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Old 17th February 2017, 15:12   #11806
Barn
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Originally Posted by OneOffDave View Post
As mentioned upthread, the uncertainty can be really stressful, especially where you are doing the journey frequently and this is on top of the usual commuting stresses
This is a good point, and one which we should all remember, including sceptics of the strikes like me.

It's easy to rationalise that, on one level, if a lack of guard cancels a train, a disabled person would not have been able to board it anyway, whereas with the OBS model at least the train can continue in normal service and reduce congestion.

But I entirely appreciate that the uncertainty must be a real source of stress, anxiety and frustration, to the extent that it might reduce disabled travellers' confidence to take a job in London.

Similar uncertainty has, after all, been the major cause of stress, anxiety and frustration in all commuters on the GTR network during the travails there and it would clearly be wrong to wish that on disabled travellers on a permanent basis.

I think my only qualification to the above is that we should be happy to investigate all methods of dealing with the issue, including technological changes (automatic ramps, etc) and greater use of station staff.
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Old 17th February 2017, 15:27   #11807
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Why is all that necessary on the GB rail network but seemingly not on the Berlin U-Bahn?
Well its a bit different staying near the cab.. to having to walk 3 coaches away to load a passenger. Drivers can't leave the cab active and walk away down the platform. Unfortunately you never know what kind of person might just gain access to the cab (etc etc).

I also don't write the rulebook so can't answer why the German Operation on U-bahn is different to GB Rail.
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Old 17th February 2017, 15:42   #11808
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Originally Posted by AlterEgo View Post
Why is all that necessary on the GB rail network but seemingly not on the Berlin U-Bahn?
Or the Munich S-Bahn?
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Old 17th February 2017, 16:03   #11809
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Ok so let's say that all trains are changed so there is a wheelchair area behind the driver at both ends with an accessible toilet, so you have two wheelchair areas and two accessible toilets, one at either end of the unit. What happens where drivers are required to change ends mid journey? How do you factor in the addition dwell times of the driver getting out of their cab, accessing the ramp etc and then getting back in their cab? What about platforms that tapper at the ends so there isn't the room to get a wheelchair off?
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Old 17th February 2017, 16:19   #11810
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Originally Posted by AlterEgo View Post
Why is all that necessary on the GB rail network but seemingly not on the Berlin U-Bahn?
You are trying to compare one underground system in one German city against the whole national network in the UK, surely the comparison your looking for is one national network ie Germany against one national network ie UK.
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Old 17th February 2017, 18:01   #11811
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You are trying to compare one underground system in one German city against the whole national network in the UK, surely the comparison your looking for is one national network ie Germany against one national network ie UK.
Well, why not explain why, if the disabled area was placed behind the driver, that the driver couldn't perform that assistance 99% of the time on the GB national network?

Of course, the driver currently has to secure his cab, etc, but on several Western European systems we've read now, that is not deemed necessary. It seems to be a mix of culture and risk appetite. Trains which have a large window into the cab from the passenger saloon don't exist on the GB network, but do elsewhere in Europe, which I have often ascribed to cultural differences.
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Old 17th February 2017, 18:28   #11812
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Originally Posted by AlterEgo View Post
Well, why not explain why, if the disabled area was placed behind the driver, that the driver couldn't perform that assistance 99% of the time on the GB national network?
It's a hypothetical question. The disabled area isn't placed behind the driver on most British trains, and no-one is seriously suggesting that train drivers should regularly provide assistance to wheelchair users as far as I know.

Is it beyond the power of man to design a wheelchair which can be easily moved on and off a train by the user without assistance, or alternatively fit trains with retractable ramps which could be monitored from the cab by CCTV?
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Old 17th February 2017, 20:18   #11813
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It's a hypothetical question. The disabled area isn't placed behind the driver on most British trains, and no-one is seriously suggesting that train drivers should regularly provide assistance to wheelchair users as far as I know.

Is it beyond the power of man to design a wheelchair which can be easily moved on and off a train by the user without assistance, or alternatively fit trains with retractable ramps which could be monitored from the cab by CCTV?
Who knows?

I wasn't seriously suggesting this was feasible in the next 10 years or so, but it's interesting to observe the cultural differences as well as the perception of the role of a driver.
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Old 17th February 2017, 20:31   #11814
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Originally Posted by OneOffDave View Post
Even on trains with guards, booking in advance makes scant assurance that assistance will be available. I book my weekly commuting journeys on a Saturday for the following week. This week there was no assistance on Wednesday, Thursday and today and I was helped onto the train by another passenger each time. This isn't that unusual and last week I had to get myself and my wheelchair off the train to avoid being carried back the way I'd come. If the situation is like this now with guards on the train, I dread to think what it's going to be like once they've gone.
Where were the 'Guards' when this was going on?

What line are you on?
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Old 17th February 2017, 20:36   #11815
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There is no intention to remove OBSs in the short term anyway and Southern have said this, in writing,
So where is the money saving if Southern are keep the OBS on the trains?
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Old 17th February 2017, 20:55   #11816
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So where is the money saving if Southern are keep the OBS on the trains?
Fewer delay or cancellation fines from having to cancel trains if no guards are available.
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Old 17th February 2017, 20:58   #11817
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Fewer delay or cancellation fines from having to cancel trains if no guards are available.
What are the current costs of all the trains currently cancelled because no guard is available?

Why isnt there a guard available in the first place?
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Old 17th February 2017, 21:10   #11818
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Why isnt there a guard available in the first place?
Could be they're on strike, or an incident somewhere has left staff in the wrong place. On the former point, I'd expect that reducing the ability of the RMT to shut down the network is one of the motivations for DOO.
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Old 17th February 2017, 21:15   #11819
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Could be they're on strike, or an incident somewhere has left staff in the wrong place. On the former point, I'd expect that reducing the ability of the RMT to shut down the network is one of the motivations for DOO.
Apart from the ongoing dispute on Southern when was the last strike?
You lot make it sound as if its a weekly occurrence!

Its more likely to be because the company have not kept up with recruitment as guards have moved on or retired which I dont see as a valid reason to get rid of the grade, unlike some on here.
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Old 17th February 2017, 21:40   #11820
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Originally Posted by AlterEgo View Post
Well, why not explain why, if the disabled area was placed behind the driver, that the driver couldn't perform that assistance 99% of the time on the GB national network?

Of course, the driver currently has to secure his cab, etc, but on several Western European systems we've read now, that is not deemed necessary. It seems to be a mix of culture and risk appetite. Trains which have a large window into the cab from the passenger saloon don't exist on the GB network, but do elsewhere in Europe, which I have often ascribed to cultural differences.
Lots of things are different in Europe. I Holland coffee shops allow people to buy and smoke certain substances. Do that here and you might get arrested. So the world is full of cultural differences.

Just because it's culturally acceptable in one country doesn't mean it is in another or people even want it to be.
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