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Old 10th January 2017, 16:27   #1
kbrockie
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Default Excess for an OP to Anytime Upgrade

Hi there

Wondering if I were to upgrade the return portion of a OP Day return to use at peak time would I have to pay the fuil difference between the OPDR and ADR or just for 1 portion?

Journey is LBT-EDB return. Fare with railcard Anytime £8,45, OP £6.25.

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Old 10th January 2017, 16:29   #2
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With reference to the forum rules:
Quote:
Please remember many members do not understand rail “jargon” (including acronyms, station codes and specialist terms). Such terms should be correctly defined the first time they are used; codes and abbreviations must not be made up.
What is an OPDR or ADR when they're home?
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Last edited by najaB; 10th January 2017 at 16:32.
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Old 10th January 2017, 16:31   #3
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Assuming you mean off-peak to Anytime, the full difference is due for a change of ticket type excess.
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Old 10th January 2017, 22:48   #4
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Originally Posted by kbrockie View Post
Hi there

Wondering if I were to upgrade the return portion of a OP Day return to use at peak time would I have to pay the fuil difference between the OPDR and ADR or just for 1 portion?
These don't appear to be valid fare codes. But, whatever the ticket type it is the full difference (as detailed in our Fares Guide).
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbrockie View Post
Journey is LBT-EDB return. Fare with railcard Anytime £8,45, OP £6.25.
Fortunately these are valid station codes! For anyone without easy access to a computer, that's Larbert to Edinburgh
http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=...st=LBT&rlc=DIS

The cost of the excess is £2.20
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Old 11th January 2017, 20:30   #5
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Does this excess need to be paid before boarding the train (assuming the Ticket Office is open), or can it be paid on the train?
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Old 11th January 2017, 20:38   #6
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Originally Posted by paulweaver View Post
Does this excess need to be paid before boarding the train (assuming the Ticket Office is open), or can it be paid on the train?
If possible, before boarding.
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Old 11th January 2017, 20:45   #7
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Originally Posted by paulweaver View Post
Does this excess need to be paid before boarding the train (assuming the Ticket Office is open), or can it be paid on the train?
It's the same price, but where ticket inspections occur prior to boarding, the passenger can be sent to the ticket office.
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Old 11th January 2017, 23:51   #8
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Originally Posted by yorkie View Post
It's the same price, but where ticket inspections occur prior to boarding, the passenger can be sent to the ticket office.
Note that the new NRCoT allow a Penalty Fare to be charged for a ticket invalid due to time restrictions, which was not the case before. Therefore, I would say if there is a ticket office open you must do it before boarding. You can't do it at a TVM so one of those is not relevant.
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Old 12th January 2017, 00:41   #9
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Do Scotrail do penalty fares?
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Old 12th January 2017, 01:13   #10
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Do Scotrail do penalty fares?
No, and my understanding is that the legislation doesn't allow for a PF to be issued in these circumstances either.
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Old 12th January 2017, 01:43   #11
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Originally Posted by yorkie View Post
No, and my understanding is that the legislation doesn't allow for a PF to be issued in these circumstances either.
The penalty fare notice I was sat next to on Merseyrail today did not mention PFs being chargeable when using off peak tickets at peak times
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Old 12th January 2017, 01:45   #12
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The penalty fare notice I was sat next to on Merseyrail today did not mention PFs being chargeable when using off peak tickets at peak times
That's correct, they aren't.
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Old 12th January 2017, 02:19   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil Williams View Post
Note that the new NRCoT allow a Penalty Fare to be charged for a ticket invalid due to time restrictions, which was not the case before.
I don't see how anything has changed here. The new wording might be "simpler" but it doesn't change the actual Penalty Fares schemes it is merely attempting to summarise.

The SRA Policy which still governs all Penalty Fares schemes is unequivocal:

Quote:
Ticket restrictions. Many types of ticket cannot be used at certain times of day, on certain days of the week or on certain trains. These ticket restrictions can be complicated, and even familiar tickets such as cheap day returns can have different restrictions on different routes. If a passenger travels on a train on which their ticket is not valid, it is more likely that the restrictions were not properly explained to them than that they are deliberately trying to avoid paying the right fare. We believe that it is up to the train operators to make sure that each passenger understands the restrictions which apply to the ticket which they are sold. Under rule 7, a passenger may not be charged a penalty fare if he or she has a ticket for the journey which they are making that is not valid on that train only because of a ticket restriction. In these cases, the passenger only needs to pay the excess fare, in line with the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.
And the old wording supporting this is still present, now in 9.4:

Quote:
If you have an ‘off-peak’ or ‘super off-peak’ Ticket, correctly dated but invalid for the service on which you are travelling; you are using a route for which your Ticket is not valid; or you break your journey when you are not permitted to do so, you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Remember, Penalty Fares meant to offer a fast-track resolution in situations where it is reasonable to infer that the passenger is being dishonest and could (in principle) be prosecuted successfully under RORA. (Typically, the passenger ignored both unambiguous signage insisting that he or she pay before travelling and usable ticketing facilities.) Where the facts of a situation can also be explained reasonably in an alternative way that does not demonstrate deliberate evasion, then allowing a Penalty Fare to be issued is inappropriate, and I think that that's what the Rules are trying to cover here and why they have to err on the safe side.

You hold an Advance ticket that clearly states it's only valid on a different train? Safe to assume you know what you are doing and attempting to avoid buying a new one.

You hold an Off-Peak ticket that's invalid because of rarely-simple restrictions? The Penalty Fares system has to give you the benefit of the doubt for the reasons the policy lays out, but that doesn't preclude the direct use of RORA where sufficient evidence of deliberate evasion is present.

Last edited by furlong; 12th January 2017 at 02:21. Reason: Double post prevention system
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