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Old 17th February 2017, 12:01   #211
jcollins
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Originally Posted by Arctic Troll View Post
Most concessionary schemes before ENCTS didn't provide for free travel for pensioners. There was a brief time when there was a hybrid system of free travel, but only in the local area, but predominantly in history pensioners have had to pay for their bus travel, albeit at a reduced rate.
In the former Macclesfield borough I'm aware pre-ENCTS the scheme was over 60s got offered a choice of:
1. Free senior railcard.
2. Free bus pass.

If they chose the latter they got free bus travel on journeys starting and ending in the borough (with an exception of pre-09:30 on weekdays.) So if they got on the Macclesfield to Manchester bus in Macclesfield they could stay on until Manchester without paying but if they broke their journey in Cheadle they then had to pay for the Cheadle-Manchester leg or go back south to Handforth and then travel north to Manchester.

I'm not sure how long the pre-ENCTS scheme ran for.
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Old 17th February 2017, 12:02   #212
Arctic Troll
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16,000 in savings excludes you from getting most benefits
It's not quite as simple as that. 16k+ savings excludes you entirely, but any amount over 6k gives you a "deemed income" that reduces your benefit entitlement. This deemed income also applies to pensioners but- quelle surprise- at a more preferential rate.

You're right in saying that if you splurge all your savings on the house/car just before you become unemployed then you may get more benefits, as you won't have the effect of this deemed income. But also bear in mind that it depends what you bought and when you bought it: if the DWP think you've deliberately got rid of savings then they can take it into account regardless.
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Old 17th February 2017, 12:08   #213
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All this talk of "jealousy"
Calling someone "jealous" seems to be a catch all response now to any injustice. No matter how wrong something is, if you are jealous about it, that makes it OK.

The top priority is to make public transport services as attractive as possible so that as many people as possible leave their cars at home. (Note, I don't just say "bus". I mean local public transport as a whole). It is hard to see how this free travel scheme achieves that given that the people who the scheme is aimed at are less likely to be driving compared to most of the population.

Offering free travel to pensioners doesn't make England more civilised than other countries. In the Netherlands for example, over 65s only get 34% off (although it is 34% off bus, tram and metro, not just bus) and it is hard to argue that England is more civilised than the Netherlands!
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Old 17th February 2017, 13:54   #214
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Arctic Troll.

To suggest that I am whinging and accuse people of being Jealous , a word that I never used , is somewhat unfair,

Just trying to be a "devil's advocate" and try to see both sides of a discussion does not mean I am whinging.

I certainly see all sides and as I stated would be quite happy to pay part costs.
It seems to me the other way round that many people seem Jealous ___ there I have used the word here ----of what pensioners get. .

I also agree with you that a large part of benefits go to the pensioners but what is the alternative ?

Perhaps some of the huge amounts wasted by goverments and councils could be better spent.
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Old 17th February 2017, 15:11   #215
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I would suggest this is very unlikely unless you have any real life examples.
Until Nottingham City Council refused to pay for passes on the Red Arrow out of Nottingham this was a regular occurrence for passengers travelling towards Derby waiting to board at QMC in the evening peak on Wednesdays when the Theater Royal / Royal Concert Hall had a matinee on. Quite often the bus would be leaving passengers behind at Parliament Street as well.

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Old 17th February 2017, 15:41   #216
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Until Nottingham City Council refused to pay for passes on the Red Arrow out of Nottingham this was a regular occurrence for passengers travelling towards Derby waiting to board at QMC in the evening peak on Wednesdays when the Theater Royal / Royal Concert Hall had a matinee on. Quite often the bus would be leaving passengers behind at Parliament Street as well.
ENCTS passes are no longer valid on any Red Arrow leaving Nottingham.
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Old 17th February 2017, 16:09   #217
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What if 10 full fare passengers (of let's say 4.50) are left behind because the bus is full of free pass holders ?
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I would suggest this is very unlikely unless you have any real life examples.
I've seen the first Arriva Scarborough-Whitby service after 09:30 leave with paying passengers standing due to the number of over 60s travelling. As I've only seen it a couple of times it's possible on a different day it could leave someone behind but regardless of whether anyone was left behind it's a long way to stand to Robin Hoods Bay (where some people get off) which may cause fare paying passengers to stop using the bus.
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Old 17th February 2017, 16:15   #218
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I benefit from the London freedom pass, which is much more beneficial than other areas, and also applies as a bus pass outside London. London has had similar benefits for many years which I have always paid for through my Council Tax or rates, and I do not feel at all guilty now that it is my turn to collect.
TfL also give free or discounted travel to under 15s, students, apprentices, war veterans and the disabled (and maybe others)- taking these with staff passes I wonder if many people need to pay at all!

I understand that tourist areas may lose out on pensioner travel; in theory it would be easy to charge the passenger's residential area, but this this would need a standardised charge back rate. Since the scheme was introduced technology has moved forward - think of touch and pay credit cards. If pensioners permit cards were set up as, effectively, t/p debit cards then they could automatically credit the bus company and debit the home authority.
The drawback is that all existing cards would need to be replaced as would all of the card readers, which would be very expensive and logistically a nightmare.
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Old 17th February 2017, 16:28   #219
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Originally Posted by radamfi View Post
Calling someone "jealous" seems to be a catch all response now to any injustice. No matter how wrong something is, if you are jealous about it, that makes it OK.

The top priority is to make public transport services as attractive as possible so that as many people as possible leave their cars at home. (Note, I don't just say "bus". I mean local public transport as a whole). It is hard to see how this free travel scheme achieves that given that the people who the scheme is aimed at are less likely to be driving compared to most of the population.

Offering free travel to pensioners doesn't make England more civilised than other countries. In the Netherlands for example, over 65s only get 34% off (although it is 34% off bus, tram and metro, not just bus) and it is hard to argue that England is more civilised than the Netherlands!
I agree with the principles outlined in your post but would add that the Netherlands probably pay a higher state pension.I think that you have to add all the benefits together to make a meaningful analysis. As I have stated in previous posts, the current funding arrangements are not sustainable. It is however for Parliament to sort out.
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Old 17th February 2017, 16:32   #220
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I understand that tourist areas may lose out on pensioner travel; in theory it would be easy to charge the passenger's residential area, but this this would need a standardised charge back rate. Since the scheme was introduced technology has moved forward - think of touch and pay credit cards. If pensioners permit cards were set up as, effectively, t/p debit cards then they could automatically credit the bus company and debit the home authority.
The drawback is that all existing cards would need to be replaced as would all of the card readers, which would be very expensive and logistically a nightmare.
Senior tourists visiting an area should improve the area's economy.
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Old 17th February 2017, 16:32   #221
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The idea of only giving bus passes to people who either don't drive or are prepared to give up their motorcars is unreasonable.

Somebody mentioned "well off " pensioners getting the benefit of the pass but a single mother , working and having children have to pay full fares,
Those mothers get housing benefit and child allowances etc

I am begrudged my bus pass but I have never begrudged my taxes being used to help pay for other peoples children .

Perhaps a good compromise would be a yearly fee of say 20 for the pass .With the millions of pensioners paying that it would bring in a large sum to offset the cost of the pass.

Graham
why should pensioner benefits NOT be means tested like all benefits... you mention about housing benefit and child allowances.... don't you realise that ANYONE can claim a benefit IF they qualify? the crux of my argument was that ALL benefits should be means tested.... at the end of the day concessionary travel is a benefit as is the winter fuel payment..

if those were means tested like all other benefits then they would be withdrawn from those who don't need them... and then could be given to others in groups not presently covered such as single working mothers on low income...

as you believe you would lose out then I can only assume that you are a comfortably off pensioner and I personally find it offensive that my taxes are going towards paying for handouts to someone who doesn't need them!
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Old 17th February 2017, 16:42   #222
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Senior tourists visiting an area should improve the area's economy.
Having worked as a tour driver I can assure you that the only real beneficiaries of pensioners visiting a town are the charity shops and tea rooms
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Old 17th February 2017, 16:45   #223
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Senior tourists visiting an area should improve the area's economy.
Like I said earlier in the thread any incentive to get more people to go to a tourist area will improve that area's economy so why only incentivise pensioners?

Also are pensioners going because of ENCTS or are they taking advantage of ENCTS on trips they would have taken regardless?
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Old 17th February 2017, 16:48   #224
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Having worked as a tour driver I can assure you that the only real beneficiaries of pensioners visiting a town are the charity shops and tea rooms
Which hire people who earn money, with some of those earnings being spent in the local area, and so on.
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Old 17th February 2017, 17:43   #225
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But when I go to a town for a day trip I also spend money there. But nobody pays my bus fare.

Besides which, I'd wager that people who tourist because the bus is free, but wouldn't if the bus fare was eight quid, aren't really the sort to be dropping stacks of twenties in every shop in town. If they're not going to go to Whitby because they have to pay, they're going to be just as tight fisted when they get there.
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