'd made the (perfectly reasonable) assumption that ABC 123 and ABC 0123, in Photocard world, are equivalent, and the leading zero made no difference?

I would have been committing a criminal offence due to a failure on the part of the Railway, for which the Railway could prosecute me, and have a reaonable shot at winning (or at least extracting a juicy settlement.) That can't be right.

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Old 12th January 2017, 03:02   #28
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I completely agree with the OPs opinion in regard to treating someone as a criminal for mistyping a few numbers.

How this can be enforced is beyond me, when there is no authentication on the numbers. The customer can type any number. So you are relying on the customer to perform a pretty complex task, using software with no authentication on the input. Then treating the customer as a criminal for typing in the wrong number.

Madness. But I expect it from the UK railways sadly.
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Old 12th January 2017, 03:57   #29
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The passenger was asked to type a number, they do not claim that it was too difficult for them, if that was the case they had the option to go to the ticket office.
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Old 12th January 2017, 08:12   #30
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I completely agree with the OPs opinion in regard to treating someone as a criminal for mistyping a few numbers.

How this can be enforced is beyond me, when there is no authentication on the numbers. The customer can type any number. So you are relying on the customer to perform a pretty complex task, using software with no authentication on the input. Then treating the customer as a criminal for typing in the wrong number.

Madness. But I expect it from the UK railways sadly.
It can be enforced because the terms and conditions of said ticket require you to enter the correct number of your photocard for your ticket to be valid.

If you do not have matching numbers then you are not in possession of a valid ticket to travel.

If you do not have a valid ticket for travel then you have committed an offence.


It simply can not be clearer.

If people cannot be held responsible for their actions then we may as well just give up the ghost now and retire from any sort of revenue protection.

If a person has a disability of any kind which prevents them for doing this task on a TVM then, if the booking office is there and open they can do that there plus the railway and its employees would show discretion to said person.

@Via Bank In your situation then yes you would have committed the offence of not having a valid ticket however you would have a perfectly reasonable explanation for this as any RPI or guard would see that the ticket was issued by a booking office and would know that the error was down to an employee of the railway and as such you wouldnt(or shouldnt) be prosecuted. But as you done the right thing which everyone should do and check their tickets are correct then you averted any undue stress to yourself.
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