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Old 8th January 2017, 12:34   #1
gpmartin
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Default Derby to Hinckley (Leicestershire)

Hello all

I want to travel from Derby to Hinckley, with an overnight stay. An off-peak return, valid on any train after 04:29, is available for £20.30, route any permitted. However, both National Rail and East Midlands Trains journey planners refuse to route via Leicester on this ticket at the time I want to travel (about 07:00 outward on 9/1, and about 16:00 return on 10/1), instead going via Tamworth and Nuneaton, with two changes and (usually) a longer journey.

Other tickets, including standard day return and anytime first return (both any permitted route), show as valid via Leicester. The only restriction on the off-peak return is BT, which says valid on any train after 04:29. However, it also states that "If travel is to/from or via Luton, Luton Airport Parkway or London restriction codes CI & CJ also apply." CI and CJ place limitations on use of trains arriving/departing St Pancras and Bedford at certain times. I can therefore only guess that this is why the journey planners are refusing to play ball: the journey is obviously not via those stations, but the trains from Derby to Leicester end up at St Pancras.

So two questions: (i) would the ticket be valid via Leicester (the terms of the ticket suggest yes, but National Rail says no - apparently incorrectly); and (ii) is it possible to get a valid itinerary via any other journey planner?

Many thanks.

Last edited by gpmartin; 8th January 2017 at 12:46.
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Old 8th January 2017, 13:03   #2
70014IronDuke
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpmartin View Post
Hello all

I want to travel from Derby to Hinckley, with an overnight stay. An off-peak return, valid on any train after 04:29, is available for £20.30, route any permitted. However, both National Rail and East Midlands Trains journey planners refuse to route via Leicester on this ticket at the time I want to travel (about 07:00 outward on 9/1, and about 16:00 return on 10/1), instead going via Tamworth and Nuneaton, with two changes and (usually) a longer journey.

Other tickets, including standard day return and anytime first return (both any permitted route), show as valid via Leicester. The only restriction on the off-peak return is BT, which says valid on any train after 04:29. However, it also states that "If travel is to/from or via Luton, Luton Airport Parkway or London restriction codes CI & CJ also apply." CI and CJ place limitations on use of trains arriving/departing St Pancras and Bedford at certain times. I can therefore only guess that this is why the journey planners are refusing to play ball: the journey is obviously not via those stations, but the trains from Derby to Leicester end up at St Pancras.

So two questions: (i) would the ticket be valid via Leicester (the terms of the ticket suggest yes, but National Rail says no - apparently incorrectly); and (ii) is it possible to get a valid itinerary via any other journey planner?

Many thanks.
I'm sure a wiser and more knowledgeable head than mine will come to a complete rescue on this soon. Just to say, this sounds barmy: the obvious route - given the service levels - is via Leicester.

Would it help if you split the tickets, either at Leicester or Narborough? If you choose South Wigston, you have to go on trains that stop there. Or even Loughborough?
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Old 8th January 2017, 16:51   #3
CyrusWuff
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The eNRT gives Derby - Tamworth - Nuneaton - Hinckley as 40.5 miles and Derby - Leicester - Hinckley as 44.25 miles, so the route via Leicester fails the shortest route test.

Derby is a member of Derby routeing group and Hinckley has Leicester and Nuneaton as possible routeing points, both of which pass a fares check using both current and NFM64 fares, so unless there's a negative easement, travel via Leicester is absolutely permitted.

I can't see an obvious negative easement, so I can only conclude there's a "hidden" restriction preventing a route via Leicester.
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Old 8th January 2017, 19:28   #4
30907
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ISTR we've had a similar problem before re trains ending up at STP, so I think the OP is right to surmise it in their case.
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Old 8th January 2017, 19:44   #5
mickulty
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For what it's worth - the booking system does show the £20.30 fare via Leicester for outbound trains where the Derby->Leicester leg leaves after 10:00 (IE would arrive in London outside the CI restriction).

But it also seems to show it for all the return journeys, even where the Leicester->Derby leg would, starting at London, fall foul of CJ ?????
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Old 8th January 2017, 22:56   #6
Qwerty133
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For what it's worth - the booking system does show the £20.30 fare via Leicester for outbound trains where the Derby->Leicester leg leaves after 10:00 (IE would arrive in London outside the CI restriction).

But it also seems to show it for all the return journeys, even where the Leicester->Derby leg would, starting at London, fall foul of CJ ?????
I really couldn't see any guard picking a passenger for going via Leicester on that ticket, and unless there are station restrictions a route can't be valid only some of the time (except for easements for engineering works or emergency ticket acceptance).
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Old 10th January 2017, 21:52   #7
gpmartin
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Thanks for the responses, everyone. So it does indeed sound like it *should* be valid, and I think it is unlikely to be challenged as it clearly is the most obvious route. As a general rule, what is the view off the forum on situations like this, where there is no obvious reason why National Rail Enquiries is saying that a ticket isn't valid? If a guard did take issue with the ticket, then presumably (in theory at least) could the passenger be prosecuted?

Interesting, and strange, that, as mickulty points out, the journey planner seems to be (inappropriately) applying CI but not CJ!
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Old 10th January 2017, 22:16   #8
sheff1
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Originally Posted by gpmartin View Post
Thanks for the responses, everyone. So it does indeed sound like it *should* be valid, and I think it is unlikely to be challenged as it clearly is the most obvious route. As a general rule, what is the view off the forum on situations like this, where there is no obvious reason why National Rail Enquiries is saying that a ticket isn't valid? If a guard did take issue with the ticket, then presumably (in theory at least) could the passenger be prosecuted?
There is no "should" about it. The route is valid as per the Routeing Guide and the Restriction Code confirms it is valid at that time.

If someone is using valid ticket I do not see why a prosecution would be attempted and, if it was, how it could possibly succeed.
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Old 11th January 2017, 00:56   #9
bb21
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However, it also states that "If travel is to/from or via Luton, Luton Airport Parkway or London restriction codes CI & CJ also apply." CI and CJ place limitations on use of trains arriving/departing St Pancras and Bedford at certain times. I can therefore only guess that this is why the journey planners are refusing to play ball: the journey is obviously not via those stations, but the trains from Derby to Leicester end up at St Pancras.
I remember a discussion with someone regarding some erroneous implementation of this additional ticket restriction, and that specific issue you raised indeed caused peak Up London trains to not show up in these cases.

It does not change the validity of the ticket, perfectly valid via Leicester.
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