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Old 10th January 2017, 12:08   #16
AlterEgo
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Originally Posted by anme View Post
AlterEgo's story actually suggests if the TOC does decide to take action, the OP will very likely be given a chance to settle out of court. From what we have heard, this is a far less serious case and prosecution for any offence is far from certain (although it cannot be ruled out).
Yes - substitute "will" for "may be" in my quote there. I rate the OP's chances of being offered a settlement as reasonably good.
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Old 10th January 2017, 17:34   #17
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I feel sorry for the OP, but it was rather silly to guess. This raises the same issue but if you accidentally typed in the wrong number perhaps if you had poor eyesight. You would end up in the same situation. The only way the railway will lose here if the ticket is shared by people who travel on different days and share the ticket. I suppose someone will do it and I suppose if allowed many more could. In essence the correct ticket was presented with a railcard but the numbers did not match. It is rather annoylingly pedantic IMO but I accept rules are rules.
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Old 10th January 2017, 17:38   #18
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If it is obvious some consecutive digits were swapped, or that a digit was missing or incorrectly typed, discretion would normally be exercised.
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Old 10th January 2017, 20:56   #19
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Thank you for the replies, and thank you for the support from some of you.
I will of course wait to see what happens, and wait to be contacted by the Prosecution Office.
I know that this was a silly thing to do, and yes being in a rush, as some of us are sometimes, didn't help my plight when I bought my weekly season ticket.
The mix up was the last 4 digits... the first three letters were correct, but the last 4 numbers were jumbled, completely the wrong order.

The ticket inspector could see clearly from my photo card that it was me, he saw my drivers licence too, and it was clear the the last 4 numbers on my ticket were jumbled up.
I feel that the treatment was harsh in this case, and a little humanity and discretion would have been nice.
And you're correct. I had to buy a ticket today, and will have to for the rest of the week, so it's win win for them.
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Old 10th January 2017, 22:58   #20
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If the ticket is invalid due to non-matching numbers, is it a strict liability offence?
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Old 10th January 2017, 23:02   #21
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If the ticket is invalid due to non-matching numbers, is it a strict liability offence?
Yes, Byelaw 18 - boarding a train to travel without a valid ticket.
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Old 11th January 2017, 09:18   #22
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If the photo was obvious, I guess the RPI could still take the ticket and photocard for a proper check (to see if either were tampered with) and look up the details supplied when the ticket was purchased, but then take no further action if everything checked out, besides making sure the ticket was re-issued with the correct number. Put the details on file, case closed.

At the end of the day, the fuss was caused by incorrectly guessing a rather important number. Just as you would be well advised to check bank account details properly before accepting payment, or making one to someone else's details.

Ultimately, just ignoring the issue and saying 'best get the ticket changed mate' might sound great, but what if there was something untoward going on?

I can imagine that I could do the same fraud if I so wanted. I have my photocard and get my wife one. Chances are the numbers will be fairly similar if I got both the same day.

Get my season and put on the right number. Write on my name as initial, surname. Her firstname begins J too. So J Morris would work for both.

Now she borrows my ticket and uses her photocard that doesn't match. Gets stopped, and says 'whoops, I must have mistyped my number' and hopes to get let off...

Clearly the photo and any other ID she would be carrying would match her face - it's the ticket that isn't actually hers. Even the address would check out. Where it would fail is if she gave her full name, which wouldn't then match the details on the application.

And so it's right that there's an investigation IMO.
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Old 11th January 2017, 19:20   #23
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Title of thread = "What am I being prosecuted for?"

I cannot see any evidence that the OP is being prosecuted.

So, the emotively worded title seems intended to catch all of our collective attention and make us believe that someone has been dealt with wrongly and is being prosecuted.

In the OP's own words, the inspector simply said 'the Prosecutions department will be in touch'.

I agree, it might have been better if the inspector had said 'the company will be in touch', but he did not say 'You will be prosecuted', which is the inference given by the OP's choice of words in his title.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kaygee276 View Post
Today I bought a weekly season ticket at a machine at Huntingdon rail station (to kings Cross). I was in a mega rush so I guessed my Railcard number. I always remember the first three letters, and I admit I guessed at the last 4 numbers.

That said, the best that can be done is to do as others have suggested. Buy tickets and keep them in hope that they can be refunded, wait for the letter from the TOC and be honest in your reply.

The inspector followed the proper process and 'blame' cannot be apportioned to anyone else through indignation, or any other feeling of dissatisfaction.

In simple terms, the OP consciously 'took a chance' and contributory negligence is the important factor in getting to where things are now.

Hopefully, the TOC will accept your version of events and maybe you can achieve a mutually satisfactory resolution without further action.

Last edited by Fare-Cop; 11th January 2017 at 19:22.
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Old 11th January 2017, 23:53   #24
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Originally Posted by Fare-Cop View Post
Title of thread = "What am I being prosecuted for?"In the OP's own words, the inspector simply said 'the Prosecutions department will be in touch'.

I agree, it might have been better if the inspector had said 'the company will be in touch', but he did not say 'You will be prosecuted', which is the inference given by the OP's choice of words.
I think a non railway employee would reasonably infer that the phrase "the prosecutions department will be in touch" means "you are going to be prosecuted".
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Old 12th January 2017, 22:40   #25
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Originally Posted by najaB View Post
Did the railcard number match the ticket or not? If not, you didn't have a valid ticket, simple as that.
While that is correct, I wonder to what extent that was made clear by the machine that issued the ticket? If the machine - when issuing a railcard season - displays an impossible-to-miss message pointing out that typing in the wrong number would result in the ticket being invalid and an attempt to travel with it being considered fraud, then the TOC would have a strong case. But I'm guessing the machine isn't programmed to do anything like that. If the machine asked for the railcard number without giving any indication of the importance of this information (and realistically, many passengers may genuinely not realize the importance of those numbers), the TOC's case against the OP becomes much weaker (and I wonder if you could even argue that the ticket would have been mis-sold?)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlterEgo View Post
Reason for the anecdote is: cases like that are why "season ticket does not match photocard" rings huge alarm bells and you are likely to be reported.

OP: In your case, there are several factors which lead me to believe you will be prosecuted for a lesser Byelaw offence rather than a serious RoRA offence:

1) This is a weekly season - these have no value if reported lost, so the scam I described above is not something they can reasonably suspect you of.

2) You can prove you paid for the ticket and therefore it is unlikely they can suspect you of picking up a lost of discarded ticket.

3) There is no evidence they can bring, of you deliberately attempting to avoid any fare.


Wait to hear from them and let us know how you get on.
I would presume the TOC must also have some means of checking the number that was on the OP's ticket, to see if it matches any photo-id cards currently in use (I would hope there is a database of photo-id numbers somewhere)? And I wonder whether, if so, that might influence their actions. Best case for the OP would seem to be that the number turns out not to match any photocard that exists. Worst case is that it matches a photocard owned by someone who lives in the same locality, which would arouse greater suspicions of fraud.

Last edited by DynamicSpirit; 12th January 2017 at 22:40. Reason: Double post prevention system
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Old 12th January 2017, 23:12   #26
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Originally Posted by DynamicSpirit View Post
If the machine asked for the railcard number without giving any indication of the importance of this information (and realistically, many passengers may genuinely not realize the importance of those numbers), the TOC's case against the OP becomes much weaker (and I wonder if you could even argue that the ticket would have been mis-sold?)
The machine would have asked the OP to enter their photocard number and they entered a different number - can't see how it was miss sold.
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Old 13th January 2017, 09:59   #27
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The machine would have asked the OP to enter their photocard number and they entered a different number - can't see how it was miss sold.
Indeed, it would make the ticket valid for the owner of the photo ID you entered. Perhaps you were buying it for someone else?

I store a lot of useful information on Google Keep. Security isn't fantastic so I don't recommend PIN numbers or anything, but it's perfect for stuff like this. Especially as you can take a photo of the photo card and store that.
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Old 13th January 2017, 10:04   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonmorris0844 View Post
I store a lot of useful information on Google Keep. Security isn't fantastic so I don't recommend PIN numbers or anything, but it's perfect for stuff like this. Especially as you can take a photo of the photo card and store that.
Or you could look at the photo card.
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Old 13th January 2017, 11:56   #29
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The letters I get each month emphasize that I must enter the photocard number on both tickets. This is further printed on each ticket (see attached).

Valid only with Photocard No.

If it said,

Enter a number, any number

I could understand it.
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Old 13th January 2017, 12:27   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boxy321 View Post
The letters I get each month emphasize that I must enter the photocard number on both tickets. This is further printed on each ticket (see attached).

Valid only with Photocard No.

If it said,

Enter a number, any number

I could understand it.
Me too, but when photocards came out they were a means of identification with booking offices. The photo went with the name, not the number.

One solution would be for the machine to block when the number clearly did not correspond with the name. An alternatuve, which I would favour, is that the photocard is read by a card reader so that no mistake can occur.
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