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Old 13th September 2017, 08:50   #1
yorksrob
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Default My idea for reopening Buxton-Matlock

Moderator note: split from East Midlands franchise prospectus
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Originally Posted by edwin_m View Post
The fundamental problem with this route is that Manchester-Sheffield only gets two fast trains per hour so is much less than Manchester-Liverpool or Manchester-Leeds. With limited capacity on the Hope Valley it's likely any extra paths would be improving this service rather than bypassing Sheffield.
Which is why they need to reopen Matlock via Bakewell, in spite of the naysayers.
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Old 13th September 2017, 10:54   #2
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Which is why they need to reopen Matlock via Bakewell, in spite of the naysayers.
.........but wouldn`t it be cheaper to increase capacity on the Hope line ?
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Old 13th September 2017, 12:09   #3
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.........but wouldn`t it be cheaper to increase capacity on the Hope line ?
And offer far more benefits.

I'm not sure avoiding Sheffield is actually a good idea.

Whilst re-opening Matlock - Buxton might improve journey times between Derby / Leicester than Manchester, I'm not sure that's enough of a justification for that particular reopening.
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Old 13th September 2017, 13:29   #4
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I'm not sure avoiding Sheffield is actually a good idea.
Avoiding Sheffield is always a good idea.
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Old 13th September 2017, 13:44   #5
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If we are re-opening routes then the best one would be the Woodhead route, if you can fit a curve into Midland / Pond Street you don't need to re-open Victoria and won't need to reverse in Sheffield either.
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Old 13th September 2017, 13:44   #6
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.........but wouldn`t it be cheaper to increase capacity on the Hope line ?
How much money do you want to spend on improving capacity on a route that is already fairly indirect for some of the journeys it serves. As well as potentially opening up local/tourism opportunities and additional freight capacity southwards.
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Old 13th September 2017, 13:46   #7
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.........but wouldn`t it be cheaper to increase capacity on the Hope line ?
The Northern hub proposals for increased capacity are two passing loops to allow express trains to over take the stoppers and freight. I think this would increase capacity to 4tph fast and 1tph stopping. I don't think there has been any serious suggestion of more than 1 extra service during the next several years. If TPE ran another service then it would reduce pressure to split the Liverpool to Norwich service.
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Old 13th September 2017, 13:49   #8
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Originally Posted by A0wen View Post
And offer far more benefits.

I'm not sure avoiding Sheffield is actually a good idea.

Whilst re-opening Matlock - Buxton might improve journey times between Derby / Leicester than Manchester, I'm not sure that's enough of a justification for that particular reopening.
But how many people travelling from the North West to the East Midlands and beyond actually need to travel via Sheffield ? With Matlock-Buxton, you could use capacity on the Hope Valley for passengers who actually want to travel between Manchester and Sheffield, rather than dragging a lot of NW/SE passengers out of their way.
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Old 13th September 2017, 14:29   #9
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Avoiding Sheffield is always a good idea.
Now play nicely !
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Old 13th September 2017, 14:33   #10
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But how many people travelling from the North West to the East Midlands and beyond actually need to travel via Sheffield ? With Matlock-Buxton, you could use capacity on the Hope Valley for passengers who actually want to travel between Manchester and Sheffield, rather than dragging a lot of NW/SE passengers out of their way.
Operation Rio proved to an extent the lack of demand between Leicester, Derby and Manchester.

The loadings were diminished because Sheffield wasn't being served.
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Old 13th September 2017, 15:58   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yorksrob View Post
But how many people travelling from the North West to the East Midlands and beyond actually need to travel via Sheffield ? With Matlock-Buxton, you could use capacity on the Hope Valley for passengers who actually want to travel between Manchester and Sheffield, rather than dragging a lot of NW/SE passengers out of their way.
Matlock - Buxton is a big tourist attraction these days - there's no way it would be worth re-instating it when you consider the monumental cost and the loss of tourist income from cyclists/walkers. I agree with above that the Woodhead is the way to go - but here I get the feeling a joint road/rail tunnel would be the most cost effective option (but that's a whole other kettle of fish best avoided here!)
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Old 13th September 2017, 17:53   #12
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Operation Rio proved to an extent the lack of demand between Leicester, Derby and Manchester.

The loadings were diminished because Sheffield wasn't being served.
A short term service which probably wasn't much advertised and which I suspect didn't even have any advance purchase fares available, proves nothing.

Travel on a Liverpool to Nottingham service and you'll see that plenty of people travel "through" Sheffield on these services.
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Old 13th September 2017, 18:03   #13
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Matlock - Buxton is a big tourist attraction these days - there's no way it would be worth re-instating it when you consider the monumental cost and the loss of tourist income from cyclists/walkers. I agree with above that the Woodhead is the way to go - but here I get the feeling a joint road/rail tunnel would be the most cost effective option (but that's a whole other kettle of fish best avoided here!)
No, I don't think that Woodhead has as good a case for reopening. As the crow flies, it's not much shorter than the Hope Valley, it doesn't connect easily withSheffield Midland for connections as the Hope Valley, there aren't as many intermediate settlements as would be linked as the Peak line, the East-West freight traffic isn't as prominent, whereas there is already a substantial source of freight at Peak Forest which can be difficult to contain on the Hope.

I'm not dismissing Woodhead, particularly for longer distance East-West flows in the longer term. I just think that there are far more potential benefits which would come to the fore far sooner with the Peak line.
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Old 13th September 2017, 18:48   #14
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Originally Posted by A0wen View Post
And offer far more benefits.

I'm not sure avoiding Sheffield is actually a good idea.

Whilst re-opening Matlock - Buxton might improve journey times between Derby / Leicester than Manchester, I'm not sure that's enough of a justification for that particular reopening.
Perhaps better use could be made of an upgraded Derby to Stoke line. This would enable Nottingham - Derby - Stoke - Manchester services.

The line is currently too slow with lots of level crossings, so needs serious upgrading. It still might be easier to upgrade this than re-open routes closed many years ago.
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Old 13th September 2017, 19:53   #15
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Originally Posted by yorksrob View Post
.
I'm not dismissing Woodhead, particularly for longer distance East-West flows in the longer term. I just think that there are far more potential benefits which would come to the fore far sooner with the Peak line.
The problem is that the peak line would be very slow, and would risk being the S&C to the WCML, it is scenic but rambling.

Derby-Stoke is an interesting idea, I could see the case for an hourly train down there, although it is still very indirect and wouldn't be much/any quicker than the current service
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